overcomebyfumes Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 ...things that we know that we don't know... The Hal Mullen thread got me thinking: just how many plot threads do we have hanging now that the fourth book is done (other than the big one - Jon's parentage, which should be pretty obvious by now). We know who killed Jon Arryn, we know the Red Wedding was a Lannister/Frey/Bolton set up - what is it that we don't yet know? These are the ones I've come up with: Is Asharra Dayne still alive? Where is she? - This is the big one for me. There's something really fishy about the story of Asharra Dayne. This one has been around since book one, yet it is one of the least developed of the big questions. There's a very compelling story here, but we still know very little. Where is Tyrek Lannister and why is he important? Did Varys stage the King's Landing riot to kidnap Tyrek and Sansa? Why? - Jamie was musing on this in AFfC. Was he being paranoid and Tyrek is still alive, or is this some kind of bizarre red herring? Why would it matter if Tyrek were still alive? He was only a page, why would Varys want to kidnap him? I don't understand. Who told ser Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion? - while this question is kind of insignificant to the overall plot, I'd still kinda like to know. I'm pretty sure Cercei didn't do it, because she definately would have mentioned it in her POV's in AFfC if she did. My money's on Joffery, but it still could have been Littlefinger. What (or who) does Margaery Tyrell need Tansy Tea for? - I'm sure we'll be finding out real soon, but for right now, we can only speculate. The answer to this one may have been mentioned somewhere, but I couldn't find it. If anyone knows the answer, please let me know. Who is Rosby Giles' ward? - Cercei picked Giles to run the treasury because he was so rich, then confisticated his money in the name of the crown when he died. He was said to have a ward, who I assume is pretty pissed off at Cercei right about now. Was his name of this recent pauper ever mentioned? Oh, and what ever happened to Hal Mullen and Ned's bones? - very good question, and one I hadn't even thought of until reading the thread below. Thanks! When do we get to see Ice Spiders? - they sound really cool, yo. Pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybroleach Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Is Asharra Dayne still alive? Where is she? - This is the big one for me. There's something really fishy about the story of Asharra Dayne. This one has been around since book one, yet it is one of the least developed of the big questions. There's a very compelling story here, but we still know very little. This will only be resoleved if the crackpot theories about her are true otherwise her story doesn't need anything more. Who told ser Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion? - while this question is kind of insignificant to the overall plot, I'd still kinda like to know. I'm pretty sure Cercei didn't do it, because she definately would have mentioned it in her POV's in AFfC if she did. My money's on Joffery, but it still could have been Littlefinger. I'm pretty satisfied that this one is LF. Another big one is what happened at the TOJ. And what is Vary's up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle of Toads Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Whatever happened to Benjen Stark? Whatever happened to (insert the name of any Northerner you like)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roeh61 Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Is Brienne still alive? What was her last word? Is the rest of her party still alive? Is Sandor Clegane still alive? Sphinx? Danny's other mounts, Danny's other betrayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overcomebyfumes Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 Ahhh, I'm blind sometimes - just fount the "Rosby's Ward" thread! It explains nothing, but I found it. This will only be resoleved if the crackpot theories about her are true otherwise her story doesn't need anything more. I dunno. Ned's stated motives for going to Starfall seem kinda sketchy to me - he needs to bring Arthur's sister his sword and apologize personally to her for killing him? WTF? She supposedly kills herself, but no-one actually sees her fall or finds the body. If I was her, and someone showed up at my door with that story, actually I don't know what I would do, but it would probably involve violence. I can't believe that's all there is to the story. Add "What happened to Arthur Daynes sword?" to the list of questions. Because that's the one thing that proves that there's something to the crackpot theories. If there was a cool, kick-ass sword like "Dawn", and Ned Stark, out of a sense of honor or what-have-you, brings that sword back to the Daynes, wouldn't Darkstar be making a big deal about having his (uncles?) kick-ass sword? Or that the family, at least, still had the sword? (edit: corrected name of sword) However, if Asharra took off to the free cities, she probably took the sword with her... Another big one is what happened at the TOJ. What happened AT the TOJ seems to me to be pretty straightforward - Ned and some of his knights face off against three of the biggest badasses Westeros has to offer. Only Ned and Howland Reed walk away. Within the Tower, Lyanna gives birth and dies of fever. It's AFTER the Tower of Joy that things get kinda murky. Ned promises Lyanna something... and then goes to Starfall for some reason.... Asharra Dayne jumps from a tower... or not... Whatever happened to Benjen Stark? I think it's pretty clear that he's missing. He's been missing for so long now I completely forgot about him. Thanks. Pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwdiii Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Well its looks like you didn't get any questions answered but ended up with a bunch more. As far as what happened at the TOJ thats really part of the R+L=J debate. Sure there are other questions there but what went on between Ned and Lyanna is I think the big one. One thing you kinda got wrong here however. The