Ice and Fire Assessment...Theory (Long Read)

[idiotking]

It fits well with Grrm's original inspiration. I remember reading he thought of the basic idea while standing on Hadrian's wall. He was imagining being a roman soldier (valyrian) looking out at the wild untamed Scotland and being terrified of what might be out there (the others). This would explain why the andals (Saxons) are not going to be a major part of the big picture come the end game.

Love that -- all this War of the Roses stuff going on down south, ignoring the storm brewing to the north... I guess the Wildlings DO take after the Scots quite a bit, don't they! ;)

It's unclear how much cooperation was established in the Pact, but from later sources we learn that the Children and the humans had a common interest in winning the War for the Dawn against the Others.

Sam's sources in the library of Castle Black reveal that it was customary for the Children to gift the Night's Watch with 100 obsidian blades for year after the end of the War for the Dawn. This suggestes at least a degree of cooperation and common interest between the two sides and against the Others. Tidbits like this are an indication that any kind of cooperation, deal, or understanding between the Starks and the Others is extremely unlikely.

The reaction of the Wildlings and the the lords of the North to the Night's King shows us everything we need to know about the fate of those who cooperate with the Others. This alignment is not tolerated among humans, even those Houses traditionally associated with ice or winter imagery.

:agree: good job of pointing out some of the bigger weak points in a very interesting (but as I said, probably far from 100% "correct) theory. Winter clearly isn't a "good" thing to any of the living races we've met. Even the northmen, with the blood of the First Men strong within them, suffer and die in large numbers when winter comes. The Starks only fare marginally better thanks to Winterfell being located above natural hot springs, allowing them to stay warm and grow some food even in deepest winter -- not due to some inherent love of cold!

I *do* sometimes wonder though about the games the White Walkers may have played after their initial loss and the building of the wall... Night's King... Symeon Star-Eyes...

Then Bran had his second set of visions which ended with the white haired woman cutting a man's throat in front of Winterfell's heart tree. Her sickle-shaped blade echoed the crescent moon that GRRM used as a time-keeper throughout Bran's POVs. As Bran watched this last vision, his mouth filled with the taste of blood. Whose blood was he tasting? The sacrificed prisoner's or that of someone else?

I think we're all pretty much agreed that the Heart Trees are "awakened" by sacrificing someone and spilling their blood before them, right?

[Stoned Dragon]

I completely love this! Kudos!

I also hadn't thought out the connection between the glass candles and the weir wood trees. The idea that the glass candles allow the Valaryains see far and communicate like the Weirdwood network seems so obvious now. Especially since the glass candles are actually obsidian, so that they are literally fire made solid. It also adds an interesting dimension to the ritual the Maesters have to undertake where they have to light the glass candle - which is thought impossible. Those that try are forced to cut themselves a few times, perhaps a vestige of the ways in which the candles were lit in Valaryia - with a blood sacrifice.

Anyway, totally interesting!

[David C. Hunter]

One could also compare White Walkers and Red priests.

1.) Both seem to have the capabilities to raise the dead.

2.) Both seem to have the capabilities to literally control someone - Night King for White Walker, Stannis for Mel

3.) One can do wonders with Flame (Maybe White Walkers can do wonders with Ice)

[Ciazio]

Bravo Ser, very well done.

Another parallel that strikes me is that we have a Valyrian family, the Targaryens, who rode dragons in battle, yelling "Fire and Blood!" and wielding a sword named "Blackfyre".

Than we have another family, of First Men blood: the Starks, the Kings of Winter, who went in battle wielding a sword named "Ice" and yelling "Winter is Coming!".

What's left out in this parallel? Dragons. The Starks need a "magical icy creature" to use in battle and the direwolves are not that creature... are they... the White Walkers?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to see if my theory is correct: Is Benjen going to be the Ice leader, the Night's King? Battling Dany with Jon trying to establish balance? And Bran? Where does he fit in this picture? Awwwww.... I need answers.

