If the Red Viper really did poison Tywin...why didn't he die sooner?

[Axrendale]

Can't arsenic poison or even lead poisoning take months to kill a person? There are whole conspiracy theories surrounding Napoleon Bonaparte's death on St. Helena that he was slowly poisoned by arsenic.

Only if the victim is exposed to the substance repeatedly. I don't see anybody suggesting that Tywin had poison administered to him more than once.

[Axrendale]

That comment in bold just showed your ignorance to this topic. You do realize there is magic in the ASOIAF world, don't ya? What if the poison used on Tywin was mixed with sorcery?

As GRRM said in his interview; the ASOIAF world is different from the real world because of magic. Comparing fantasy poisons with real poisons is pretty silly IMO.

Shaw: I wasn't sure if you had added something to obsidian for the fantasy.

Martin: I've given it magical characteristics that of course real obsidian doesn't necessarily have. After all, we live in a world that has no magic. My world does have magic, so it's a little bit different.

I am perfectly aware of the role that various forms of magic have played in the developing story of ASOIAF - and it is precisely the way that magic has been worked into these books that makes me highly skeptical of any kind of sorcerous poison being featured in Tywin's death. Every time (I challenge you to find an exception) that magic has made an appearance in the books - the qualities of dragonglass, the methods of the Faceless Men, the birth of dragons, the shamanism of various figures, the role of prophecy - it has done so only after having been alluded to and/or foreshadowed in some way. I see no reason to believe that a powerful poison with a built-in timer would be an exception to this rule.

As I have said, the only reason we have thus far for suspicion that Tywin may have been poisoned lies in the rotting of his corpse - the reasons for which we have no concrete idea of except for guesswork and the powerful symbolism of it.

[LordAlexOfTheWolds]

Perhaps Tywin knew he had been poisoned, and not wanting to suffer a slow painful death, wound Tyrion up enough to the point where he killed him... He was a smart man after all...

(I know this probably isn't true, but thought I'd put it out there...)

[Third World King]

I am perfectly aware of the role that various forms of magic have played in the developing story of ASOIAF - and it is precisely the way that magic has been worked into these books that makes me highly skeptical of any kind of sorcerous poison being featured in Tywin's death. Every time (I challenge you to find an exception) that magic has made an appearance in the books - the qualities of dragonglass, the methods of the Faceless Men, the birth of dragons, the shamanism of various figures, the role of prophecy - it has done so only after having been alluded to and/or foreshadowed in some way. I see no reason to believe that a powerful poison with a built-in timer would be an exception to this rule.

As I have said, the only reason we have thus far for suspicion that Tywin may have been poisoned lies in the rotting of his corpse - the reasons for which we have no concrete idea of except for guesswork and the powerful symbolism of it.

Is this foreshadowing not enough for you?

Ser Gregor." Qyburn shrugged. "I have examined him, as you commanded. The poison on the Viper's spear was manticore venom from the east, I would stake my life on that."

"Pycelle says no. He told my lord father that manticore venom kills the instant it reaches the heart."

"And so it does. But this venom has been thickened somehow, so as to draw out the Mountain's dying."

"Thickened? Thickened how? With some other substance?"

"It may be as Your Grace suggests, though in most cases adulterating a poison only lessens its potency. It may be that the cause is . . . less natural, let us say. A spell, I think."

Is this one as big a fool as Pycelle? "So are you telling me that the Mountain is dying of some black sorcery?"- Cersei AFoC

[Axrendale]

Is this foreshadowing not enough for you?

No it is not. All that this quote demonstrates is that sorcerous methods can be used to alter the properties of poisons/venoms - not prevent them from having any effect at all until a certain time. Gregor began to suffer the effects of the thickened manticore venom very shortly after the fight was over - as soon as Pycelle began trying to treat his wounds the symptoms of poisoning were noted (it was only the nature of the poison and the means of its production that were a mystery until explained by Qyburn). Tywin went for days or weeks after his supposed poisoning without showing any noticeable symptoms at all - the only abnormality being the rotting of his corpse. There has yet to be seen any sort of evidence from the text that Oberyn poisoned him.

