Moments of Foreshadowing 2

[NotSoSilentSister]

Considering that he's a big fan of Tolkein. No.

Being a big fan of someone does not necessarily imply imitation.

[Jon Flowers]

Being a big fan of someone does not necessarily imply imitation.

Tolkein is one of Martin's influences (and Martin is a fan of his) according to the man himself. What exactly is the confusion here?

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes, Nymeria's wolves can be her army, but can they replace human pack-mates? It's not impossible, but I guess it would involve a substantial loss of her humanity, eg. Arya being killed as a human and having to permanently warg into Nymeria. Not the most unlikely scenario, but probably not what you have in mind, I'd guess.

But she apparently does not consider the FM her new pack - wouldn't that involve a stronger sense of loyality? Arya is not above trying to get things done under their radar (hiding needle for instance, killing the NW deserter), she doesn't seem to identify too strongly with them.

How do the other Starks have actual human pack mates? Also, If theories are correct Bran will ultimately be alone in that cave even if he does find a way to impact the story in other ways. If he has to become a tree he will survive but neither he or Summer will be with the pack.

Arya rebels but it's not like she didn't do that as Arya Stark and didn't want to play the role Ned had planned for her.

Nah, of course she's not the only possibility. She just seems like the most likely one to me right now, but it's all pure speculation. If you are only interested in things that can be said without doubt, this here is the wrong thread for you.

Your earlier post didn't mention Arya dying as a possibility but that she would die because there's no foreshadowing for her future and other reasons while they have foreshadowing for their future. I'm saying that you don't actually know that they have a potential future. The foreshadowing could just refer to how they will impact the story and yet they can still die at the end.

[Fire Eater]

Cersei slid her arm through his, and side by side they watched the fire rage.

Cersei has been described as wildfire by Sansa (Eyes of wildfire, Sansa thought.) and Jaime (Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire). This line foreshadows the destructive path Cersei follows later on, including her descent into madness.

I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together.

We will leave this world together, as we once came into it.

"If he were dead, I would know it. We came into this world together, Uncle. He would not go without me."

In the end, Jaime will guarantee that, and prove Cersei that she had the wrong valonqar.

[The Promised Prince]

I have this hobby of just opening any of the books in random pages and looking for any signs of foreshadowing.

AGOT, Jon Chapter (Before leaving for the wall):

Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you little sister."

Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. "I wish you were coming with us."

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?" He was feeling better now.

This one didn't happen yet. In this passage, Jon is leaving for castle black and Arya going to the red castle at KL. Might be hinting about Jon ending up in the Throne. I think this foreshadows Jon being King and R+L=J being true.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Tolkein is one of Martin's influences (and Martin is a fan of his) according to the man himself. What exactly is the confusion here?

I think it's quite possible to acknowledge one's influences and still trying not to be derivative.

[NotSoSilentSister]

How do the other Starks have actual human pack mates? Also, If theories are correct Bran will ultimately be alone in that cave even if he does find a way to impact the story in other ways. If he has to become a tree he will survive but neither he or Summer will be with the pack.

Well, the assumption is that the other Starks will reunite and be each others pack mates. People who hope for a happy ending for Bran usually assume that he'll end up in the cave at the end of his life.

and I can only restate that I've never claimed to actually know anything. I thought that in a thread of this nature, the fact that everything we say is mere speculation is self-evident and does not need to be stressed explicitely.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, the assumption is that the other Starks will reunite and be each others pack mates. People who hope for a happy ending for Bran usually assume that he'll end up in the cave at the end of his life.

The point is that he can still live despite not being with the pack or having one.

and I can only restate that I've never claimed to actually know anything. I thought that in a thread of this nature, the fact that everything we say is mere speculation is self-evident and does not need to be stressed explicitely.

I'm saying that using the foreshadowing about other characters future and her not having one as an additional reason for her death doesn't hold up as an argument because you don't actually know that it implies anything about where the characters will be at the end of the story.

But anyways, I've lost interest and it's clouding up the thread so we can stop.

I have this hobby of just opening any of the books in random pages and looking for any signs of foreshadowing.

AGOT, Jon Chapter (Before leaving for the wall):

Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you little sister."

Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. "I wish you were coming with us."

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?" He was feeling better now.

This one didn't happen yet. In this passage, Jon is leaving for castle black and Arya going to the red castle at KL. Might be hinting about Jon ending up in the Throne. I think this foreshadows Jon being King and R+L=J being true.

I believe that they will eventually meet at a castle although I'm not sure which exact one.

[Leto]

Considering that he's a big fan of Tolkein. No.

being a fan of tolkien and drawing insperation from his work does not imply retelling his stories..

[Ice Turtle]

“And this Myrish priest who runs with him? It is said he spreads his false faith everywhere.”

“Kill him, kiss him, or pray with him, as you please.”

“I have no wish to kiss the man, my lord.”

“No doubt he’d say the same of you.”

