Is Dany's no slavery rule really the best for Planetos

[Stoned Dragon]

Actually, the first asiento de negros or permission to import african slaves was given in 1518, fourteen years after Isabel I died, but you're right, she probably wasn't against slavery on itself, only against the creation of a class of chattel slaves. During that time it was common for muslims and christians to raid each other for slaves, and it was considered OK, but most people were against the idea of making christians into slaves; when a chistian slave was bought (usually to muslim traders), it usually ended being freed soon or later; the greek slave Jordi Johan, for example, became a famed sculptor, the same as his sons, and worked for the king Pedro IV of Aragon. The creation of a whole class of slaves that were born in the kingdom and raised as christians opened a whole new can of worms, since decent, educated people knew it would be immoral, but economic reasons imposed themselves over moral ones. The encomienda system (I think that's what you mean when you say hacienda system) originally was created to protect the native americans from people who would steal their land, but it was subverted and used as a tool of slavery. The native americans were suposed to keep their lands and pay a share of their crops to feed the conquistador troops, but the peasants were often reduced to de facto slavery.

• Hacienda and encomendia are the same system. ["]http://en.wikipedia....acienda_system] You're right that it was started to "protect" the indigenous populations, but I said in my OP that it was used as a tool to bind indigenous populations to their lands and make extracting tribute easier. In Peru, the system took on different effects where indigenous populations on a specific estate were actually "loaned" to the Viceroyal Government for periods lasting as long a two years in order to mine the silver deposits or participate in the textile production that was one of the major exportable commodities (besides gold and silver) in Latin America. [sN: I said hacienda because I couldn't remember off the top of my head how to spell encomendia LOL]
  

• The first official permission doesn't actually line up with the actual presence of African slaves, which were imported into Hispanola in 1502, if I'm not mistaken. During that time it actually wasn't that common for Muslims to take Christian slaves, or at least - not the sort of slavery we think when we say that word. Also, you're right that it was wrong to enslave Christians according to the Catholic Church, which is why indigenous populations couldn't be enslaved because they were thought capable of accepting Christ as their savior. However, Africans were thought of as less-than human and beastial in part because it was widely believed that they were the descendants of Cain - whose descendants had been marked by God with darker skin as a sign of their exile from God's community. Slavery in the New World was not the same as slavery in Europe or slavery in Antiquity because of the racial overtones it took and the cruelty experienced.
  

EDIT:

• This idea of MARKING slaves is interesting one because it makes the features or "mark" of slavery permanent through tattoos. The woman Tyrion meets who was an ex-slave that carved the tattoo announcing her servile status is an interesting case where the mark may be gone but is still there through the physical scarring its removal required. I don't remember if the slaves in Mereen were similarly marked, but if they were I can think of how this (much like dark skin in America) would have made their reenslavement really easily when/or if Dany ever actually left.
  

My question is: what industries are the slaves upholding? If you argue that industrialization - the ability to mass-produce a product - is what's required for slavery to truly become obsolete, what will they be mass-producing? From what I can see, we have the Unsullied, and the pleasure slaves - so mass-produced warriors, whose place can be filled by sellswords, and mass-produced sex workers, whose place can be filled by prostitutes. IIRC, Meereen specializes in slaves that do whatever the Meereenese don't want to do. If they were field workers, or miners, I could see how it could be cataclysmic to Essos to wipe out slavery. But the only industry totally destroyed by the abolishment of the slave trade seems to be the slave trade.

• I don't think they were upholding any industry - they were the commodities. I agree that the slave trade is the only industry abolished if slavery is ended, but prostitution is routinely present in systems where women (and men) are unable to participate in the normative economy and are forced to sell their bodies - since that is their only product, or the only skill or market they are able to enter. When slaves work as sex workers it means that other women (and men) are able to sustain themselves through other efforts (domestic production or marrying well, for example). If the slaves are freed, some are still going to remain sex workers, and the rest are going to displace workers because they are cheaper to employ - disrupting established industries. The same is true for mining, to take your example. Slaves are not only free labor in the mines, but they are replaceable and you don't need to worry about healthcare costs or injuries - you merely kill the slave and get a new one. That's the reason slavery worked so well in the Caribbean (in the view of the owners) because sugar cane was so hard to produce that caring for indentured workers proved more costly than simply using slaves and replacing them when they were wounded or killed in the production. If slavery is abolished then the miners have to pay wages and they have to worry about working conditions, since replacing the workers is now more costly than previously. Abolishing the slave trade disrupts a lot more industries than just the people trafficking in people.
  

