What exactly is the appeal of Jon Snow?

[thelivingocean]

He's one of the characters who's chapters don't bore me (unlike Dany/Areo/Arys/Brienne). But most importantly http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30400000/got-game-of-thrones-30442439-500-295.gif

[danm_999]

What setback or travail has he suffered? Hell, Sam at least faced down a White Walker and was in a position of weakness.

Born a bastard. Not allowed to sit at the table with his half siblings when the King visited. Biological mother and father died without him ever knowing them.

Joined the Night's Watch, where he had to serve with criminals who tried to kill him, takes an oath of celibacy and renounces his old life.

Uncle dissapears. Likely dead.

Receives serious burns on his hand as a result of wight attack.

Foster father imprisoned and subsequently executed.

Forced to kill Quorin Halfhand and pretend to turn his cloak.

Mauled by an eagle, giving him facial scars.

Told his brothers are dead. Told his sisters are either dead or in enemy hands.

Finds love with a Wildling girl, who shoots him with an arrow in the leg, and then dies in his arms.

Hung in an ice cage for three dies by Janos Slynt for oathbreaking. Sent on a suicide mission to kill Mance Rayder.

Involuntarily elected LC, the most thankless job in the seven kingdoms. Stabbed by a couple of idiot stewards.

So I'll say again, if you don't know what setbacks Jon has gone through, you need to re-read.

[Lady Aislinn]

Let's accept your premise that Bowen is as bad morally and incompetent as you claim (I have my doubts, but let's leave this aside for now). Why did Jon kept him as what amount to his second or third in command then and didn't do anything to keep an eye on him? Isn't this a serious failure of leadership?

Err, the fact that Jon kept him close could mean he meant to keep an eye on him.

[total1402]

JON given a free pass , what books do you read ????????

Jamie gets captured and gets thrown in a dungeon. Beaten, threatened to be killed by everybody. Gets captured and loses his hand because some pathetic bandit was a dick. Jon gets captured. His Nights Watch ranger friend selflessly gives his life and demands that Jon kill him to get info. Jon does this and the redhead who has the hots for him keeps him by until they start screwing. Inside hes slightly conflicted but the story only goes one way and we pretty much know Jons not going to betray the NW. He escapes them pretty easily after a secret mission on the flanking party which he betrays. He then rallies the watch and hurls back all of Mance Raiders assault with ease, losing a handful of men despite the bulk of the Watchs strength being destroyed. Then Stannis shows up with 2000 knights and KO Raiders force when he was about to sound the horn. He then gets elected Lord Commander to the aclaim of many who see him as a hero. He then does an amazing job of managing the wall, negociating peace with the wildlings and aiding Stannis. Then some nut stabs him from a tiny group of conspirators in a hopeless bid to stop what hes doing; which is the equivalent of being struck by a lightening bolt n random.

He consistently does the right thing and actually gets away with it. Making peace with the wildlings works. In Mereen Dany can't make peace with the Ghiscari and unlike the brilliant freedom loving Wildlings has to deal with a repulsive slaving culture. So even in that he gives Jon a much easier time of it, getting the wildlings on side and his acceptence of their ways is not that impressive or a sign of tolerence. The wildlings are "Noble Savages" and the reader instantly thinks they have the right of it. Dany tries to make peace with a repulsive culture, one which makes her own gut churn and fails epiclly. To my mind thats not really a fair or balanced treatment and obviously portrays Jon as the more intelligent and competent of the two in a quite direct way. Its always easier to ingratiate yourself with a culture thats easy to like and one which the reader likes as well.

[E-Ro]

When jon said "its death and destruction I want to bring down on house lannister, not scorn" I knew I liked him as a charecter, before this I was undecided. And with his help of stannis, I just really like him. But before I liked him I never considered his chapters boring, or cliche(maybe a tiny bit) he was a kid with great ability, trained from a young age to be a fighter and to lead men. It makes sense he would be good at these things. And he has never been through anything? I geuss killing qorin his idol was easy right, and then being called a traitor by a son of a bitch like janos. Anyway, you are allowed to not like charecters but I dont think some of your criticisms made sense, or aplied to jon.

