What exactly is the appeal of Jon Snow?

[Dany4eva]

And also, if we take the show into consideration. Kit harington is enough reason to love jon snow.

[Masamune]

And also, if we take the show into consideration. Kit harington is enough reason to love jon snow.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3sbihFd1a1r9s61oo1_400.gif

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

as butterbumps said, the whole "wildlings are men too" thing another big one.

Jon has spent his life being scorned by Catelyn for an imagined disgrace he brought down on her by simply being born, yet he never lashes back at any Stark. After visiting Bran and before departing for the wall, he tells Robb she treated him kindly even though she treated him horribly. He could have easily whined to Robb and had good cause, but he doesn't play like that.

[Ghost Rider]

I felt he was more curious than anything with the mother. He lost them very distantly and the pain was not as severe as say the other Starks who directly witnessed eachothers deaths (cept Bran).

What do you mean with "lost them very distantly"? Robb also didn't directly witness the supposed death of Bran and Rickon and still nobody thinks that he just shrugs those death off. Neither did Sansa and Arya witness those "deaths" with their own eyes, they did witness Ned Stark's death though. I don't think territorial distance matters much, where these things are concerned. Jon lost his father too, incidentally the person who could telll him about his mother.

See also his reaction to Ned's imprisonment; does that somehow strike you as indifferent? He knew the consequences of his actions then, he just didn't care. Jon is much more passionate then many give him credit for. Jon does show his feelings when they overwhelm him, but usually he expresses himself via his actions.

After the battle on the Wall in ASOS, he is criticized for being passive when the LC was elected. What I see is a boy who has accepted his death that will (in his mind) come necessarily with the election of Janos Slynt. Now it's probably coincidence that Jon has learnt recently about Bran, Rickon, the RW and felt he killed Ygritte ....

Hes really pacific about everything to do with that loss and even when Ygritte died.

Yeah, right. He only wants to bring death and destruction on House Lannister. About Ygritte: he knew their love was doomed when he made for the Wall in ASOS. She shot an arrow at him, that nearly killed him. They are enemy combattants from that moment on.

Theres a sort of getting on with everything mentality that I find boderline callous in the man. (...)

Yes, everybody has different readings of characters, finds other things appealing. Jon's way to deal with his problems are just not appealing to you; others react very differently. I for one never thought of Jon as either boring or cold. He's one of the characters who have the least regard for their own life, which is admittedly hard to understand from the POV of most people. He repeatedly puts his life on the line without thinking too much of it, a truly heroic trait or possibly psychotic, rooting in either his need to prove himself as worthy to his own (high) standards and/or the little value he places in his life. I find fascinating that you can still get behind his decisions, understand how they are motivated, even though they are truly extraordinary in this regard.

Imho, it's much easier to motivate the actions of a character who is in for himself (an everyday occasion), then the actions of a heroic character like Jon (who are rare and exceptional). For some these kinds of characters seem also easier to empathize with.

[Lord Tyrion]

as butterbumps said, the whole "wildlings are men too" thing another big one.

Jon has spent his life being scorned by Catelyn for an imagined disgrace he brought down on her by simply being born, yet he never lashes back at any Stark. After visiting Bran and before departing for the wall, he tells Robb she treated him kindly even though she treated him horribly. He could have easily whined to Robb and had good cause, but he doesn't play like that.

That's something Theon would have probably done just because he's annoying like that.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

When Martin has trampled and torn apart other fantasy archtypes; almost to the point of being satirical. It makes his upholding of Jon difficult to take seriously. He reads like a character out of Feists work or one of the Books of Shannara or something like that. Hell maybe even a bit like Gaunt out of the 40k Ghost series. Such characters have a place in those books but it just feels obnoxious and as if hes telling me to be impressed by this man in Ice n Fire.

So good people who have flaws but they try to do the right thing and they try to help others and they don't just leave them to die or kill them to take their houses are satirical characters? How this is even possible?

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

Look at the way Jon handled the initial disappointment of being selected a steward instead of a ranger. Yea he was very upset, and it showed in his body language and tone. Any human would be. But he still listened to Aemon and said only the words that were appropriate. He didn't throw a tantrum like most people (Dany) would have done.

[Ghost Rider]

And also, if we take the show into consideration. Kit harington is enough reason to love jon snow.

Hmm... not really. Kit Harrington may be pretty (for the girls who are into the pretty boy with curls type), but he isn't at all Jon. For me, these two represent two very different characters who only have the name in common. I feel indifferent toward or even dislike clueless Jon Show, but love Book!Jon. I guess a more detailed discussion is not really warranted here though. :leaving:

[Julian Rayne]

I disagree. We know that Bowen hardly speaks for the "men of the Watch." What I took from the DwD chapters is that Bowen + Co increasingly form a fringe coterie of members who do not agree with Jon here.

But fine, let's say that they represent more men than I'm suggesting; let's think about why they don't agree with Jon, shall we?

Wildlings are bad

Wildlings are not men

We should seal the gate

Wun Wun is a dangerous monster

Satin is "too homosexual" to be Jon's steward

We hate wildlings

The issues that they harp on all come down to their irrational hatred and prejudice for certain people. That Bowen appeals to the fact that there is little food is completely disingenuous; it's all about the fact that he wants no wildlings.

I don't believe that what you said undermines Jon's abilities as a leader in any way. Again, there were many fringe dissenters who disagreed with the great men I already mentioned. In no way do I believe that the fact that they angered people to drastic action mitigates how great of leaders these people were. IMO, it says far more about the dissenters' being wrong and limited than it does about the leader being assassinated.