[The Undefeated Gaul]

Pretty much just summed up the entire series. Good work. I like the idea of fire vs. ice and Jon Snow being both, adding a balance.

[evita mgfs]

Ice and Fire Assessment

Look at the Valyrians and First Men and a speculation of their history and purpose

A lot of what I will type many of us already believe, but I wanted to organize everything into one theory.

snip

White Walkers and the Starks:

I know many are not set on the connection between the White Walkers and the Starks through my interpretation of the Last hero, however even if you are not sold on the idea of the Last Hero selling his soul to the White Walkers for survival, you have to admit that the theory has merit. In fact, it happens again.

The 13^th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch was brother to the Stark King(I believe this – Nan is never wrong). At one point he falls in love with a pale skinned, blue eyes woman. He takes her for his wife and when he gives her his seed, she takes his soul. He declares himself the Night’s King and rules tyrannically over the Night’s Watch for 13 years. Eventually, the King Beyond the Wall and the King in the North join forces to take him out. Eventually they find out that he was sacrificing children to the White Walkers and they had all files and evidence of his existence removed. A few things to take from this:

1.) The King Beyond the Wall and the King in the North evidently got along

2.) It took them thirteen years to realize that the Night’s King was a threat

3.) They didn’t really seem to care that he married a White Walker, but seemed more upset at the fact that he was ruling over them in a torturous, tyrannical way.

4.) The White Walkers were clearly not obliterated during the Long Winter and seemed to be doing fine beyond the wall.

5.) Once they found out that he was sacrificing to the White Walkers, they expunged all records of his existence. It seemed as if this wasn’t the first time that this has happened.

, they will have to unite or fall. Either that or GRRM wants Winter to come out on top in this one by defeating the Dragons

Very long read, I appreciate who gets through this. Obviously I had many assumptions in this, but let me know what yall think.

This entire post was amazing and well- written. I had thought that Jon Snow might lead an army of Starks and their direwolves once a blood sacrifice is made to the heart tree. Perhaps the blood of a prince or king will feed the roots of trees to free the Stark spirits, who will then be a scary force needing someone to lead; however, they may just exact a vengeance on the Boltons who are violating the laws of hospitality by taking up residence in WF with Lord Bran Stark hidden behind a laughing ww and a murder of ravens.

Bran remembers Lady Hornwood and her fingers. He promised Lady Donella Winterfell remembers, so its more for the north that the Starks will rise. They have vengeance for the nmummer's farce in front of the heart tree, for bringing in a fake Stark, for Ramsay abusing Jeyne Pool with Theon and dog. Why the dog - I think that is symbolic as well - making a Stark do nasty things with a dog - sort of next to a wolf - speaks to your comparison of Bolton hunting and wearing Stark skins.

This also can be linked to Roose's obsession with leeching, for he has the bad blood; not the good Stark blood he covets. Why do maesters need leeches? - just for healing purposes, or might they use the leeches on the lords they serve to get king's blood? - the way Mel used Edric Storm's blood to put a spell on Joffrey, and two others, I cannot remember now.

Just a few thoughts - not near as good as your brilliant analysis. Good job. The read was worth it. I learned quite a bit. :dunno:

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Why david.... U are scared if CotF ?

U feel so safe when reading of House if Black and White. Also Bran is my favourite to read. I liked his arc.

What happens at the awakening of weirwood trees ? What can a greenseer accomplish or affect ?

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Greenseers are old gods.

Can it be that each green seer has his own agenda to follow ?

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Great post! :bowdown: Very well written.

I agree with/can see most of the things you've stated. I just have one tiny question. (I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, I didn't read the comments yet.)

There is something different this generation. No one has ever been born with both Valyrian and First Men blood.

I think Bloodraven IS of both Valyrian and First Men blood. His father was Aegon the Unworthy and his mother was a lady from House Blackwood. But seeing as how Bloodraven IS important in the whole ice/fire balance theory you've proposed, I don't think it upsets your original ideas at all =)

[evita mgfs]

Greenseers are old gods.