[Ser Lepus]

The slaves weren't going back but some former slavers were.

It's unclear if the people who wanted to sell themselves were freedmen or slavers. Brown Ben Plumm says that some of those people were "gently born" which points to them being ex-slavers, and we know of a meereenese former merchant who wanted to sell himself to Xaro, but, on the other hand, we have heard that many of those people were healers, teachers, scribes, bedslaves...etc., and those are mostly slave jobs in Volantis and Slaver's Bay.

[Winter's Knight]

It's unclear if the people who wanted to sell themselves were freedmen or slavers. Brown Ben Plumm says that some of those people were "gently born" which points to them being ex-slavers, and we know of a meereenese former merchant who wanted to sell himself to Xaro, but, on the other hand, we have heard that many of those people were healers, teachers, scribes, bedslaves...etc., and those are mostly slave jobs in Volantis and Slaver's Bay.

Could you give me a quote on that? I just searched my copy for "healer", "scribe", "tutor" and "teacher" and couldn't find the relevant text.

[David Selig]

But Essos isn't like Medieval Europe or Westeros.

Sure, but the point is there could be a functional society and economy without either slavery or industrialisation. There are examples both in-story and in real history.

[Brony Stark]

Sure, but the point is there could be a functional society and economy without either slavery or industrialisation. There are examples both in-story and in real history.

Yes there could be, but Westeros doesn't have an economy centered around slavery like some of the world (RL) and Essos did.

[grindylow]

• I don't think they were upholding any industry - they were the commodities. I agree that the slave trade is the only industry abolished if slavery is ended, but prostitution is routinely present in systems where women (and men) are unable to participate in the normative economy and are forced to sell their bodies - since that is their only product, or the only skill or market they are able to enter. When slaves work as sex workers it means that other women (and men) are able to sustain themselves through other efforts (domestic production or marrying well, for example). If the slaves are freed, some are still going to remain sex workers, and the rest are going to displace workers because they are cheaper to employ - disrupting established industries. The same is true for mining, to take your example. Slaves are not only free labor in the mines, but they are replaceable and you don't need to worry about healthcare costs or injuries - you merely kill the slave and get a new one. That's the reason slavery worked so well in the Caribbean (in the view of the owners) because sugar cane was so hard to produce that caring for indentured workers proved more costly than simply using slaves and replacing them when they were wounded or killed in the production. If slavery is abolished then the miners have to pay wages and they have to worry about working conditions, since replacing the workers is now more costly than previously. Abolishing the slave trade disrupts a lot more industries than just the people trafficking in people.
  

Aaahh, it's neat to get to talk to someone who knows so much about this - I'm thinking this all through as I go, which is obviously going to lead to errors. I still feel that since the slaves in Essos were more luxury items than they were necessities - from what I remember from what I've read, there aren't any mine operators relying on slave labor to keep the mines running - that industrialization isn't a prerequisite for abolishing slavery, and that Essos won't be crippled by the lack of them. But I see what you mean about the overflow into the workforce, and if I had a good solution to the problem of job creation and training, I'd be running my ideas by presidential campaigns and not westeros.org :)

It does seem like there's plenty of room for WPA-style work in Essos - rebuild Astapor! repair the roads around Valyria! - but someone has to fund it.

[Foxhound]

The 5:1 slave to free ratio in Volantis points to slaves comprising the bulk of the labour force there at least. But I think the other cities in Essos have a much smaller proportion of slaves.

[Kanon]

Yes there could be, but Westeros doesn't have an economy centered around slavery like some of the world (RL) and Essos did.

And what makes it impossible for them to change their economy? I remember a few parts of DWD where Dany plans makes some new economic plans for the city.

