What exactly is the appeal of Jon Snow?

[Ghost Rider]

It's not hard to understand that a generic character from an overused archetype might feel less interesting to read about than characters with an original spin. It's about originality.

The problem might be that you don't see a spin, while others do see the spin, an originality, something that makes Jon special and loved. But it's pretty hard to discuss in such general terms without a closer look at the character. I've said e.g. that Jon has elements of the outcast and the hero archetype. I don't think we need to discuss outcast, he is only one of several in the story, besided e.g. Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Theon...

About the hero: He is not the type of hero who goes out with a blazing sword, slaying thousands of baddies with the pure power of his awesomeness. :D That would be a stereotypical hero. Jon is good with a blade, which is only to be expected in a boy who is trained from an early age for the profession warrior. But his martial prowess surely does not make him stand out in the context of asoiaf, other characters are more noted for it. (e.g. Jaime)

Character traits that are outstanding in Jon are his compassion and ability to empathize. His sparing of Ygritte is a good example. He could just as well have killed her and still not be considered a bad guy. It's all in the POV. Seeing her through Jon's eyes, we see a young girl, not much older then himself that he pitied, through the eyes of another person we might have seen an enemy spearwife that would have to be killed.

This same trait is even more pronounced when he decides to spare the old man. When he showed mercy upon Ygritte, the cost to him is "only" to disobey an order (as he sees it, even though it's not), while in the situation with the old man the cost of his decision is his life which is even more difficult because he knows that he won't be able to save the man in any case. This old man is what separates Jon from the Wildling in this very moment and it's not accidentally that Ygritte kill him and Jon leaves them and her. For the Wildlings the old man is an enemy (though not directly dangerous) that has to be killed (compare this to the Jon-Ygritte situation which is very similar in that respect, but the Wildlings do not feel merciful), to Jon he is an innocent who is just unfortunate.

I daresay a character who is less special or heroic in that sense, an everyday character would have killed in both situations, but especially in the second, considering that his life is forfeited for all he knows. Who of us would have the strength to act like Jon did in that situation? Such a person is very rare and some might think nonexistant, I really don't know. I think, that's what's so appealing about this particular archetype (provided they are written in a believable and nonstereotypical way). They go where noone dares to tread. Or at least where noone of us would know just how he would act when put in this kind of situation.

Sure, most of us think that Jon acts ethically correct, though I believe that Jon could justify any other position as well in his POV to us. He does not, because he is who he is and that's a person who acts with compassion even when it's most detrimental to him. Most of us can only hope to aspire to this kind of strength. Still, even though he is so extraordinary, he's sufficiently motivated that I believe just why he would act the way he does.

I don't really care what is supposed to "touch my subconscious", all I see is that if Jon is supposed to that, then GRRM failed hard.

Yeah, I can see that GRRM failed WRT you, but I think he succeeded with the vast majority of his readers.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Ghost Rider,

The problem is not that Jon makes moral choices (he does). It's that he keeps getting saved from the consequences of them,

Jon decides to desert and go to war with Robb? Sam saves him from the consequences.

Jon decides to let the Enemy escape because he can't kill a woman? Qhorin ignores it.

Jon doesn't want to kill Qhorin? Qhorin and Ghost force him to.

Jon decides not to kill the old man? Ygritte saves him from the consequences.

Jon is caught in a Mance dilemma? Stannis turns up just in time.

[SimonSez]

He's been scorched, scratched, shot, stabbed, and well there's what they say about what doesn't kill you. . . .

Also, realizing that he wasn't going to be like the bastard in King Lear was a good thing. And while on THAT subject:

Now ye gods, stand up for bastards!

[tze]

So you've found yourself dealing with giants and skinchangers, you're accidentally turning into a direwolf at all hours of the day and night, and you're in charge during an icy apocalypse instituted at the hands of terrifying mythical ice demons.

Ordinary People's Solution: Cry, go insane, or declare yourself a fairy-tale hero reborn.

Jon's Solution: Get a bank loan and try not to dwell too much on that whole wolf thing.

I adore this guy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So you've found yourself dealing with giants and skinchangers, you're accidentally turning into a direwolf at all hours of the day and night, and you're in charge during an icy apocalypse instituted at the hands of terrifying mythical ice demons.