whole R+L=J debate is still hot and heavy. There are still many that don't buy it. Now while I do buy it I just thought I'd get you ready for whats probably coming your sure to get some other POVs on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Stark Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Dawn is at Starfall. There has been no Sword of the Morning sine Arthur Dayne for some reasaon, most likely because there is no one worth holding the title yet. It's never stated that no one saw her fall, only that her body was never found. Since it's believed she jumped from a tower in Starfall it's likely someone saw her, or something fall out of the tower. Arthir Dayne was a King's Guard, and Ned was on the other side, she had to know at sometime one or both of them had to die. Most likely she wouldn't think Ned would kill him, but we don't know how she would feel about that. She may be upset, but if she loved Ned she would likely understand, knowing that her brother had no choice but to fight or die, and it could be she rather have Ned alive. Ned is the kind of man who would bring the honored sword to a House. He would expect someone to bring Ice home to Winterfell if he used it, and died with it. If that is not enough, and he and Asharra were in love, then he would feel he owes it to her to tell her about his marriage. I agree with cybroleach that unless the crackpot theories about her are true, we have no reason to learn more about her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overcomebyfumes Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 Dawn is at Starfall. There has been no Sword of the Morning sine Arthur Dayne for some reasaon, most likely because there is no one worth holding the title yet. Sorry! I had confused the sword "Dawn" with the title "Sword of the Morning. Too many damn details <grumble> I will go back and correct my post. Thanks! Where is it confirmed that Dawn is still at Starfall? I just finished a re-read and I've obviously missed this twice. Too many damn details! <grumble> -------------------------------------------- I don't want to turn this into an Asharra Dayne crackpot thread, but I had assumed from reading previous posts on the forum that the majority of folks here thought that there was something fishy going on and that she was still alive. It's good to know that not everyone agrees. I do hope Ned and Asharra's relationship, whatever it was, does get fleshed out in the coming books. Regardless of whether she's alive or dead, it still seems to me that there is much more to the story here. (Personally, I'm a crackpot, but, hey.) I will agree, though, that Aegon VI is utterly and completely dead and is not secretly someone else. Pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Stark Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 I believe someone asked GRRM about Dawn once and he stated that it's at Starfall. At first I thought Sword of the Morning was just what they called Arthur Dayne, buit as it turns out it's a family title. No one is sure how they pick a new Sword of the Morning. Most people do seem to think there is something fishy about her body never being found, but I always consider a river and an ocean a good reason for why a body would not be found. I'm sure GRRM can have more of her story to tell, but from what we know right now I'm not sure about it, but I'm also not sure there isn't. Either way is fine with me And hey we are all crackheads now and again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back_packn Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Ned's stated motives for going to Starfall seem kinda sketchy to me - he needs to bring Arthur's sister his sword and apologize personally to her for killing him? WTF? What's so sketchy about his motives? He and Ashara were in love. He went to explain to her how he had to marry Cat in his brother's place. He went to return the Dayne's family sword to them. I think he had nothing but great respect for Arthur, but unfortunately they were caught on different sides of a war, and only fought because of their duty. Even without Ashara in the picture, Honorable Ned would have still returned the sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overcomebyfumes Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 What's so sketchy about his motives? He and Ashara were in love. He went to explain to her how he had to marry Cat in his brother's place. He went to return the Dayne's family sword to them. I think he had nothing but great respect for Arthur, but unfortunately they were caught on different sides of a war, and only fought because of their duty. Even without Ashara in the picture, Honorable Ned would have still returned the sword. Ah - if there's no evidence that Asharra is still alive, there's also no evidence that she and Ned were in love - sure we have the whispering of servants, but if we believe them, then Sansa can turn into a bat-winged wolf and fly. We have no evidence that Ned even met Asharra before Starfall. That's as much speculation as her still being alive. We simply don't know. As for Neds honor - I always came from the school that if you slew someone in combat, you got to keep their stuff. And did you see where Starfall is on the map? You can't get further south in Westeros. Real inconvienant. Is it so hard to believe that there may have been other motives for going there? ------------------------------------------------------ The most burning questions! To sum up: 1). What was Ned and Asharra's relationship? formerly: Is Asharra Dayne still alive? 2). Where is Tyrek Lannister and why is he important? Did Varys stage the King's Landing riot to kidnap Tyrek and Sansa? Why? 3). Who told ser Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion? 4). What (or who) does Margaery Tyrell need Tansy Tea for? 5). Who is Rosby Giles' ward? 6). What ever happened to Hal Mullen and Ned's bones? 7). What happened to Benjen Stark? 8). What was Brienne's (last?) word? 9). Is Sandor Clegane the gravedigger? 