Can it be that each green seer has his own agenda to follow ?

This is where I am at right now. One of my crackpot theories is that Howland Reed is himself sitting a ww throne at GWW in his castle beneath the swamps. That is why we haven't seen him fo fifteen years. :dunce:

[David C. Hunter]

This entire post was amazing and well- written. I had thought that Jon Snow might lead an army of Starks and their direwolves once a blood sacrifice is made to the heart tree. Perhaps the blood of a prince or king will feed the roots of trees to free the Stark spirits, who will then be a scary force needing someone to lead; however, they may just exact a vengeance on the Boltons who are violating the laws of hospitality by taking up residence in WF with Lord Bran Stark hidden behind a laughing ww and a murder of ravens.

Bran remembers Lady Hornwood and her fingers. He promised Lady Donella Winterfell remembers, so its more for the north that the Starks will rise. They have vengeance for the nmummer's farce in front of the heart tree, for bringing in a fake Stark, for Ramsay abusing Jeyne Pool with Theon and dog. Why the dog - I think that is symbolic as well - making a Stark do nasty things with a dog - sort of next to a wolf - speaks to your comparison of Bolton hunting and wearing Stark skins.

This also can be linked to Roose's obsession with leeching, for he has the bad blood; not the good Stark blood he covets. Why do maesters need leeches? - just for healing purposes, or might they use the leeches on the lords they serve to get king's blood? - the way Mel used Edric Storm's blood to put a spell on Joffrey, and two others, I cannot remember now.

Just a few thoughts - not near as good as your brilliant analysis. Good job. The read was worth it. I learned quite a bit. :dunno:

The Roose Bolton leech catch is bloody brilliant, no pun intended. I didn't even catch that. It could be and would add credence to Tze's theory of why the Boltons originally started flaying Starks in the first place. Very nice find

Great post! :bowdown: Very well written.

I agree with/can see most of the things you've stated. I just have one tiny question. (I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, I didn't read the comments yet.)

I think Bloodraven IS of both Valyrian and First Men blood. His father was Aegon the Unworthy and his mother was a lady from House Blackwood. But seeing as how Bloodraven IS important in the whole ice/fire balance theory you've proposed, I don't think it upsets your original ideas at all =)

No you are correct, Blood Raven is of the First Men and Valyria, but in particular I think the difference between him and Bran is that Bran is an actual Stark.

I realized that despite how powerful Bloodraven is, he isn't infallible and Bran will surpass him a pure talent, because of his blood. Bloodraven tells Bran that he cannot influence that past, but it seems that Bran can and will influence the past(Not changing anything of course)

[evita mgfs]

:bowdown: Why Thank you David Simmons! It was you who inspired my thoughts, so take some credit for a magnificent post. :cool4:

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

No you are correct, Blood Raven is of the First Men and Valyria, but in particular I think the difference between him and Bran is that Bran is an actual Stark.

I realized that despite how powerful Bloodraven is, he isn't infallible and Bran will surpass him a pure talent, because of his blood. Bloodraven tells Bran that he cannot influence that past, but it seems that Bran can and will influence the past(Not changing anything of course)

That makes sense, I guess. I also believe that Bran is more powerful than Bloodraven (or will be, after a while) and while I'm sure it has something to with blood, I had another theory as well.

Didn't Bloodraven say that Greenseers are physically weaker than normal men to "balance out" their other powers? We know Bloodraven is (was?) an albino, so I suppose that could be counted as a physical weakness. Yet he could still walk, run, fight... Bran cannot do these things. Maybe because he's physically weaker than Bloodraven, his powers are stronger.

[David C. Hunter]

Im starting a new thread, part 2 to this that is basically about the Greyjoys relation to this song

[David C. Hunter]

That makes sense, I guess. I also believe that Bran is more powerful than Bloodraven (or will be, after a while) and while I'm sure it has something to with blood, I had another theory as well.