Ordinary People's Solution: Cry, go insane, or declare yourself a fairy-tale hero reborn.

Jon's Solution: Get a bank loan and try not to dwell too much on that whole wolf thing.

I adore this guy.

Basically.

"You've gone down on a wildling girl. You've held the Wall. You've won the election. You've beheaded Slynt. You've signed the loan.

Now ... it's Miller time."

[Lord Damian]

Basically.

"You've gone down on a wildling girl. You've held the Wall. You've won the election. You've beheaded Slynt. You've signed the loan.

Now ... it's Miller time."

and you just turned down the offer to be the ruler of the North and take Winterfell as your seat.

[Fire Eater]

When we first meet Jon, he is a bastard and outcast. Because of his bastard status, he is without honor.

Snow is an outcast, yet he does not reject the honour culture in the way that Tyrion does. This is probably because of the two key differences between the two characters. Jon is still loved by his father and most of the rest of his family (with the exception of Catelyn) and he is a very good swordsman. He is able to act honourably, even if his bastard status block him from being honourable in the eyes of those around him.

You see an early example of his character when he suggests that the direwolf pups go to Ned's trueborn children since there are three boys and two girls just like Ned's three sons and two daughters, rather than be killed. He demonstrates both his intelligence when he puts two and two together, and his tendency to stand up for the weak and defenseless.

At the same time when we meet him he is not without his flaws, I wouldn't go so far as to call him spoiled as butterbumps! did, but like other boys, he has a high opinion of himself and a sense of entitlement when comes to join the NW. His attitude to the other recruits who were criminals, is similar to Alliser Thorne's as he despises them. When Donal Noye speaks to Jon, he points out to him that not everyone has had the advantages he's had, and Jon is actually smart and mature enough, even for his age, to take Noye's advice. He turns most of his enemies (recruits) into friends, showing some sympathy and even teaching them how to properly fight with sword and shield where Thorne fails to do. Jon also takes advice from Tyrion in: accept that you're a bastard so it won't bother you, and don't let their names get to you.

Jon again shows his tendency to defend the weak and defenseless when he stands up for Sam, and he also manages to convince Maester Aemon to take Sam as a steward for his safety where he again demonstrates his intelligence, even Aemon is impressed by Jon's wits.

He joins Ygritte and the wildlings as a supposed turncloak under orders from Qhorin. Up until then, all he knew about the wildlings he heard from Old Nan, and the members of the NW who fight them, Jon gets a better look at wildling culture, and sees that they're just like people south of the Wall only with different ideas and beliefs. He also deals with his own internal struggles, as he considers leaving the NW to be with Ygritte, and he has grown to like and bond with some of the wildlings who are supposed to be his enemies. In the end, he chooses duty; fighting on the side opposite of the woman he has grown to love and after the battle is over he holds her hand as he watches the woman he loved die.

When Mance Rayder commences his attack on the Black Gate. Jon is surprised to find that Noye puts in charge of defense on the top of the Wall going so far as to think I am still as green as summer grass in stark (no pun intended) contrast to his sense of entitlement and his opinion of himself when he first arrived at the Wall. Jon raises the morale of the men on the Wall with a little speech saying "They cannot pass." He displays his military leadership skills in commanding the defenses, and again shows his intelligence in filling casks of gravel with water to make them into boulders for Mance's turtle.

After turning down Stannis's offer of being legitimate Lord of Winterfell, something Jon had wanted all his life, and becoming LC of the Night's Watch, Jon wastes no time in doing what needs to be done. He sets up mandatory archery drills for every member of the NW.

By ADwD, Jon has become psychologically, close to full-grown man, even more mature than men older than he is. He has been hardened by the loss of Ygritte and his father and brothers, and blooded in battle. He takes on the responsbilities of LC, doing what he feels needs to be done despite what others may think. Jon has become a more effective leader than most of the people we've seen. He has come to resemble the late Crown Prince and Hand of the King, Baelor Breakspear, the right mix of honor, ethics and pragmatism. Also as ghostlovesinger writes:

Many readers see Jon as the primary hero of A Song of Ice and Fire, as the fulfillment of prophecy with the secret blood of kings. They see him fighting the cold, ancient Others in a land of ice and snow, with a hand burned by the flames from which he drew his sword and a heart touched by a girl who was kissed by fire. They see the convincing evidence of Jon's true parentage, itself a union of ice and fire, and they believe that the song is his. The truth or falsehood of that is not under debate here, but what is undeniable is that Jon Snow is an incredible character, a hero regardless of lineage or prophecy, and wherever his story goes from here, it will sweep us along with it.