[Stoned Dragon]

Aaahh, it's neat to get to talk to someone who knows so much about this - I'm thinking this all through as I go, which is obviously going to lead to errors. I still feel that since the slaves in Essos were more luxury items than they were necessities - from what I remember from what I've read, there aren't any mine operators relying on slave labor to keep the mines running - that industrialization isn't a prerequisite for abolishing slavery, and that Essos won't be crippled by the lack of them. But I see what you mean about the overflow into the workforce, and if I had a good solution to the problem of job creation and training, I'd be running my ideas by presidential campaigns and not westeros.org :)

It does seem like there's plenty of room for WPA-style work in Essos - rebuild Astapor! repair the roads around Valyria! - but someone has to fund it.

Haha!! I love the idea of a WPA project in Essos. Have Dany loot all the riches from the pyramids (except for maybe 10-15% which the nobles are allowed to keep) and then use that money to pay former slaves to rebuilt the city, plant olive trees (or really any tree will do). I imagine that the money should last long enough that by the time its all said and done the city will be magnificent and the improvements made would make whatever industries that spring up more productive than slavery. Oh Dany -- too bad she was thinking too small! LOL

[Ser Lepus]

Hacienda and encomendia are the same system. [http://en.wikipedia....acienda_system] You're right that it was started to "protect" the indigenous populations, but I said in my OP that it was used as a tool to bind indigenous populations to their lands and make extracting tribute easier. In Peru, the system took on different effects where indigenous populations on a specific estate were actually "loaned" to the Viceroyal Government for periods lasting as long a two years in order to mine the silver deposits or participate in the textile production that was one of the major exportable commodities (besides gold and silver) in Latin America. [sN: I said hacienda because I couldn't remember off the top of my head how to spell encomendia LOL]

Yes, as I said economic reasons imposed themselves over moral arguments, and the crown allowed the explotaition of the natives as long as the silver kept flowing. As a matter of fact, Emperor Charles "lent" the whole territory of today's Venezuela to the german banking families Welser and Fugger to be ravaged as they wished in exchange of money...not one of the most glorious hours of the spanish crown...

The first official permission doesn't actually line up with the actual presence of African slaves, which were imported into Hispanola in 1502, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes. Those were 250 african slaves that were already assimilated to spanish culture (negros ladinos, or latin-blacks), and were to help build the first colonies, since there were trouble to find free people willing to travel to America.

During that time it actually wasn't that common for Muslims to take Christian slaves, or at least - not the sort of slavery we think when we say that word.

The muslim slave raids started in 711 and never stopped until the British, French and USA governments defeated the argeline sultanate during the XIX century. Of course the christians raided back when they could: there is a medieval song about a christian knight that during a raid grabbed a girl, put her on his horse, and when he was riding back home he realised that girl was his sister that had been kidnapped by muslims years ago (the creepy part is that it's clear he was planning to get himself a wife).

Muslim raids became worse after the fall of Constantinopla, and there were several great raids against spanish territory since 1505.

Also, you're right that it was wrong to enslave Christians according to the Catholic Church, which is why indigenous populations couldn't be enslaved because they were thought capable of accepting Christ as their savior. However, Africans were thought of as less-than human and beastial in part because it was widely believed that they were the descendants of Cain - whose descendants had been marked by God with darker skin as a sign of their exile from God's community. Slavery in the New World was not the same as slavery in Europe or slavery in Antiquity because of the racial overtones it took and the cruelty experienced.

Of course people supporting the slave trade developed an ideology justifyin their explotation; but african slaves were actually to be baptised and to receive religious education by law, and there were even african religious brotherhoods that organized their own processions in Spain. The africans were officially human beings able to receive salvation. The teologist and lawyer Luis de Molina said during the XVI century that the slave trade was a mortal sin and that only criminals were to be enslaved.

But people kept practising slavery and exploiting other human beings out of selfish economic reasons.

[Stoned Dragon]

And what makes it impossible for them to change their economy? I remember a few parts of DWD where Dany plans makes some new economic plans for the city.

Jumping into a new market is hard for even the savvy. Mereen's only major export was slaves, and once you remove that you have to replace it with something. Before Dany got to Mereen the nobles destroyed all the olive trees that would have been useful for exporting olive oil and the like, but they also burned down regular trees (to stop her from building siege weapons) and so they don't have the ability to build a navy. Without a stable supply of exportables, and without a way to transport them to markets that are incredibly distant, they can't just change their economy overnight. Dany does talk about some changes, but they are too small and eventually don't work out. What Dany needed was time, but the Harpy killings made Dany feel rushed, and because she wouldn't attack the real entrenched nobility in the pyramids she didn't have enough money or hostages to make the killings stop without abandoning her principals and letting slavery exist outside Mereen and within the fighting pits.

