Jon is dead. His watch has ended.

[Scipio Africanus]

I don't think that he'd be precisely like the "fire" undeads. My objection is that I think necromancy in any form is problematic for the universe-- it's what the Others do as well (though technically I think the Others just "wear" corpses rather than offer life). I get the distinct feeling that magic-induced "rebirth"-- whether by fire or ice-- goes against nature, and needs to end as part of regaining "balance."

It seems to me there are several different forms of undead, just like you'd find in any fantasy roleplaying setting.

The wights are clearly zombies, i.e. animated by magic and having few to no thought processes of their own other then serving their master.

The HotU countryclub are more like mummies, retaining some thought processes but hating the living, but it's hard to classify their abilities from one scene alone.

Bob Strong strikes me more like a golem, a creature animated by a specific user for specific taks but with no thought processes of their own.

unCat and Beric Dondarrion strike me more like vampires, undead yet keeping memories of their past life, but motivated by a specific task (Beric was maintaining the King's justice, unCat wants to kill Freys/Lannisters).

Jon wouldn't fall in any of those catagories. His body may be destroyed (if it is even that) his mind is uneffected, as evidenced by the other skinchangers we see in the texts.

At the very least in the short term he wouldn't have to suffer any personality changes or mental imbalances.

[Arland]

It seems to me there are several different forms of undead, just like you'd find in any fantasy roleplaying setting.

The wights are clearly zombies, i.e. animated by magic and having few to no thought processes of their own other then serving their master.

The HotU countryclub are more like mummies, retaining some thought processes but hating the living, but it's hard to classify their abilities from one scene alone.

Bob Strong strikes me more like a golem, a creature animated by a specific user for specific taks but with no thought processes of their own.

unCat and Beric Dondarrion strike me more like vampires, undead yet keeping memories of their past life, but motivated by a specific task (Beric was maintaining the King's justice, unCat wants to kill Freys/Lannisters).

Jon wouldn't fall in any of those catagories. His body may be destroyed (if it is even that) his mind is uneffected, as evidenced by the other skinchangers we see in the texts.

At the very least in the short term he wouldn't have to suffer any personality changes or mental imbalances.

Don't forget the "Coldhands" a friendly "Old Gods" magic zombie, who was quite talkative.

[butterbumps!]

There will be balance. After Dany went into the fire and exited (may be even died and was reborn as a process) John going into the ice and being reborn is the second part of the equation.

And then what, though? Becomes a champion of ice? Does he lead the Others, or does he use their magic against them? I could buy Jon's using the magic of Others against them, though I can't help think that if anyone does this it will be Bran.

I think the desire for Jon to die and be reborn misses a few considerable points. First, do you really want to see Jon have a "get out of jail free" card, where this decision is made for him?

Secondly, and more interesting, the NW vow seems to have magical properties when said in front of a weirwood as Jon did. If Jon no longer has the binding of the oath and he can now get out of the Watch, then whatever protection he has from saying this oath is also lost. This is significant.

[Scipio Africanus]

Don't forget the "Coldhands" a friendly "Old Gods" magic zombie, who was quite talkative.

Forgot about him in truth, although I think he was likely resurrected by the Others but later "overtaken" by CotF magic.

He is an anomoly to be sure.

[The Lord of Boners]

Or he could just stay dead and be the cause of a mass suicide on westeros.org.

Just sayin'...

[Free Northman]

Secondly, and more interesting, the NW vow seems to have magical properties when said in front of a weirwood as Jon did. If Jon no longer has the binding of the oath and he can now get out of the Watch, then whatever protection he has from saying this oath is also lost. This is significant.

Fat lot of good that vow has done all the brothers that have been slain by wights or Others to date.

[butterbumps!]

Fat lot of good that vow has done all the brothers that have been slain by wights or Others to date.

To be honest, I think that Coldhands is the way he is because I suspect that he said his vows in the grove. Almost none of the Watchmen currently at the Wall swear by the Old Gods any longer, which is why I suspect the wightifying works on them. It's been hinted that swearing there is significant, and I think that this will come into play.

[Third World King]

Bran will be the one who raises him. And if his spirit is in Ghost while his body is in stasis beneath the preserving spells of the Wall, then he will remain himself until the body is ready to house his spirit again.

How will Bran raise Jon Snow from the dead?

[Free Northman]

How will Bran raise Jon Snow from the dead?

Like Mirri Maz Duur healed Drogo. Through blood sacrifice. Theon's Kingsblood lifeforce gets absorbed into the weirnet, and it is channeled into Jon's body where it lies in front of another Heart Tree. He is then healed and his body returns to normal.

Unlike Drogo, though, he warged out of his body the moment it died, hence his soul did not depart for the Nightlands or Afterlife or dissolve back into nature or whatever happens to a normal soul upon death.

So once his body is resurrected, he can just warg back into it and be his full functional self again.

[Third World King]

Like Mirri Maz Duur healed Drogo. Through blood sacrifice. Theon's Kingsblood lifeforce gets absorbed into the weirnet, and it is channeled into Jon's body where it lies in front of another Heart Tree. He is then healed and his body returns to normal.

Unlike Drogo, though, he warged out of his body the moment it died, hence his soul did not depart for the Nightlands or Afterlife or dissolve back into nature or whatever happens to a normal soul upon death.

So once his body is resurrected, he can just warg back into it and be his full functional self again.

Bran uses Bloodmagic?

[Free Northman]

Bran uses Bloodmagic?

That's what the weirnet is based on. That's what ALL magic is based on. On the lifeforce of living beings as represented by blood.

The weirnet channels this power in an indirect way, as it consumes the lifeforce of all living things that die in nature and get recycled in the endless cycle of life.