[Failed to De-anon]

He's been scorched, scratched, shot, stabbed, and well there's what they say about what doesn't kill you. . . .

Also, realizing that he wasn't going to be like the bastard in King Lear was a good thing. And while on THAT subject:

Now ye gods, stand up for bastards!

So you've found yourself dealing with giants and skinchangers, you're accidentally turning into a direwolf at all hours of the day and night, and you're in charge during an icy apocalypse instituted at the hands of terrifying mythical ice demons.

Ordinary People's Solution: Cry, go insane, or declare yourself a fairy-tale hero reborn.

Jon's Solution: Get a bank loan and try not to dwell too much on that whole wolf thing.

I adore this guy.

Basically all of this. He's been through a lot which would drive others (lower case for a reason) batty, while trying to do the best he can under the crappiest of crap circumstances, and he tries to be as good as a guy in his position can, while he attempts to deal with all this drama.

It's bad enough that one of the reasons he's even at the Wall is because he was born a bastard and believed there was no place for him at the home he grew up in after his father left and later died. Now he's up North at the Wall only to find himself the leader of said Wall at a young age when there are a number of his brothers with an intirely different plan for that Wall, on top of having to deal with who knows how many wildings and previously thought dead and/or mythical creatures and a court of a stern King and a red-headed Priestess with a penchant for burning children. Dude's got it tough.

[Tagganaro]

Jon decides to desert and go to war with Robb? Sam saves him from the consequences.

Sam only saves Jon because Jon earned it by helping Sam, and generally winning over all his fellow Watch members, who consider him a friend and go save him. That is not the result of some external "god" deciding Jon should survive...That's the result of Jon being a good person and a good friend.

Jon decides to let the Enemy escape because he can't kill a woman? Qhorin ignores it.

Did you ever consider that Qhorin wanted him to let her go, because that was his plan all along, or at least a backup plan, to have Jon desert because he knew Mance would accept him? And again, why should Jon be criticized for being a good person? He made a choice (the right choice btw), and he reaped the consequences.

Jon doesn't want to kill Qhorin? Qhorin and Ghost force him to.

Again, part of Qhorin's plan.

Jon decides not to kill the old man? Ygritte saves him from the consequences.

You mean, where he ends up betraying her and the wildlings, being forced to watch her die in his arms? Yeah, really no consequences to that one.

Jon is caught in a Mance dilemma? Stannis turns up just in time.

So...You wish Jon was dead is pretty much what you're saying? Correct me if I'm wrong. This is a fantasy series, in order to manufacture drama characters are put in life and death situations all the time. It wouldn't be much of a series if A)These characters weren't put into life and death situations, and B)These characters were, and then died.

[Errant Bard]

Yeah, I can see that GRRM failed WRT you, but I think he succeeded with the vast majority of his readers.

And if you actually read my posts, you'll see that I'm only defending what I first posted, that is: my opinion on the character.

The rest of your post only underlines the reasons I cannot care. He's a vanilla hero.

So...You wish Jon was dead is pretty much what you're saying? Correct me if I'm wrong. This is a fantasy series, in order to manufacture drama characters are put in life and death situations all the time.

I can only assume that he only wishes he was written differently. You'll notice that he said Tyrion was a OK character despite also being put in life or death situations. Or for that being worth, about all the characters get put in these kind of situations, and not that many get a deus ex machina saving them all the time, most have to deal with what their choice really means, and they don't all die.

Though I'll say, for Jon it's never life or death situation or he would really have died.

Reminds me of Brienne screaming sword and how half of the posters wished for a DEM sparing her from making that choice when really, the choice was the point, not every character should have to choose the lesser evil only in flashbacks.