[turinturambar1]

Born a bastard. Not allowed to sit at the table with his half siblings when the King visited. Biological mother and father died without him ever knowing them.

Joined the Night's Watch, where he had to serve with criminals who tried to kill him, takes an oath of celibacy and renounces his old life.

Uncle dissapears. Likely dead.

Receives serious burns on his hand as a result of wight attack.

Foster father imprisoned and subsequently executed.

Forced to kill Quorin Halfhand and pretend to turn his cloak.

Mauled by an eagle, giving him facial scars.

Told his brothers are dead. Told his sisters are either dead or in enemy hands.

Finds love with a Wildling girl, who shoots him with an arrow in the leg, and then dies in his arms.

Hung in an ice cage for three dies by Janos Slynt for oathbreaking. Sent on a suicide mission to kill Mance Rayder.

Involuntarily elected LC, the most thankless job in the seven kingdoms. Stabbed by a couple of idiot stewards.

So I'll say again, if you don't know what setbacks Jon has gone through, you need to re-read.

What we read about in his dream he will probably wake up from coma at the end of TWOW all alone fighting The Others and wights :bowdown: , how easy for him :bang:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

With Jon hes given him a free pass.

Jon saves people lives and get stabbed. Hardly a free pass...

Born a bastard. Not allowed to sit at the table with his half siblings when the King visited. Biological mother and father died without him ever knowing them.

Joined the Night's Watch, where he had to serve with criminals who tried to kill him, takes an oath of celibacy and renounces his old life.

Uncle dissapears. Likely dead.

Receives serious burns on his hand as a result of wight attack.

Foster father imprisoned and subsequently executed.

Forced to kill Quorin Halfhand and pretend to turn his cloak.

Mauled by an eagle, giving him facial scars.

Told his brothers are dead. Told his sisters are either dead or in enemy hands.

Finds love with a Wildling girl, who shoots him with an arrow in the leg, and then dies in his arms.

Hung in an ice cage for three dies by Janos Slynt for oathbreaking. Sent on a suicide mission to kill Mance Rayder.

Involuntarily elected LC, the most thankless job in the seven kingdoms. Stabbed by a couple of idiot stewards.

So I'll say again, if you don't know what setbacks Jon has gone through, you need to re-read.

Epic! :bowdown:

[Little Wing]

For me it has been his sense of compassion. He didn't have to lose his hand to become compassionate.

Not that I don't like Jaimie, just making a comparison.

As far as his being "emo" - it's a phase most teenagers go through.

I wouldn't say he's perfect, far from it - he's conflicted at times, has anger issues, self-esteem issues.

And as a kid who grew up with Cats scorn, constantly being reminded that he "doesn't belong" I'd say he has been through a lot already at that point; after that struggling with the disillusion of what the Night's Watch really was and accepting his brothers as equals/friends... His inner struggle and guilt about Joining the Wildlings is also something he suffers, but being with Ygritte and then betraying her in a way is probably the hardest wound. And he suffered physically too, as we all know.

And not to mention the pain of losing Benjen, Robb.....

Maybe it's hard to see that he's been through a lot because it's mostly emotional an psychological pain he deals with, but that doesn't make it less important or painful. I guess that's the main reason we like him, we all have emotional scars or some childhood trauma/drama and he deals with it, accepts it.

And as I already said, he's a humanitarian, compassionate... we'll just have to see if he'll stay that way. But I think I won't stop liking him whatever happens. Same with Bran.

[total1402]

Born a bastard. Not allowed to sit at the table with his half siblings when the King visited. Biological mother and father died without him ever knowing them.

Joined the Night's Watch, where he had to serve with criminals who tried to kill him, takes an oath of celibacy and renounces his old life.

Uncle dissapears. Likely dead.

Receives serious burns on his hand as a result of wight attack.

Foster father imprisoned and subsequently executed.

Forced to kill Quorin Halfhand and pretend to turn his cloak.

Mauled by an eagle, giving him facial scars.

Told his brothers are dead. Told his sisters are either dead or in enemy hands.

Finds love with a Wildling girl, who shoots him with an arrow in the leg, and then dies in his arms.