[Third World King]

No it is not. All that this quote demonstrates is that sorcerous methods can be used to alter the properties of poisons/venoms - not prevent them from having any effect at all until a certain time. Gregor began to suffer the effects of the thickened manticore venom very shortly after the fight was over - as soon as Pycelle began trying to treat his wounds the symptoms of poisoning were noted (it was only the nature of the poison and the means of its production that were a mystery until explained by Qyburn). Tywin went for days or weeks after his supposed poisoning without showing any noticeable symptoms at all - the only abnormality being the rotting of his corpse.

The point is: with sorcery, you can basically do things that were not possible with ordinary poison. Oberyn used sorcery to lengthen the time the poison was supposed to kick in, just as he used sorcery to prolong the effects of the poison in Gregor.

There has yet to be seen any sort of evidence from the text that Oberyn poisoned him.

I have already showed you the quote that hinted that Tywin was poisoned by Oberyn. If you still do not see it, it ain't my fault really.

[Jayce]

Might he still of been poisoned, only not directly by Oberyn and not at the time of that dinner?

I honestly don't think he had been poisoned but to only go after 1 instance when there was ample time with ample people who wanted Tywin dead since then seems a bit short sighted.

Personally I think his corpse just rotted fast as the conditions were right and/or he wasn't prepared after death properly (removing of the insides and blood being replaced, etc), maybe on purpose as a "fuck you Tywin" kind of thing.

[Jayce]

Although the evidence is interesting, like a lot of evidence for various theories people gather on here (including myself, Northern Conspiration) doesn't this quote prove the opposite though;

He found his father where he knew he’d find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips.

[…]

For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.

Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.

If his bowels were blocked by poison surely they would not release at the instant of death like normal, poison free bowels would?

Edit: Typos.

[Third World King]

No it is not. All that this quote demonstrates is that sorcerous methods can be used to alter the properties of poisons/venoms - not prevent them from having any effect at all until a certain time. Gregor began to suffer the effects of the thickened manticore venom very shortly after the fight was over - as soon as Pycelle began trying to treat his wounds the symptoms of poisoning were noted (it was only the nature of the poison and the means of its production that were a mystery until explained by Qyburn). Tywin went for days or weeks after his supposed poisoning without showing any noticeable symptoms at all - the only abnormality being the rotting of his corpse. There has yet to be seen any sort of evidence from the text that Oberyn poisoned him.

By the way, are you aware of this little history?

King Faisal the 1st of Iraq (King Faisal bin Al Husain)

According to his British nurse, Lady Badget, he suffered from similar symptoms to Arsenic poisoning during his last visit to Switzerland for treatment in 1938 at the age of 48. His Swiss doctors found him in a very healthy situation a day before.

Just because someone is apparently healthy, does not mean that they have not been poisoned.

[three-eyed monkey]

Personally, I think Tywin was poisoned. As the person that posted the original theory noted, Oberyn had means, motive, and opportunity.

Oberyn was not going to be happy with Gregor's death, he wanted Tywin too as the man that gave Gregor and Lorch their orders. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword, as Tyrion noted. I, for one, would find it hard to believe that Oberyn did not have a plan to kill Tywin.

As far as the poison goes, it is clear that the manticore poison used on the Mountain was altered by Tyene Sand to make Gregor's death a slow and painful matter. I'm not going to bother speculating if this was done by means of sorcery, witchcraft, herbcraft, or what have you, because it would only be a guess. But it was done and Gregor took days or weeks to die instead of the instant it reached his heart as Pycelle expected. If Tyene can do that with Manticore poison, then I tend to think it's at least plausible that she could do it with Widow's blood, or whatever poison was used.

So if Tywin was poisoned in his solar by Oberyn then why didn't he die sooner? To this I would say that too soon might be suspicous. As Oberyn says to Tyrion of Joff's death; “To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you.” If Tywin died quickly from poisoning then I think the Red Viper would have instantly become a suspect. But if Tywin is given a poison that shuts down say his liver, as opposed to his bowel and bladder, then he might not show symptoms for weeks, the first of which would probably be jaundice, and might even live for up to six months. Oberyn could well be back in Dorne by then if things went to plan, and he might not even be a suspect as Tywin's death could go down as natural liver failure, depending on the maester's skill in determining exact cause of death by autopsy, which I expect would be limited by modern standards. And while Tywin's symptoms might not show for some time, toxins would be accumulating in his blood and cell tissues from the very beginning of the organ failure which would account for the stinking corpse.