But when great magical feats are required, blood sacrifice is used, as is hinted at with Bran's last vision through the weirnet, when he saw the old, white haired woman sacrificing a captive with a cruved bronze knife in front of the then very young Heart Tree in Winterfell's godswood.

[Budj]

Like Mirri Maz Duur healed Drogo. Through blood sacrifice. Theon's Kingsblood lifeforce gets absorbed into the weirnet, and it is channeled into Jon's body where it lies in front of another Heart Tree. He is then healed and his body returns to normal.

Unlike Drogo, though, he warged out of his body the moment it died, hence his soul did not depart for the Nightlands or Afterlife or dissolve back into nature or whatever happens to a normal soul upon death.

So once his body is resurrected, he can just warg back into it and be his full functional self again.

I've brought this up before too. I think this makes the most sense and avoids the plot knot of Jon being indebted to Mel. This keeps him separate...and allows him to make death bend the knee... Yea it isn't fair, but maybe that's why the Kings of Winter/Starks of old were so revered.

As far as his oath is concerned...even if he leaves the NW Jon will not be foresaking that oath. He is truly committed to defending the realm from the threat north of the wall and as has been discussed before I think the "spirit" of the vow is way more important than the literalness of it.

[Free Northman]

I've brought this up before too. I think this makes the most sense and avoids the plot knot of Jon being indebted to Mel. This keeps him separate...and allows him to make death bend the knee... Yea it isn't fair, but maybe that's why the Kings of Winter/Starks of old were so revered.

As far as his oath is concerned...even if he leaves the NW Jon will not be foresaking that oath. He is truly committed to defending the realm from the threat north of the wall and as has been discussed before I think the "spirit" of the vow is way more important than the literalness of it.

Indeed. "Our honor is worth no more than our lives when the fate of the realm is at stake." Quorin Halfhand to Jon Snow.

[Third World King]

That's what the weirnet is based on. That's what ALL magic is based on. On the lifeforce of living beings as represented by blood.

The weirnet channels this power in an indirect way, as it consumes the lifeforce of all living things that die in nature and get recycled in the endless cycle of life.

But when great magical feats are required, blood sacrifice is used, as is hinted at with Bran's last vision through the weirnet, when he saw the old, white haired woman sacrificing a captive with a cruved bronze knife in front of the then very young Heart Tree in Winterfell's godswood.

Well, if Bran does use bloodmagic, I for one, am glad the time of the children of the forest is at an end. I am glad the Andals burnt most of the weirwood. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Please, Jon, die.

[Jayce]

"Only death can pay for life."

And

"King's Blood is required to raise a dragon."

A King will therefore be sacrificed in front of a Heart Tree to raise Jon from the dead. And he will be good as new, not an undead zombie.

Like Theon, who is technically King of the Iron Islands as Balon's son rather then Euron because of the Kingsmoot as the Kingsmoot is null and void because Theon wasn't there. Kill him at a heart tree and voila, Bran can use his "King's blood" to help Jon rise.

I don't like the "Jon dies, his Watch is ended, so now he can be king" issue for a couple of reasons:

1. I don't want Jon to get out of his vows on a technicality; if he's going to break his oath, I'd like it to be by choice. He can lead the wildlings, Northmen and Watchmen without actually wearing crowns or holding lands provided that he is working toward the goal of the NW, which is protecting the realms of men.

2. There are hints that's there is some powerful magic in oaths sworn before the weirwood beyond the Wall. I think that in terms of the coming battle the fact that Jon swore the oath there will play a role in the defeat of the Others.

3. I think that all of these "undeads" running around are a bad thing and contribute to the imbalance of nature. I don't know that Jon can be a force of good as a zombie in the grand scheme of the universe's magic.

4. I'm pretty sure he's just unconscious, will have an "awakening vision" (courtesy of Bran or Bloodraven), and figure out what he needs to do.

Point 1, if Jon uses this technicality to get out then it is his choice still. If the others make him leave, he can still choose to be faithful to his oaths. Bottom line is regardless of this technicality it is still his choice.

To be honest, I think that Coldhands is the way he is because I suspect that he said his vows in the grove. Almost none of the Watchmen currently at the Wall swear by the Old Gods any longer, which is why I suspect the wightifying works on them. It's been hinted that swearing there is significant, and I think that this will come into play.

You might be right here, come on George we need more!

[Ice Turtle]

I think the desire for Jon to die and be reborn misses a few considerable points. First, do you really want to see Jon have a "get out of jail free" card, where this decision is made for him?

Do you know term "being Jonned" it's called that for a reason. I don't agree with that thread 100%, but I really think that "never having to make hard choices or face their consequences, being saved out of moral dilemmas by plot devices" kind of fit Jon's story. To name three cases: When Stannis showed up before he could decide if he is going to kill Mance, when Summer saved him after he couldn't kill old man, when his friends stopped him from deserting .

[RandallFlagg]

Could Jon become the next King-Beyond-the-Wall? If he lives, he can't remain in the Night's Watch. They literally stabbed him in the back.

Also, Stannis will be pretty angry about this whole dust-up. Will he even be welcomed back at the Wall? He supported Jon. What about the Queen & her men? What will the Watch do with them?

[SecretNegative]

Grah, so annoying that Jon died the way he did, it almost guarentees that he will live to see another day, god damn it. His chapters in ADwD was some of the most boring shit I've ever read.

[mitch176]

Could Jon become the next King-Beyond-the-Wall? If he lives, he can't remain in the Night's Watch. They literally stabbed him in the back.

Also, Stannis will be pretty angry about this whole dust-up. Will he even be welcomed back at the Wall? He supported Jon. What about the Queen & her men? What will the Watch do with them?

This is what I find important, whether Jon dies and is reborn or just straight out lives, I believe what's really important are the answers to these questions.