[StarkWard]

I'd like to think that Jon's appeal is that he IS normal. Gets a wee bit emotional and self-absorbed sometimes but in the end, chooses what's right. Jon is appealing because he is ordinary because he is just like us. We can actually imagine ourselves like him. He doesn't go about with whores, have 3 fancy pets, or lose a hand, but he's pretty damn relatable. I do find his chapters boring at times, but I still enjoy them because his circumstances are actually feasible.

[No Country For Cliffracers]

I think to me his only appeal is his storyline which happens to be one of my favourites. This is also probably the reason why it took two books for me to notice I really didn't like Snow himself.

[peasant]

Reasons why Jon's character not interesting:

- he's character always in defensive side. he's not a person who would do stupid things or do beyond his principles, makes him boring.

- he's a person of deep "emo..." being a bastard and mostly rediculed of many.

Reason why Jon's charater is so interesting

- Jon's parentage is still a mystery...thats why i'm still following his story

- Jon's character of being one of the stark children makes him interesting..as we all know Starks family had gone through all different tragedies.

- Jon's character has a potential of become a good leader. He's heart for the weak and lowly people makes him likable to become a good ruler even without power, how much more if he finds out what his capable of.

[Scipio Africanus]

So you've found yourself dealing with giants and skinchangers, you're accidentally turning into a direwolf at all hours of the day and night, and you're in charge during an icy apocalypse instituted at the hands of terrifying mythical ice demons.

Ordinary People's Solution: Cry, go insane, or declare yourself a fairy-tale hero reborn.

My solution would be to get drunk off my ass but that's just me.

Jon detractors seem to be particulairly miffed by his plot armour, in that he survives anything and everything with no consequences.

If you look at the events however you'd see Jon's plot armour isn't as great as say, Tyrion's or Arya's. He did have to face the consequences of breaking his vows, ultimately rejecting Ygritte and deciding to help Stan and the Wildlings. He at any rate was stabbed for it.

But others already have written in length the consequences of Jon's actions.

[Mulled Wino]

Huh, I was talking about the OP. What do you mean by first post?

I meant op.

[greywindsrage]

Dany spends a considerable amount of time in ADWD listening to, and trying to take account of, the counsel of others: in fact, probably her primary problem is that she pays too much attention to their views.

She did all of that after she messed up. Once she realized her mistake she began listening more to her council. A lot of her choices were made because that's what she wanted eg Darrio. Some of her choices were influenced by the acts of others. eg Her Marriage and imprisonment of the dragons.

[King Aemon I]

Jon's actions were under influence as well.. Just like anyone. The thing about Jon is, he isn't a legend who gives birth to dragons or rule thousands of Dothraki, or he isn't a Tyrion, with all the wits and freedom to say anything, and he didn't have an older brother to protect him like Jaime the Freak.. Robb hurt him from time to time.. He had the blood, same blood as Robb, but even Karstarks had a better claim than him in Winterfell.. His father was kings best friend but he never asked for a legitimation for Jon (he has his reasons, we know, but Jon doesn't) and he was treated badly by Cat.. He grew up with a sin that wasn't his, but carried the taint for his life.. He hopelessly wanted a family and chose to join NW, even after he saw how bad people were in there, but he refused to break his promise. He is trying to be honorable like his father though he dares not calling himself a Stark.. He doesn't care about most of the rules, he breaks them in a good way always.. And for doing those, he feels guilty, When Stannis offers him Winterfell, he thinks that it would be a crime to even think that, he refuses.. He is a sacrificer...

[Buried Treasure]

Jon's actions were under influence as well.. Just like anyone. The thing about Jon is, he isn't a legend who gives birth to dragons or rule thousands of Dothraki, or he isn't a Tyrion, with all the wits and freedom to say anything, and he didn't have an older brother to protect him like Jaime the Freak.. Robb hurt him from time to time.. He had the blood, same blood as Robb, but even Karstarks had a better claim than him in Winterfell.. His father was kings best friend but he never asked for a legitimation for Jon (he has his reasons, we know, but Jon doesn't) and he was treated badly by Cat.. He grew up with a sin that wasn't his, but carried the taint for his life.. He hopelessly wanted a family and chose to join NW, even after he saw how bad people were in there, but he refused to break his promise. He is trying to be honorable like his father though he dares not calling himself a Stark.. He doesn't care about most of the rules, he breaks them in a good way always.. And for doing those, he feels guilty, When Stannis offers him Winterfell, he thinks that it would be a crime to even think that, he refuses.. He is a sacrificer...