If she had taken and killed hostages from all the families, looted their pyramids and used the money to pay former-slaves to rebuild the city and begin creating a new economy built around an export then she would have been fine, but she was too worried about appearances and being diplomatic to take the harder and much bloodier option. In the end, it wound up with her nearly poisoned fleeing the city on the back of her dragon and her husband rolling back her reforms.

[The Sunset King]

If the incessant wars in Slavers' Bay (at least recently) were to become less frequent, the abolition of slavery might take hold more easily.

[Ser Lepus]

Could you give me a quote on that? I just searched my copy for "healer", "scribe", "tutor" and "teacher" and couldn't find the relevant text.

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 71:

Dany was shocked. "They want to be slaves?"

"The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen. Such slaves are prized. In the Free Cities they will be tutors, scribes, bed slaves, even healers and priests. They will sleep in soft beds, eat rich foods, and dwell in manses. Here they have lost all, and live in fear and squalor."

[Kanon]

Jumping into a new market is hard for even the savvy. Mereen's only major export was slaves, and once you remove that you have to replace it with something. Before Dany got to Mereen the nobles destroyed all the olive trees that would have been useful for exporting olive oil and the like, but they also burned down regular trees (to stop her from building siege weapons) and so they don't have the ability to build a navy. Without a stable supply of exportables, and without a way to transport them to markets that are incredibly distant, they can't just change their economy overnight. Dany does talk about some changes, but they are too small and eventually don't work out. What Dany needed was time, but the Harpy killings made Dany feel rushed, and because she wouldn't attack the real entrenched nobility in the pyramids she didn't have enough money or hostages to make the killings stop without abandoning her principals and letting slavery exist outside Mereen and within the fighting pits.

If she had taken and killed hostages from all the families, looted their pyramids and used the money to pay former-slaves to rebuild the city and begin creating a new economy built around an export then she would have been fine, but she was too worried about appearances and being diplomatic to take the harder and much bloodier option. In the end, it wound up with her nearly poisoned fleeing the city on the back of her dragon and her husband rolling back her reforms.

So you dont think a "no slavery rule" is good for "Planetos"

[Brony Stark]

And what makes it impossible for them to change their economy? I remember a few parts of DWD where Dany plans makes some new economic plans for the city.

Oh yes, the Olive Orchards. Good point.

[E-Ro]

And what makes it impossible for them to change their economy? I remember a few parts of DWD where Dany plans makes some new economic plans for the city.

Its not impossible just extremely difficult, especially when the only one who wants this(apart from the slaves) is going about it all wrong and is planning on leaving soon. You dont just create change overnight and then say "lol all good now im out, but you guys have fun with the mess I created!"

[Hear Us Roar]

She would have to stay in Essos her whole live and her descendants or chosen heirs would have to maintain her policies for any real change to occur. What she is doing now is much like the slave revolts and slave armies of out past, they would rise up and get put down again.

[Kanon]

Its not impossible just extremely difficult, especially when the only one who wants this(apart from the slaves) is going about it all wrong and is planning on leaving soon. You dont just create change overnight and then say "lol all good now im out, but you guys have fun with the mess I created!"

So you think a rule against slavery is bad for them? Even if it sets a precedent for future anti slavery movements?

[Kanon]

She would have to stay in Essos her whole live and her descendants or chosen heirs would have to maintain her policies for any real change to occur. What she is doing now is much like the slave revolts and slave armies of out past, they would rise up and get put down again.

Even the revolts that fail can stay in history and can be used to raise the morale for future movements

[E-Ro]

So you think a rule against slavery is bad for them? Even if it sets a precedent for future anti slavery movements?

Yes, it is bad. There wont even be any future if the economy collapses and they all die of hunger and war. And what do you think is going to happen to the slaves when dany leaves? Things are going to be ten times worse for them, in order for dany to make a difference she must stay in slavers bay. But she has no intention of doing this.