[A wilding]

Personally, I think Tywin was poisoned. As the person that posted the original theory noted, Oberyn had means, motive, and opportunity.

Certainly Oberyn intended Tywin to die: "I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane ... but not I think ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity the Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your Lord Father of that."

But as for the "means, motive and opportunity":

- Means: He apparently used some unknown poison of which we have no other inkling. Handwaving that he had a wide knowledge of poisons does not IMO provide enough support for such a crucial plot point. (Incidentally though he did make the poison for his spear, the quote from Tyene is "I know what poison my father used".)

- Motive: He wanted justice/revenge for Elia. I doubt that meant he wanted Tywin to die apparently of natural causes as far as the world was concerned. From the quote above he wanted Tywin to know and to see it coming.

- Opportunity: He was in Tywin's solar at least once (the "breaking bread" was a flippant assumption of Jaime's). Again hardly conclusive.

All in all, this theory does not pass the "obvious when you see it" test, or the "it explains so many things" one.

[three-eyed monkey]

Incidentally though he did make the poison for his spear, the quote from Tyene is "I know what poison my father used".

I couldn't recall if she had made the poison or if it was Oberyn, so thanks for providing the quote and refreshing my memory.

Still, the main objection raised by the OP is that if Oberyn poisoned Tywin he would have died or shown some symptoms sooner. I don't think that is necessarily the case. I agree we cannot prove the theory, but I nor can we disprove it on the basis that Tywin would have died sooner (imho).

[I_Do_Not_Sow]

The whole sorcery angle is why I said I wouldn't feel confident ruling it out completely, since the novels are set in a fantasy world, however we still have to assume a lot, and it still doesn't make it obvious in the slightest. Making a poison that goes into effect almost immediately but is designed to make someone suffer and basically beg for death like on Gregor does not confirm that same person made a different poison that takes weeks or even longer to go into effect. Basically I'm more trying to point out holes in the theory that the Red Viper poisoned Tywin at that time with that poison and that his comments reflect that. To rule out poisoning completely by some other potion or by another person or at another time is hard to just because...well anything can happen that we don't even know about and an explanation may come out later that explains how it was possible. Also, we don't even know if it's 100% certain Oberyn used some "sorcery" in Gregor's poison, from that conversation between Qyburn and Cersei, he says she may be correct in that it was thickened with another substance, he just thinks it's a spell since "most" of the time altering poisons lessen the potency. So the whole sorcery idea isn't definite in my opinion, Maesters aren't exactly infallible, though still possible.

[Grimwolfe]

my guess is, what with Oberyn's vast knowledge of poisons, that it was a very slow acting one, mayhaps to seem more natural, which would explain Tywin's situation when tyrion finds him, and the foulness of his corpse.

For all we know Tywin could have been showing symptoms earlier on of unease, nausea, stomach pains etc. But tywin seems like a very private man, and all we had to go on was other characters, mainly Tyrions, POV

[Larry of the Lawn]

@ OP - uh, I know you addressed this, but just stating the obvious - Oberyn poisoned Gregor too and it took him like months or weeks to die... so Tywin suffering from a poison that might take a week... not that weird?

[I_Do_Not_Sow]

If you know it's already been addressed, why ask the same question? It's not the same type of poison, or designed to do the same thing, and we don't even know if it affected him at all even weeks after administration. The poison he gave Gregor went into effect not long after it was inflicted to him, and was designed to draw out his suffering, whether by combining it with some other substance, or some king of magic. All the theory mainly goes by is how his body is AFTER he died, and the fact there was someone who knew about poison around him at some point. There was no evidence he was poisoned while he was alive, no mention of him being sick, or even in any kind of discomfort. All we know is Tyrion found him on the toilet. Hardly convincing material that means it was so obvious he was poisoned it was staring us in the face the entire time, at least to me. No evidence of poison was found in his system after he died either that I'm aware of, unless it was mentioned and I just missed it. I can't dismiss the theory completely since anything of course is possible, however we are assuming a lot of things if we just say outright that Oberyn definitely did poison Tywin and it just never went into effect because Tyrion got to him first. Either that or like I said, Tywin was drowning in his poisons the entire time yet somehow was displaying perfect health, and the reason I have to assume he wasn't displaying anything else is because no one made any mention of it at all. Even Jamie would have heard if he was suffering from something in his POV chapters, Tyrion would have noticed it before he killed him, etc.