I think that Thoros and ser Bonifer will meet as enemies and ser Bonifer will be killed.

[Ice Turtle]

“Salladhor Saan thinks only of gold!” Stannis exploded. “His head is full of dreams of the treasure he fancies lies under the Red Keep, so let us hear no more of Salladhor Saan. The day I need military counsel from a Lysene brigand is the day I put off my crown and take the black.”

Shame there are no Lysene brigands around, but still....

[Kittykatknits]

I think it's quite possible to acknowledge one's influences and still trying not to be derivative.

being a fan of tolkien and drawing insperation from his work does not imply retelling his stories..

I would agree. But, Martin has described the ending of LotR as bittersweet and the sack of WF was directly influenced by the scouring of the Shire.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I would agree. But, Martin has described the ending of LotR as bittersweet and the sack of WF was directly influenced by the scouring of the Shire.

which are more genereal parallells, concerning the overall tone and themes of the narrative (the sack of WF/scouring of the Shire directly ties in with the bittersweet-ending thing, showing that a return to innocence is impossible, things will never be as they were, because the home of childhood has been destroyed). That's quite different from randomly lifting specific plot points.

That said, I'm a bit hypocritical in that respect, because ony of my favourite crackpot theories is that Cersei will be the ASOIF-version of Gollum and that Ned's mercy towards her will pay off in unexpected ways, because she's going to destroy something that needs destroying but wouldn't be destroyed by anyone else.

[Newstar]

The foreshadowing could just refer to how they will impact the story and yet they can still die at the end.

Yup. One line of argument I see over and over again is stuff like this: "Sansa has to survive the series, she's the younger, more beautiful queen prophesied to cast Cersei down!" Even if Sansa is the younger, more beautiful queen--and that's by no means certain--she could still become queen and die before the end of the series. Ditto for Jon becoming king, Dany becoming queen of Westeros, etc. etc. They could do X, Y, and Z important thing, and still die before the end of the series. One doesn't rule out the other.

“Salladhor Saan thinks only of gold!” Stannis exploded. “His head is full of dreams of the treasure he fancies lies under the Red Keep, so let us hear no more of Salladhor Saan. The day I need military counsel from a Lysene brigand is the day I put off my crown and take the black.”

Shame there are no Lysene brigands around, but still....

Love it, Ice Turtle. Stannis always seemed like great NW material. He'd make a great Lord Commander, although I don't think he'll live long enough. Are there any other examples of this kind of language in the books? I've also noticed when a character says that they'll "never" do something, they often wind up doing that very thing (ditto for them talking about what a horrible fate X would be, or pitying someone for being X, like Jaime saying "Give me a good clean death" rather than be a cripple).

We will leave this world together, as we once came into it.

There is a lot of foreshadowing for Cersei and Jaime dying together and for Jaime being the valonqar, including the above quote from Cersei. On the other hand, Cersei is always wrong...

[NotSoSilentSister]

There is a lot of foreshadowing for Cersei and Jaime dying together and for Jaime being the valonqar, including the above quote from Cersei. On the other hand, Cersei is always wrong...

One could read Jaime's weirwood dream as forshadowing that Cersei will die before Jaime - she's among the dead members of family who all leave him before his final stand.

[Ice Turtle]

I have lost my daughters, Robb does not want me, and Bran and Rickon must surely think me a cold and unnatural mother.

Catelyn ACoK. Rather fitting description for an undead.

[Fire Eater]

[Dagmer]The living should smile for the dead cannot.

Tywin Lannister did on his bier, compared to life where he seldom smiled.

[tze]

Given the way GRRM seems to love using songs as foreshadowing, it's interesting to look at the song Rymund the Rhymer composed about Robb Stark's victory at Oxcross:

"And the stars in the night were the eyes of his wolves, and the wind itself was their song."

Between the verses, Rymund threw back his head and howled, and by the end, half of the hall was howling along with him, even Desmond Grell, who was well in his cups.

I wonder if this song actually has implications for Jon, not Robb? It's called "Wolf in the Night", and Jon is a wolf in the Night's Watch. Stars as eyes evokes the story of Symeon Star-Eyes, who spent time at the Nightfort (and thus, has some unrevealed association with the Wall), and Jon of course describes the wight Othor's eyes as "blue stars". In her final chapter of AFFC, Sansa hears the wind howling and thinks it sounds like "a ghost wolf". And Ser Desmond Grell is supposedly now en route to the Wall.

[Ice Turtle]

“The wolves are howling,” their leader said. Ned could see rain running down his face. “Such a small pack, though.”

The man speaking is Jaime, the wolves here are northmen, but maybe Jaime will have an encounter with a huge pack of real wolves in the future.

[Fire Eater]

The ADwD Prologue introduced wargs having a second life in their animals.

Jon named his direwolf Ghost the direwolf's name foreshadows Jon's consciousness (or "ghost") slipping into Ghost after Jon "dies".