That's the reasons you like Jon then? I mostly agree, though I detect a slight tone that you are sentimentalizing Jon there (correct me if I am wrong, it's just the way I read it). Even as a fan of Jon I feel we should not be too sympathetic to him, because to him its not a great saga but just his life which although it has it's trials has been better than that of many people in Westeros - he had a safe and largely happy childhood.

I also want to say, because I have seen the misapprehension elsewhere, Ned did not fail to petition for Jon's legitimisation solely because of R+L+J. Legitimisation of bastards it not the norm in Westeros, it is a measure taken when there is problem with an inheritance (usually that there are no heirs in the direct bloodline). The only example to the contrary is the Great Bastards, which resulted in a shocking mess, and that was able to happen largely because Aegon IV was both father of the bastards and kings - so there was nobody with the authority to deny the legitimisation even though there were already legitimate heirs (for the sake of argument I'm assuming that Daeron II was not the Dragonknights son).

Your post has also reminded me of a post I wrote several months ago about how Jon doesn't know he's special. Mostly I like Jon the character but this is addressing him more from the storyarc perspective. I hope it will help to explain to those who don't like Jon because his story is 'cliche' why I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing:

Nice thread, and the perfect place for me to mention a theme I noticed with 3 of the POV's in Dance.

Quentyn Martell is a prince (that is his reality) but he believes that he is going on a fairytale adventure. Like a story-book prince he is going on a quest with his friends and he will win the girl, conquer the dragons, be the hero. He is wrong.

Aegon is a fairytale prince (this is his reality). He is the secret heir that lives among the common people and will return and be a just and wise ruler. This is the case because Varys and Illyario manufactured it to be so, and had him raised in this role. I believe Aegon is in for a rude awakening as he has just arrived in Westeros and is about to find out he doesn't live in a story-book world, he lives in a crap-sack world. Things will inevitably start to go wrong, and it may end sadly for him. Regardless of whether he is real or fake he will find out that he is wrong about being a fairytale prince.

Jon is pragmatic and a realist and he deals with the life he has rather than any romanticised version of the life he would like to have. His reality however involves being the person to defeat the monsters, with magical animal sidekicks and possibly magical swords. He is propably also a secret prince, though he doesn't know it. So Jon is wrong too, as he doesn't think he is a fairytale hero, but he actually is.

[King Aemon I]

Simply, Jon isn't a man we can't think ourselves as if we are him.. Mostly we see people who are too different from us, but we just admire the guy's super humanity and we think ourselves as him.. Superman, spiderman etc. And Harry Potter, I always thought of him as a little fake, who keeps denying his successes and saying stuff like "it wasn't me, I just helped" Jon doesn't do that kind of stuff.. And it is a little rare than the other stories; not too many adventures I believe, I love his conflicts, his pains, his personal development. Yes he had a childhood better than the other people, but it was an illusion for him, sometimes he forgot that he was a bastard, but something reminded him. And the concept of bastardy is one of the things I hate most in the world.. Like Napoleon's nephew sitting on the throne while there was a son of Napoleon just because he is a bastard.. I don't pity Jon though, I admire him.. Maybe if he weren't a POV I would.. If he weren't a POV when he refused Stannis's "Jon Stark" offer, I would just laugh at him, but when we see through him, we get it.. We know he'll regret it, and he does.. But other POV's aren't like that for me.. Dany is too legend and too annoying, with pretending something she is not, Tyrion, I love him too but not thinking with him, watching him is better.. Jaime and Cersei, hate them because of incest, can't change my opinion in that unfortunately.. Arya is a showoff to herself, don't get me started of the stupid Sansa,, well it your feelings start to people at the beginning of the book and Jon was clear to love at aGoT, can't change that, whatever he does.. I don't defend everything he does, but love is not for a reason at the end..

[lyvyathan]

7-Which is annoying. Martins given the character a free pass.

Really? I don't think so. Maybe you should complain to the author about it then? Or maybe read another book?