[three-eyed monkey]

All the theory mainly goes by is how his body is AFTER he died, and the fact there was someone who knew about poison around him at some point.

To be fair, it is more than "the fact there was someone who knew about poison around him at some point." Oberyn had motive to poison Tywin. His conversations with Tyrion led Tyrion to believe that Oberyn wanted the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. So Tyrion suspected that Oberyn wanted Tywin dead, as well as Gregor.

If Oberyn did come to KL to poison the Hand, then a slow acting poison would increase his chance of getting away with it, and that would be important. If it left Tywin dead or in pain and showing symptoms of poisoning shortly after entertaining the Red Viper in his solar, then there would clearly be implications for Oberyn, the Dornish contingent in KL, and could even result in war. Why go to that trouble when there is another option. As Jaime once told us; "Death by poison can seem natural." This would be the smarter route imo.

It's a theory, not a fact. It might never be proven unless we hear something from Ellaria Sand, Doran or the Sand Snakes that adds substantial weight to the theory, but I think it is plausible and, personally, I believe it to be probable. The fact that Tywin was not yet showing any symptoms is not enough for me to change my mind because, as I stated above, something like liver failure can take weeks to present anything other than non-specific symptoms like fatigue, despite the fact that the affected person's toxin levels are increasing by the day.

[I_Do_Not_Sow]

I know he had motive, and wanted him dead. Tywin knew that as well. Which is still part of the reason I find it unlikely that Tywin Lannister, one of the smartest and most strategic characters in the series, would have the Red Viper around him and not be as suspicious and as guarded as possible at every turn. If you knew someone wanted you dead would you leave them around your food alone, knowing they were a known master of poisons? I certainly wouldn't. Now, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been outsmarted, just saying, this is Tywin Lannister here. And to be honest, if the Red Viper was so good that he could poison him and have no maester find any trace of poison in him (At least that we know of, but certainly that would have been mentioned), then no matter how long it took to poison him, even if it was a fast acting poison that kicked in only a few days after they ate together, they wouldn't have been able to trace it back to him anyway. With no trace of poison, you can't exactly blame someone for poisoning him and be able to prove it. Sure SOME speculation would arise of course, but it seems unlikely the Red Viper would have cared anyway even if they did suspect him, he made it clear he was there to get revenge on both Gregor and Tywin like you said. I don't believe he cared at all if Tywin died of mysterious circumstances while he was there, the poison he used was untraceable, and I don't believe they would have risked a war with Dorne over some speculation, but maybe I'm wrong on that, but Dorne did still have Myrcella, so killing him or throwing him in prison just doesn't seem likely unless they have extremely good cause and some sort of evidence.

Considering the fact he died anyway at the hands of Tyrion, if he was poisoned, it seems utterly pointless, which isn't evidence that he wasn't poisoned, but I can't help but wonder why GRRM would have him poisoned if it never kicked in (at least to our knowledge) and he died a different way anyway, and his body left no traces of poison at all.

[Scott Blackfyre]

Mayhaps Oberyn did not want him to die, but rather to suffer. Suffer for a long time. Not all poisons kill. Anyone who has eaten a bad piece of chicken r oyster can attest to this. You feel like you are going to die, but recover. What if the substance was similar.

Must be a bad stomach or similar, people could think. He would want Tywin dead sure, but why not watch him in pain for a time while at court.

[I_Do_Not_Sow]

Well if he wanted to watch Tywin in pain he should have picked a poison that actually gives you symptoms. Besides, if Widow's Blood was actually the poison used, there is no way a man can survive for very long without ever going to the bathroom. Just try eating and drinking regularly and going 3 days without going to the bathroom...it's nearly impossible and will start causing you major discomfort. Any longer the poisons still in your system are really going to start taking their toll, and it's going to be obvious you're in some pain. If it's the kind of poison that wears off after a few days and then goes back to working...well I just wouldn't understand how that would be possible. The poison must be sentient and aware of when it's supposed to work and then not work.