What exactly is the appeal of Jon Snow?

[Peko]

Isn't this exactly why some of us don't like Jon, though? Because he's been created to be the likeable main character, a form of escapism for the readers. But GRRM was so heavy-handed in trying to make Jon likeable that it just didn't work for me. He feels a bit like a cardboard cut-out character to me at times, not because he's "good", but because GRRM seems unwilling to make him do anything too controversial. And before anyone throws the 'You must hate Ned!' argument at me: no, I don't hate Ned. Ned made some very controversial decisions in King's Landing, and watching him react to those and stick by his honour made me appreciate him as a character.

Do I blame GRRM for wanting to make his main character likeable? No. So don't blame me for being a bit pissed off with him for creating what I feel is a fairly cheap character who basically amounts to fanservice.

I feel like your points can be countered by a combination of two posts I made earlier in this thread:

Something that just occurred to me about the whole 'Jon not making any choices until ADwD' date=' particularly hard ones' argument.

Jon is the ONLY PoV character who is inserted into some sort of hierarchical order, and at the bottom, no less. And this takes place not only at the Wall in AGoT, but north of it as well in ACoK, and then he's not much more than a prisoner of the wildlings in ASoS. There are people he must answer to, else his life is forfeit. He's not some lord or lady or lordling with a near endless supply of resources, men, and freedom like every other PoV character.

It seems as to me people love to totally disregard the times where he DID make a choice (something his standing gives him limited ability to do, mind you), such as when he helped Sam, left the Wall to help his family (rectified by Sam, a result of a prior action of his, thus not cheap at all in my eyes), didn't kill Ygritte, and didn't kill the old man. Instead they want to focus on Ygritte conveniently dying and Stannis saving him from (not) killing Mance (which I think we all know Jon has since made it clear which path he would have chosen). The former definitely could have been handled better, such as having Jon kill her himself. And the latter would have almost certainly led to Jon's death either way, whether at the hands of the Night's Watch or the wildlings, so yes, plot armor was effective here.

My point being that Jon throughout the first three books has a very limited ability to make large-scale decisions, so I find it incredibly foolish to annoint him as a terrible character because of it. Boring? Sure, depending on personal preferences. Note that in ADwD when people's like for Jon seems to become more widespread, he actually has the power to make the aforementioned decisions, since he's now in charge of said hierarchical order.[/quote']

[Budj]

So in the end, I think you can easily liken ADwD Jon to AGoT Ned. It just took Jon three books to evolve (because, well, he was a kid when the story started) to that point, a journey that I, like many others, found fascinating.

I get where you are going with that, but I think Jon is more Ned 2.0 - so in that spirit I like reading his transformation and adapting the Ned's ideology to the real world / non-Northern only cultures.

[PatrickStormborn]

Haha, so you mean you would have preferred it if he behaved more like Ramsay Snow then? Perhaps if Jon Snow had been more bitter, whiny, self-centered... oh wait, these are the same traits Jon's haters are accusing him of!!

Strawman. What I said: I feel like GRRM tries to make Jon too likeable, which means he avoids making controversial decisions. What I didn't say: I wish Jon would flay people THEN he'd be so flawless!!!

So you don't blame him, but it pisses you off? That seems a strange combination.

Why would I blame him for wanting to make a likeable character so that his books sell? But yes, it pisses me off. That's not a strange combination.

Further more, Dany is about as much a stereotype as Jon is. I get that you have 1 favourite over another, but to have such a vast difference on your personal favourite scale, that you are pissed at the author for having the one character in the story, while the other is your clear favourite - seems a little extreme to me. But I might be dense and missing something in between the lines (no sarcasm intended)

Lmfao. You've missed my point AND brought Daenerys up. It was only a matter of time before she appeared. :)

Dany and Jon are both pretty stereotypical characters. But I'm not saying I dislike Jon because he's a stereotype; I'm saying that I don't really like him because it feels like GRRM tries to make him too likeable (as I've said in my post -- go back and re-read if you're confused). And, if there's one thing you can't say about Dany, it's that GRRM has made her "too likeable".