Hung in an ice cage for three dies by Janos Slynt for oathbreaking. Sent on a suicide mission to kill Mance Rayder.

Involuntarily elected LC, the most thankless job in the seven kingdoms. Stabbed by a couple of idiot stewards.

So I'll say again, if you don't know what setbacks Jon has gone through, you need to re-read.

He wanted and begged to join the Nights Watch. Everybody told him that means celibacy and leaving behind your life. He wanted a chivalric bortherhood and new family. He arguably found that in the Watch with Tyrions help.

We hardly got to know Benjin Stark. He has a few lines of dialogue and Jons thoughts of him are few and far inbetween. Even the ghosts like Bragg in the 40k series, his death had a keener and more profound sense of loss to the regiment; especially Larkin.

A few burns?

Not his fault. Didn't witness the death. Reaction pacific.

Scares are becoming in a man. Losing a hand is not. Being turned into a maniqin and hunchback is not.

The ranger demanded and attacked Jon Snow robbing him of the choice; therefore of the responsibility.

Ygritte died in the attack after she shot him. He simply accepted her death as inevitable and a price he had to pay for his honour. Again she kinda accepted him doing what he did.

The Wall is a cage anyway. Being in the ice cage was barely a footnote. he survives the "suicide mission" when Stannis arrives.

But he makes a brilliant job of it.

[Jabronius Maximus]

Jamie gets captured and gets thrown in a dungeon. Beaten, threatened to be killed by everybody. Gets captured and loses his hand because some pathetic bandit was a dick. Jon gets captured. His Nights Watch ranger friend selflessly gives his life and demands that Jon kill him to get info. Jon does this and the redhead who has the hots for him keeps him by until they start screwing. Inside hes slightly conflicted but the story only goes one way and we pretty much know Jons not going to betray the NW. He escapes them pretty easily after a secret mission on the flanking party which he betrays. He then rallies the watch and hurls back all of Mance Raiders assault with ease, losing a handful of men despite the bulk of the Watchs strength being destroyed. Then Stannis shows up with 2000 knights and KO Raiders force when he was about to sound the horn. He then gets elected Lord Commander to the aclaim of many who see him as a hero. He then does an amazing job of managing the wall, negociating peace with the wildlings and aiding Stannis. Then some nut stabs him from a tiny group of conspirators in a hopeless bid to stop what hes doing; which is the equivalent of being struck by a lightening bolt n random.

He consistently does the right thing and actually gets away with it. Making peace with the wildlings works. In Mereen Dany can't make peace with the Ghiscari and unlike the brilliant freedom loving Wildlings has to deal with a repulsive slaving culture. So even in that he gives Jon a much easier time of it, getting the wildlings on side and his acceptence of their ways is not that impressive or a sign of tolerence. The wildlings are "Noble Savages" and the reader instantly thinks they have the right of it. Dany tries to make peace with a repulsive culture, one which makes her own gut churn and fails epiclly. To my mind thats not really a fair or balanced treatment and obviously portrays Jon as the more intelligent and competent of the two in a quite direct way. Its always easier to ingratiate yourself with a culture thats easy to like and one which the reader likes as well.

He's had an 'easier time of it' because he was force to walk a mile in wildling shoes with the Mance suicide mission. He learned what the wildlings were like, so it was 'easier' to let them in. It just happened that a few of the NW members would rather have 5000 additional wights come at them than let the wildlings in.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I am a huge Jon fan. I agree with all the positive sentiments about him on this board. What makes Jon so important to the book is that he is one of the only good guys left and the closest thing to Ned there is in the story. He tries to emulate Ned and rule as he would have. Of course this is dangerous because Ned was a little too honorable, which in the end, cause his demise. I actuallty think he is a little more crafty than Ned was and knows how to play politics better. Perhaps he learned from poor Eddard's mistakes. Jon's huge downfall as LC of the NW was that he gave too many hard orders to reluctant followers without explaining them. We as readers know his thoughts and good intentions but one could see how his NW brothers might think some of his decisions were crazy.