10). Who will be next to betray Dany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 The knight of the laughing tree story is fairly convincing evidence that Ned met Ashara before going to Starfall. A favourite of mine is: Which Targaryen did they try to marry Olenna Redwyne to, and exactly how did she put a stop to it? Did it involve murder? Also, there's whatever happened to Uncle Gerion? What ultimately happened to Brightroar, Blackfyre, and Dark Sister? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dothwacky Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 My questions What the hell has qyburn got in the cellar what is the true name of hot pie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaollenaer Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 IS Jorah the one who betrayed Dany for love? Is there a worse betrayal in stock? Did MMD foretell her own "betrayal" of Dany? WAS she the one who betrayed Dany for blood? After all, Dany trusted her, yes, but MMD never was in dany's camp. Who of Dany's most trusted advisors would turn from her for gold? and how much gold? Daario? Is Jaqen Syrio? Daario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyroshi trader Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 *de-lurk* Ah - if there's no evidence that Asharra is still alive, there's also no evidence that she and Ned were in love - sure we have the whispering of servants, but if we believe them, then Sansa can turn into a bat-winged wolf and fly. We have no evidence that Ned even met Asharra before Starfall. That's as much speculation as her still being alive. We simply don't know. Actually, the evidence for Ned and Ashara having met before Starfall, and possibly (even if that is still speculation) being in love, is more than just the whispering of servants. Like Other-in-law pointed out, there's Meera's story in ASoS about the Knight of the Laughing Tree: The Crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance /.../ lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. ... and while I was looking for that quote, I came across the chapter where Arya speaks with Edric Dayne, where this exchange takes place: /.../ 'Did he know her?' 'Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal during the year of the false spring.' 'Oh.' Arya did not know what else to say. 'Why did she jump in the sea, though?' 'Her heart was broken.' /.../ 'My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal--' Unless I'm getting things mixed up, Ashara and Allyria are sisters, which would make her claim rather more trustworthy than the gossip. Not that we have any clue about how close they were, but nevertheless... There's far too little evidence for me to believe that she's still alive, though. Someone has to stay dead. But it would certainly be interesting to learn more about what really happened between the two. Howland Reed really needs to make an appearance soon. Another unanswered question... Where's Ser Jorah, and will he ever hear about his father's dying wish? And yes, whatever is Qyburn up to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon tarkaryen Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Guys guys you all forgot one I care about most(since he is one of my most favorite charachters):What happened to Davos?Is he really dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle of Toads Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 If we're gonna include Davos, we should probably also add everyone's favorite -- Theon. He's clearly still alive, but his story is also clearly not finished yet. Will GRRM really just kill him after he's been tortured offstage for a couple years now? Is he gonna be rescued by Asha? break free himself? sent to the Wall? Is he gonna make everyone make everyone cringe there way into liking him by killing Roose Bolton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 The whole Theon thing is a great mystery to me. I wonder what GRRM has in store for him as it must be something important to keep him alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overcomebyfumes Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 *de-lurk* Actually, the evidence for Ned and Ashara having met before Starfall, and possibly (even if that is still speculation) being in love, is more than just the whispering of servants. Like Other-in-law pointed out, there's Meera's story in ASoS about the Knight of the Laughing Tree: ... and while I was looking for that quote, I came across the chapter where Arya speaks with Edric Dayne, where this exchange takes place: Unless I'm getting things mixed up, Ashara and Allyria are sisters, which would make her claim rather more trustworthy than the gossip. Not that we have any clue about how close they were, but nevertheless... There's far too little evidence for me to believe that she's still alive, though. Someone has to stay dead. But it would certainly be interesting to learn more about what really happened between the two. Howland Reed really needs to make an appearance soon. Another unanswered question... Where's Ser Jorah, and will he ever hear about his father's dying wish? And yes, whatever is Qyburn up to? Ah ha! Thanks for the quotes! I am learning much! I had read the one about the wolves, but the meaning of it didn't quite sink in - that bit always puzzled me. I had been looking for evidence that they were lovers without much luck, until now. I will have to take that into account next time I am crack-pot theorizing. He's a few more - What's the deal with Quentyn Martell and the Golden Company? What really happened with ser Loras and Dragonstone? Did they take the city or not? Is ser Loras injured or not? Where is Lord Waters taking Cercei's fleet to? The Blackfish - where has he escaped to? Why have the Faceless Men infiltrated the Maester's Citadel? Is ser Raynald Westerling still alive? - I know that one's obscure and no-one really cares about the answer, but GRRM brought it up, and I'd like to see it answered definatively. Pax! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 What's the deal with Quentyn Martell and the Golden Company? Quentyn might not have anything to do with the Golden Company. IIRC, Arianne just connects the two in her mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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