I agree with this. It's telling that his assassin and detractors have been shown to be motivated by racism, homophobia and religious fanaticism. Being targeted for assassination by that lot shows that he's doing something right.

[PatrickStormborn]

Look at the way Jon handled the initial disappointment of being selected a steward instead of a ranger. Yea he was very upset, and it showed in his body language and tone. Any human would be. But he still listened to Aemon and said only the words that were appropriate. He didn't throw a tantrum like most people (Dany) would have done.

Erm, he did throw a tantrum, actually. Not sure why Dany is relevant, because she faced a lot worse at a younger age (y'know, being sold to a foreign warlord who didn't speak her language), and she didn't throw a tantrum...

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

When Martin has trampled and torn apart other fantasy archtypes; almost to the point of being satirical. It makes his upholding of Jon difficult to take seriously. He reads like a character out of Feists work or one of the Books of Shannara or something like that. Hell maybe even a bit like Gaunt out of the 40k Ghost series. Such characters have a place in those books but it just feels obnoxious and as if hes telling me to be impressed by this man in Ice n Fire.

He knows and that is the very trap he is laying. He has been acting SO 'typically heroic' that we are being lulled to sleep. GRRM just has to make Jon fail in a surprising way, and he has successfully trampled the archetype.

If all we had were Theons, he wouldn't have an archetype to tear apart.

[Dany4eva]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3sbihFd1a1r9s61oo1_400.gif

Lolololol omg. That just makes him even cuter. U made my day :love:

[total1402]

So good people who have flaws but they try to do the right thing and they try to help others and they don't just leave them to die or kill them to take their houses are satirical characters? How this is even possible?

Good people who try to do the right thing and act in a fantasy way but fail and make things worse because of their own stupidity or the bad situation or misinformation. ie Catlyn siezing Tyrion without proof due to love of her son. Dany saving n trusting Miri Maz Duur because she was compassionate and her mudering her husband, child, breaking her hopes and proceeding to mock her afterwards. etc etc. Hes went out of his way to break certain archtypes and make them incredibly flawed to the point of inciting contempt in the reader. With Jon hes given him a free pass.

[danm_999]

Also, I don't think he suffered any real setbacks or suffered to anywhere near the extent of the other characters;

The fact you even posted this indicates you need to re-read Jon's POVs.

[total1402]

The fact you even posted this indicates you need to re-read Jon's POVs.

What setback or travail has he suffered? Hell, Sam at least faced down a White Walker and was in a position of weakness.

[David Selig]

I disagree. We know that Bowen hardly speaks for the "men of the Watch." What I took from the DwD chapters is that Bowen + Co increasingly form a fringe coterie of members who do not agree with Jon here.

But fine, let's say that they represent more men than I'm suggesting; let's think about why they don't agree with Jon, shall we?

Wildlings are bad

Wildlings are not men

We should seal the gate

Wun Wun is a dangerous monster

Satin is "too homosexual" to be Jon's steward

We hate wildlings

The issues that they harp on all come down to their irrational hatred and prejudice for certain people. That Bowen appeals to the fact that there is little food is completely disingenuous; it's all about the fact that he wants no wildlings.

I don't believe that what you said undermines Jon's abilities as a leader in any way. Again, there were many fringe dissenters who disagreed with the great men I already mentioned. In no way do I believe that the fact that they angered people to drastic action mitigates how great of leaders these people were. IMO, it says far more about the dissenters' being wrong and limited than it does about the leader being assassinated.

Let's accept your premise that Bowen is as bad morally and incompetent as you claim (I have my doubts, but let's leave this aside for now). Why did Jon kept him as what amount to his second or third in command then and didn't do anything to keep an eye on him? Isn't this a serious failure of leadership?

[Raja]

He's not an asshole , which certainly helps. I'm not sure about funny , witty or any of that . I think most of that is quite subjective , but I can only tell you why I like that character. It's simple really , I can relate to him .That may not be a good enough reason for you , and I can understand that . I find it hard to like Dany , but I can certainly see why others do . It's really what appeals to you as an individual. I like his friendship with Sam , his interactions with Ghost. It's not just the character I like , it's the setting on the wall which I enjoy as well . For me characters don't need to have certain qualities to like them , it's just a sort of gradual thing that happens. There are no check boxes they need to tick .

With reference to his interaction with others , well I'll certainly agree that his interaction with Stannis / Aemon / Tormund make up a bulk of beats I like about the character. But I think you can find that with almost everyone . Theon , Dany , Asha , to name a few. It's what makes the series so so good , that sure the main POV characters are great , but so are almost all of the non-pov characters.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Good people who try to do the right thing and act in a fantasy way but fail and make things worse because of their own stupidity or the bad situation or misinformation.

I don't see an action that Jon did is such a bad choice as Dany's (the Great Masters for example). What he did as he was told,his father told him to be honorable and just. This is his way, that doesn't make him a satirical character it makes him a good character.

[total1402]

I don't see an action that Jon did is such a bad choice as Dany's (the Great Masters for example). What he did as he was told,his father told him to be honorable and just. This is his way, that doesn't make him a satirical character it makes him a good character.

You're missing the point. I'am saying Martin satirises/subverts/degrades most of the other POV characters and that Jon escapes this treatment. He is not subverted as an archtype. He is an archtype. If you put a Commisars cap on his head and gave him a bolt pistol he'd make a good stand in for Gaunt. The character felt like a Mary Sue to me for this reason. It feels jarring given how Ice and Fire treats the rest of the characters.

[turinturambar1]

JON given a free pass , what books do you read ????????