Didn't Bloodraven say that Greenseers are physically weaker than normal men to "balance out" their other powers? We know Bloodraven is (was?) an albino, so I suppose that could be counted as a physical weakness. Yet he could still walk, run, fight... Bran cannot do these things. Maybe because he's physically weaker than Bloodraven, his powers are stronger.

Could be, but for intents and purposes BloodRaven may have been an albino, but he was a great soldier and archer. He may have been weaker, but I doubt it was gratuitous I personally think all of Bran's powers come from the fact that he was in a coma for so long, not so much not being able to use his legs, but you could be on to something.

Also I didnt want it to come across that I think Bloodraven is wear or anything, he is nothing short of a God right now, but Bran will make him look like a chump by the end of next book, lol

[Keirut]

Brilliant ! While I was reading this, I almost hoped Game of Thrones didn't exist and that ASoIaF was just a regular fantasy series ahaahaha

[Summer is Ending]

The powers of the Children have always seemed different than the magic practiced in the rest of the world. It seems like their power is an inborn trait, especially when we hear about the color of a Child's eyes hinting at the powers of a warg or greenseer. How this power eventually found its way into the human society of the First Men is still a mystery, but I think blood sacrifice is a dead end and represents a misguided attempt by the First Men to capture the power of the Children for their own use.

This post is getting somewhat long, so I'll end it here and put the rest of my thoughts in another response.

I've been thinking about this lately and one idea that I had is that the cotf gifted some of their powers to the men that first parlayed with them on the Isle of Faces.

“The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.”

So in this idea not all First Men would have these abilities but only the men that were there on the Isle and their descendents with the true events being forgotten as the blood became diluted and the facts becoming distorted legends of heroes doing amazing things.

It could possibly explain why a family as old as the Boltons seem to have no history of warging but rather their imitation of what they saw their rivals suddenly blessed with.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Could be, but for intents and purposes BloodRaven may have been an albino, but he was a great soldier and archer. He may have been weaker, but I doubt it was gratuitous I personally think all of Bran's powers come from the fact that he was in a coma for so long, not so much not being able to use his legs, but you could be on to something.

Also I didnt want it to come across that I think Bloodraven is wear or anything, he is nothing short of a God right now, but Bran will make him look like a chump by the end of next book, lol

Perhaps I misused the word. When I said "weaker," I didn't mean it in a way that Bloodraven couldn't handle himself. It's just that, from what I understood, greenseers do seem to have weaker aspects. Like weak skin, weak legs... I can't remember the exact thing Bloodraven said, but it's been a while since I've read ADWD so I could be wrong =) My point is, since the whole point of those "weaknesses" is to "balance" their powers, seeing as how Bran is physically weaker than Bloodraven was (he has no ability to be able a great soldier, as you pointed out), maybe that means his weirwood wifi powers may be stronger than Bloodraven's.

Since Bran was convinced that Lord Eddard could hear him in the Godswood when he whispered, but Bloodraven said it was impossible.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into things xD

[evita mgfs]

Im starting a new thread, part 2 to this that is basically about the Greyjoys relation to this song

I have some ideas that may or may not apply regarding the Greyjoys and the Reeds and their associations with the water force.

I did a quick association of various godhoods relating, in part, to the Olympian gods. My theory follows, although it is not as developed as yours. And in place of Howland as the water god, relating to the Greek Poseidon, the Drowned god may fit the bill better.

I am just sharing - and I can't wait to read your new thread.

Beware: crackpot. :dunno:

Yes - I think the godhood is a force of many powers - each with a realm, or part of the world of ice and fire to maintain, Like the Olympians, they can change their form: Zeus changes to a bull, a shower of gold, a cuckoo bird, etc. - just like the Starks can warg.