[lostcause]

Lmfao. You've missed my point AND brought Daenerys up. It was only a matter of time before she appeared. :)

Dany and Jon are both pretty stereotypical characters. But I'm not saying I dislike Jon because he's a stereotype; I'm saying that I don't really like him because it feels like GRRM tries to make him too likeable (as I've said in my post -- go back and re-read if you're confused). And, if there's one thing you can't say about Dany, it's that GRRM has made her "too likeable".

Passive aggressive much? :)

It's no secret Dany is your fav character, one look at your name and avatar shows that much. I was merely curious to what the big difference between the 2 characters were, in your eyes.

There is certainly something to be said for Dany being "too likeable" - young girl, last of her house as she knows it, sold as a childbride to a warlord, betrayed by people she puts trust in, watching her brother go slowly mad etc etc. Tons of victimizing and hardship there. Comes down to what pushes the individual readers buttons in the end.

On the other hand, I never felt "forced" to to like Jon. Again, matter of opinion, and now I have yours. Thanks.

[Darkstar is the Key]

Not liking someone because they are too likable is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[PatrickStormborn]

Passive aggressive much? :)

It's no secret Dany is your fav character, one look at your name and avatar shows that much. I was merely curious to what the big difference between the 2 characters were, in your eyes.

There is certainly something to be said for Dany being "too likeable" - young girl, last of her house as she knows it, sold as a childbride to a warlord, betrayed by people she puts trust in, watching her brother go slowly mad etc etc. Tons of victimizing and hardship there. Comes down to what pushes the individual readers buttons in the end.

On the other hand, I never felt "forced" to to like Jon. Again, matter of opinion, and now I have yours. Thanks.

If you think my post was passive aggressive then I apologise. I thought yours was rude and snarky, so I replied in a similar tone. But if that was not your intention, I apologise. :)

Daenerys is not too likeable. At all. Hence why she has so many hate threads. Do I think GRRM has deliberately made Dany a sympathetic character? Yes. But a large section of fans dislike her anyway and seemingly don't sympathise with her. So there's no need to bring her up.

I don't think I said that Jon's fans were "forced" to like him? I said that I thought GRRM was a bit heavy-handed with his characterisation of Jon in an effort to make him likeable.

I'm not trying to offend anyone so there's no need to get defensive. I'm just a bit sick of seeing so many people say that there's no reason to dislike Jon, because that in itself is a pretty big reason to dislike a character.

ETA:

Not liking someone because they are too likable is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Jon is not a 'someone', though, he's a fictional character. Characters are supposed to be complex. I'm sorry that heavy-handed characterisation doesn't work for me, but there's no need to be rude. GRRM himself has even said that characters who are too popular are "probably a piece of cardboard", so I think I'm justified in my reasoning.

But thanks for the patronising insult. :)

[Winter's Ghost]

Well, if characters that are "too popular" are pieces of cardboard, then that would include Tyrion, Ned, Arya, and tons of other characters. I think that using an argument saying that is just plain dumb.

[PatrickStormborn]

Well, if characters that are "too popular" are pieces of cardboard, then that would include Tyrion, Ned, Arya, and tons of other characters. I think that using an argument saying that is just plain dumb.

Tyrion, Ned and Arya aren't universally loved (they have quite a few detractors, particularly Tyrion). And no one has ever said that there is no reason to dislike them, which happens frequently with Jon Snow.

This is the exact quote from GRRM: "If you’ve created a character and everyone likes them, they’re probably a piece of cardboard." If you think that "is just plain dumb", that's cool, but I thought the quote was relevant because that's GRRM's view and this is his story. If GRRM's views aren't relevant when discussing his story, I apologise...

[LordBloodraven]

Tyrion, Ned and Arya aren't universally loved (they have quite a few detractors, particularly Tyrion). And no one has ever said that there is no reason to dislike them, which happens frequently with Jon Snow.

This is the exact quote from GRRM: "If you’ve created a character and everyone likes them, they’re probably a piece of cardboard." If you think that "is just plain dumb", that's cool, but I thought the quote was relevant because that's GRRM's view and this is his story. If GRRM's views aren't relevant when discussing his story, I apologise...

But Jon Snow is not universally loved, is he? Hodor is the only one universally loved. Jon's potential for decisionmaking comes at its fullest when he was elected LC and he made some pretty drastic choices. Sending Sam, Gilly. Aemon to Oldtown and stealing a march on Stannis; negociating the Wildlings passage to the Kingdom; deciding to save his "sister" and deciding to march on Winterfell.