[David Selig]

*snip*

Well said. I am not a fan of Jon at all but I've always found the claim that he hasn't suffered much, absurd. Yeah, some other main characters may've suffered more, but all of them have had to go through plenty of terrible moments and have lost close friends and relatives.

How do you really compare such things anyway? Some of the most pointless and ultimately going nowhere threads here have been those where people have argued whether character X or Y has suffered more.

[danm_999]

He wanted and begged to join the Nights Watch. Everybody told him that means celibacy and leaving behind your life. He wanted a chivalric bortherhood and new family. He arguably found that in the Watch with Tyrions help.

And then he found out how crappy life on the Wall was, and how most of his brothers were criminals.

This is what we call a setback.

We hardly got to know Benjin Stark. He has a few lines of dialogue and Jons thoughts of him are few and far inbetween. Even the ghosts like Bragg in the 40k series, his death had a keener and more profound sense of loss to the regiment; especially Larkin.

It doesn't matter how well WE got to know Benjen, it matters that Jon valued and loved him, and then he dissapeared.

This is what we call a setback.

A few burns?

Jon still has the burns in ADWD. That's permanent scarring.

Not his fault. Didn't witness the death. Reaction pacific.

Are you seriously suggesting if you don't actually witness your family member being killed it's not a big deal?

Scares are becoming in a man. Losing a hand is not. Being turned into a maniqin and hunchback is not.

Jaime Lannister lived 30 years as a rich spoiled knight who dabbled in child murder. Forgive me if I don't weep for him.

The ranger demanded and attacked Jon Snow robbing him of the choice; therefore of the responsibility.

You don't think this is a traumatising thing to go through? Or a setback?

Ygritte died in the attack after she shot him. He simply accepted her death as inevitable and a price he had to pay for his honour. Again she kinda accepted him doing what he did.

Again, you don't think this is a setback?

The woman you love shoots you in the leg, attacks you later, and dies in your arms.

The Wall is a cage anyway. Being in the ice cage was barely a footnote. he survives the "suicide mission" when Stannis arrives.

Generally the cells brothers sleep in are indoors and heated. Being hung from an ice cell on top of the wall for three days is another thing.

But he makes a brilliant job of it.

You're not even going to admit being stabbed by his brothers was a shitty thing to happen? This isn't a "real setback"?

[Ser Hippie]

I was always a big Orell fan, so I also don't see the appeal.

[total1402]

Jon saves people lives and get stabbed. Hardly a free pass...

Epic! :bowdown:

Arya-

Loses her wolf

Watches her father get killed.

Hears Syrio Forel her beloved swordmaster cut down.

Hunted like a dog and forced to give up her identity as she flees. Gets captured and put at Harrenhal where she has to be around people she despises and who horribly mistreat her.

Escapes and eventually witnesses the RW.

In wolf form sees her dead mother.

Has a nervous breakdown and briefly becomes dead to the world.

Is now having her humanity and identity stripped away from her by the Dark Brotherhood.

Is filled with nothing but murderous rage and is obsessed with destroying those who wronged her. She prays for their deaths.

Sansa-

Tells a fib about Arya. Loses her wolf.

Is siezed by guards in KL.

Forced to watch her fathers execution by a boy she loved after begging for her fathers life.

Said boy then shows her her fathers severed head.

Is beaten by the KG.

Has Joffrey point a crossbow at her in the middle of court about to kill her dead. Has the KG beat her bloody again.

Lives in terror of marrying Joffrey when she flowers.

Forced to marry a hideous Dwarf from a family which destroyed her family instead of an escape pass with the Tyrells.

Has her perspective on the world regarding chivalry, inner goodness, doing the right thing, repeatedly and consistently ridiculed and humiliated by everybody. Eventually the character becomes completely cynical and hates all Knights.

Lives in fear of being haped under KL with Cersei being Cersei.

Thinks shes getting out with Dontos but hes also been using her and then falls in with Little finger who wants to screw her badly and is the man that betrayed her father.

Hides her identity and is then almost killed by her insane Aunt.

By comparison to other characters in this series he has had a free pass.