An idea just sprung into my head, because Howland Reed seems to have some of the signs of Poseidon; the crannogmen hunt with tridents and nets, that which fishermen use to capture fish, all associated with Poseidon, one of three figurehead gods of the Olympians.

So if the old gods are like, loosely, not literally, based on the Olympians, there is the triarchy of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades, who, according to myth, drew straws to decide who ruled what.

Poseidon rules the seas, and then HADES, god of the Underworld, [Others] the dead and the riches under the Earth,

Maybe Howland hasn’t left the Neck because he is sitting in a weirwood throne of his own (or one under the waters in his magic castle, like Poseidon has his Palace under the sea), and he will not be leaving. An envoy will have to go to him. (He did something to save Ned).

Maybe he is now part of the godhood in the trees, but underwater. Didn’t he send his ONLY son to sacrifice himself on behalf of mankind?

Bran and Bloodraven are of nature, but they seem to have a preference for high sky flying and keeping their heads in the clouds.

Then there is Hades, the god whose name the Greeks did not speak, just like the force that is the Others. Their minions are the souls of the dead – the shades, as Homer called them. In order for these souls to speak, they had to drink the blood of a sacrifice.

What if there is a group of deities, not just one force, and these forces must come together to fight for territory, or for a violation that brings them to war because one of the gods, like maybe BR, couldn’t do it. He needed Bran at his side.

These gods, or powers, could have been part of the pact. Each deity has its own agents as well, like BR has the ravens and the CoF.

Martin can create his own godhood borrowing bits and pieces from myth. The Others may look like the Sidhe, but have characteristics of Hades, who did not like to give up his dead.

He guarded them jealously.

Maybe the pact had something to do with an exchange of power? Someone broke a godhood law, part of the pact, and now the order has been broken. The Others are sending their wights to reclaim their dead. Maybe BR spoke to the dead – asked for secrets of dragons and visited the past to change the future, but he screwed up, and now the Others are out to reclaim their blood price against the realms of men. BR needs Bran at his side since whatever he did weakened him even more.

Howland might represent a water force, or he may be in the godswood in another way. Maybe this could be why he sent his children instead of coming himself to WF for the autumn harvest feast, and why he has not been around for 14-15 years. Also, this could be why Jojen is depressed. When he sees the three-eyed crow, he thinks, "Gheese. Just like my father, and exactly what he told me I might find."

Wild speculation, but it sounds like it is heretic. :dunno:

[David C. Hunter]

I've been thinking about this lately and one idea that I had is that the cotf gifted some of their powers to the men that first parlayed with them on the Isle of Faces.

“The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.”

So in this idea not all First Men would have these abilities but only the men that were there on the Isle and their descendents with the true events being forgotten as the blood became diluted and the facts becoming distorted legends of heroes doing amazing things.

It could possibly explain why a family as old as the Boltons seem to have no history of warging but rather their imitation of what they saw their rivals suddenly blessed with.

That's a very good catch...very good. I wonder who was present there? Starks, Blackwoods, Reeds? Who else?

Perhaps I misused the word. When I said "weaker," I didn't mean it in a way that Bloodraven couldn't handle himself. It's just that, from what I understood, greenseers do seem to have weaker aspects. Like weak skin, weak legs... I can't remember the exact thing Bloodraven said, but it's been a while since I've read ADWD so I could be wrong =) My point is, since the whole point of those "weaknesses" is to "balance" their powers, seeing as how Bran is physically weaker than Bloodraven was (he has no ability to be able a great soldier, as you pointed out), maybe that means his weirwood wifi powers may be stronger than Bloodraven's.

Since Bran was convinced that Lord Eddard could hear him in the Godswood when he whispered, but Bloodraven said it was impossible.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into things xD

I lol'd at the weirwood wifi power comment, haha.

You may have a point though. Jojen is also a greenseer and he is having more trouble than anyone in their trek to the Cave from Winterfell. Does it say in the text anywhere about Jojen's strength? Is he weak?