[Winter's Ghost]

Tyrion, Ned and Arya aren't universally loved (they have quite a few detractors, particularly Tyrion). And no one has ever said that there is no reason to dislike them, which happens frequently with Jon Snow.

This is the exact quote from GRRM: "If you’ve created a character and everyone likes them, they’re probably a piece of cardboard." If you think that "is just plain dumb", that's cool, but I thought the quote was relevant because that's GRRM's view and this is his story. If GRRM's views aren't relevant when discussing his story, I apologise...

Jon is also not universally loved. He has a lot of fans, but that doesn't mean he is loved and adored by everyone. People like different characters, what does it matter if one person likes a character and another doesn't?

[PatrickStormborn]

Jon is also not universally loved. He has a lot of fans, but that doesn't mean he is loved and adored by everyone. People like different characters, what does it matter if one person likes a character and another doesn't?

No, he's not universally loved. Luckily GRRM said "liked". ;)

Look, I'm just saying that I don't think Jon is a great character; he's designed to appeal to everyone, which puts me off him because I don't think that's what characters should be like (and none of GRRM's other characters are like this). I see why others like him and that's fine by me -- we all like different things. I'm just sharing why I, personally, don't get the hype with Jon. I used that quote from GRRM because it describes how I feel about Jon.

[Winter's Ghost]

No, he's not universally loved. Luckily GRRM said "liked". ;)

Look, I'm just saying that I don't think Jon is a great character; he's designed to appeal to everyone, which puts me off him because I don't think that's what characters should be like (and none of GRRM's other characters are like this). I see why others like him and that's fine by me -- we all like different things. I'm just sharing why I, personally, don't get the hype with Jon. I used that quote from GRRM because it describes how I feel about Jon.

You used "loved" when talking about Tyrion, Arya, and Ned, but fine, he is not universally liked, their is no such thing as being universally liked. Characters are not formulas, their is no one way to create a character and I disagree that no other character is like Jon. I think that Ned, Robb, and Davos could all be considered to be similar to Jon.

[Batman]

He is the closest thing to Ned that I have got left!

[Sneak]

I guess it comes down to personal preference. A lot of people like him, some don't. I don't particularly like him because I find him and his story line boring; I'm not invested in the Nights Watch or the Wildings. The only exciting part for me was in aSoS when the wildings attacked the Wall. I wish the Others would hurry up and make things more interesting.

[Scipio Africanus]

Not liking someone because they are too likable is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Some people just want to see the world burn. Others...well, plenty people out there who are hatin' something just because they see a lot of people likin' something. We all do that really I believe. Go against the current I mean. I personally think Titanic is one of the worst, inane movies ever made and can't stand to watch it, yet it won a record number of Oscars. grossed the box office lists and was very populair.

So I can dig why people dislike Jon Snow. Either out of spite and wishing to troll, or they really dislike qualities in Jon what other people like about him.

[eRome]

He's always getting screwed. And people love an underdog...

[King Aemon I]

He's always getting screwed. And people love an underdog...

That's Samwell, not Jon.. Boy stands for himself, not to the Catelyn the Beastess though, but I don't see an underdog rejecting name Stark and being Lord of half of Westeros..

[David C. Hunter]

That's Samwell, not Jon.. Boy stands for himself, not to the Catelyn the Beastess though, but I don't see an underdog rejecting name Stark and being Lord of half of Westeros..

What about that whole stabbing thing at the end of ADWD?

I think alot of this is for nought because I think Jon Snow will be quite different when he awakens.

[King Aemon I]

What about that whole stabbing thing at the end of ADWD?

I think alot of this is for nought because I think Jon Snow will be quite different when he awakens.

Getting stabbed doesn't make someone an underdog for me... Being Sam does.. Some people here thinks Jon is like Sam.. I know he wasn't always treated well but no such thing as an underdog is true...

[David C. Hunter]

Getting stabbed doesn't make someone an underdog for me... Being Sam does.. Some people here thinks Jon is like Sam.. I know he wasn't always treated well but no such thing as an underdog is true...

I agree that Sam is a muuuuuch bigger under dog than Jon, I was just saying....