[Lady Aislinn]

Jamie gets captured and gets thrown in a dungeon. Beaten, threatened to be killed by everybody. Gets captured and loses his hand because some pathetic bandit was a dick. Jon gets captured. His Nights Watch ranger friend selflessly gives his life and demands that Jon kill him to get info. Jon does this and the redhead who has the hots for him keeps him by until they start screwing. Inside hes slightly conflicted but the story only goes one way and we pretty much know Jons not going to betray the NW. He escapes them pretty easily after a secret mission on the flanking party which he betrays. He then rallies the watch and hurls back all of Mance Raiders assault with ease, losing a handful of men despite the bulk of the Watchs strength being destroyed. Then Stannis shows up with 2000 knights and KO Raiders force when he was about to sound the horn. He then gets elected Lord Commander to the aclaim of many who see him as a hero. He then does an amazing job of managing the wall, negociating peace with the wildlings and aiding Stannis. Then some nut stabs him from a tiny group of conspirators in a hopeless bid to stop what hes doing; which is the equivalent of being struck by a lightening bolt n random.

He consistently does the right thing and actually gets away with it. Making peace with the wildlings works. In Mereen Dany can't make peace with the Ghiscari and unlike the brilliant freedom loving Wildlings has to deal with a repulsive slaving culture. So even in that he gives Jon a much easier time of it, getting the wildlings on side and his acceptence of their ways is not that impressive or a sign of tolerence. The wildlings are "Noble Savages" and the reader instantly thinks they have the right of it. Dany tries to make peace with a repulsive culture, one which makes her own gut churn and fails epiclly. To my mind thats not really a fair or balanced treatment and obviously portrays Jon as the more intelligent and competent of the two in a quite direct way. Its always easier to ingratiate yourself with a culture thats easy to like and one which the reader likes as well.

This made me LoL a bit. So you actually want that he does the wrong thing then gets away with it or does the right thing and not get away with it?

About the Dany and the whole fiasco she was involved in, it wasn't about the the slave-loving people and the brilliant free folk that was the problem, they are simply plot devices to the story. The real issue was the fact that Dany already had a pre-conceived notion about the whole slavery thing and made a decision without thinking of the consequences. Jon grew up hearing about the wildings being bad and being the enemy, the order that he serves under thinks they are the enemy and yet, unlike, Dany, Jon reserved his judgment and actually shifted his mindset about the wildings. And yet, I never got the impression, he was lovey-dovey with the whole free-folk either, it was that he recognized what was more important and that was fighting the Others.

I really think your problem is more with Martin rather than with Jon the character itself.

[Little Wing]

I guess it falls down to who you relate to while reading. You (the OP) obviously don't relate to him and that's completely ok.

I can't stand Daeny for example, just don't feel for her, nothing at all. And whatever people tried to say or do to make me like her, it didn't change how I feel or rather don't feel about her. And I'm a girl, so there... I'm more in the Brienne, Arya, Asha camp :)

[Tagganaro]

Snip

If you dislike Jon Snow for a personal/emotional reason, that's really fine. It's your prerogative. However, you're clearly reaching with this argument that Jon Snow hasn't suffered enough (no offense).

So what, would Jon being subject to a forced marriage or getting almost-raped make him more likable in your eyes? Whaaaa?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

<snip>

What is your point? All I said is that Jon saves people lives and get stabbed. Hardly a free pass... Can you disagree that a assassination attempt because someone saves people lives is unjustified? After all is that a thread about who was abused more?

This made me LoL a bit. So you actually want that he does the wrong thing then gets away with it or does the right thing and not get away with it?

I really think your problem is more with Martin rather than with Jon the character itself.

I totally agree.

I guess it falls down to who you relate to while reading. You (the OP) obviously don't relate to him and that's completely ok.

I can't stand Daeny for example, just don't feel for her, nothing at all. And whatever people tried to say or do to make me like her, it didn't change how I feel or rather don't feel about her. And I'm a girl, so there... I'm more in the Brienne, Arya, Asha camp :)

:agree:

[mormont]

The thread is not about Dany, people. Stay on-topic.

Also, at the point where someone is saying that actually being killed* is not a setback, I think you just have to agree to disagree.

*usual qualifiers apply.