Ice and Fire Assessment...Theory (Long Read)

[David C. Hunter]

I have some ideas that may or may not apply regarding the Greyjoys and the Reeds and their associations with the water force.

I did a quick association of various godhoods relating, in part, to the Olympian gods. My theory follows, although it is not as developed as yours. And in place of Howland as the water god, relating to the Greek Poseidon, the Drowned god may fit the bill better.

I am just sharing - and I can't wait to read your new thread.

Beware: crackpot. :dunno:

Yes - I think the godhood is a force of many powers - each with a realm, or part of the world of ice and fire to maintain, Like the Olympians, they can change their form: Zeus changes to a bull, a shower of gold, a cuckoo bird, etc. - just like the Starks can warg.

An idea just sprung into my head, because Howland Reed seems to have some of the signs of Poseidon; the crannogmen hunt with tridents and nets, that which fishermen use to capture fish, all associated with Poseidon, one of three figurehead gods of the Olympians.

So if the old gods are like, loosely, not literally, based on the Olympians, there is the triarchy of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades, who, according to myth, drew straws to decide who ruled what.

Poseidon rules the seas, and then HADES, god of the Underworld, [Others] the dead and the riches under the Earth,

Maybe Howland hasn’t left the Neck because he is sitting in a weirwood throne of his own (or one under the waters in his magic castle, like Poseidon has his Palace under the sea), and he will not be leaving. An envoy will have to go to him. (He did something to save Ned).

Maybe he is now part of the godhood in the trees, but underwater. Didn’t he send his ONLY son to sacrifice himself on behalf of mankind?

Bran and Bloodraven are of nature, but they seem to have a preference for high sky flying and keeping their heads in the clouds.

Then there is Hades, the god whose name the Greeks did not speak, just like the force that is the Others. Their minions are the souls of the dead – the shades, as Homer called them. In order for these souls to speak, they had to drink the blood of a sacrifice.

What if there is a group of deities, not just one force, and these forces must come together to fight for territory, or for a violation that brings them to war because one of the gods, like maybe BR, couldn’t do it. He needed Bran at his side.

These gods, or powers, could have been part of the pact. Each deity has its own agents as well, like BR has the ravens and the CoF.

Martin can create his own godhood borrowing bits and pieces from myth. The Others may look like the Sidhe, but have characteristics of Hades, who did not like to give up his dead.

He guarded them jealously.

Maybe the pact had something to do with an exchange of power? Someone broke a godhood law, part of the pact, and now the order has been broken. The Others are sending their wights to reclaim their dead. Maybe BR spoke to the dead – asked for secrets of dragons and visited the past to change the future, but he screwed up, and now the Others are out to reclaim their blood price against the realms of men. BR needs Bran at his side since whatever he did weakened him even more.

Howland might represent a water force, or he may be in the godswood in another way. Maybe this could be why he sent his children instead of coming himself to WF for the autumn harvest feast, and why he has not been around for 14-15 years. Also, this could be why Jojen is depressed. When he sees the three-eyed crow, he thinks, "Gheese. Just like my father, and exactly what he told me I might find."

Wild speculation, but it sounds like it is heretic. :dunno:

This is a good theory! You should make a new thread with it. Its very intriguing, flesh it out and repost it. I would love to delve deeper into this. :cool4:

[David C. Hunter]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75928-ice-and-fire-assessmenttheory-2-greyjoys-long-read/

Here is part 2 - Ironborn focus

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

I lol'd at the weirwood wifi power comment, haha.

You may have a point though. Jojen is also a greenseer and he is having more trouble than anyone in their trek to the Cave from Winterfell. Does it say in the text anywhere about Jojen's strength? Is he weak?

Well, that's what it is xD

I'm not sure if we can put Jojen and Bran & Bloodraven into the same category. Wasn't it said that not everyone who has greendreams is necessarily a greenseer? I mean, after all, almost all of the POV characters have had prophetic dreams.

Bran has remarked that he looked "smaller than me now, and weaker too, and I'm the cripple." But I don't know if he has any obvious weaknesses like Bran's legs and Bloodraven's skin. I don't think so?

[total1402]

OP

I’am sorry but, that doesn’t make any sense. A plot twist that extreme at the tail end of the series would be a terrible thing to do. We’ve been told consistently about the Long Night and the Others being a threat. There has at best been incidental evidence that the Others are connected to the Starks. They have the same abilities as the Children of the Forest, not the Others; pretty obvious. If these abilities seem dark then it only shows that the Children themselves have what we consider evil abilities in fantasy. The same is true of Mel and the Fire worshippers; outwardly they fulfil the troupe of rel fanatics and evil sorcerers. But, a crucial distinction is that the forces of fire, Rhollor worship, dragons and the Children, wargs, giants and direwolves. These things can co-exist with humanity to some extent. They were ingratiated and intermingled without much issue. Even if the Andals culture upset it, that did not mean they couldn’t co-exist since Valyria was a more advanced civilization but flourished with magic. The Others, have consistently been shown to be the anti-thesis of this. They are the opposite of the maesters, they are magical creatures that want to destroy all humans and all magic not aligned to their own. Whatever their motives this makes them a threat wholly different from fire and nature. Coldhands is the only apparent exception and he is fighting the Others; “they already killed him”. Even if the Children and by extension the Starks are using a form of ice magic; it is clearly not automatically antagonistic as the Others.

People really get hung up on Martin breaking fantasy clichés so that the Others must be good and anything else wouldn't be in keeping with the series. This isn’t like Melisandre, Jamie or the Hound, characters that pretty clearly had more going on and didn’t remotely surprise me to learn they had better points. You can’t just turn around after five books and say that what you’ve set up as the genocidal snow elves repeatedly; are actually a force that can effortlessly be controlled by Jon and therefore no threat at all to anyone. That just sounds silly. I could maybe picture Dany sacrificing her dragons to end the dawn and maybe herself. But not just so Jon can have the forces of ice and fire fall on their swords at the end of the series to “bring balance to the world” as you put it. That would be an unbelievably terrible ending.

If he wanted the Others to not be classic fantasy enemies then he could have given them a POV, explained their views and position. Its not difficult to do this. I find it amazing that people think it is. IMO the books aren't even that grey. He does not treat the factions equally; ever.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

< snip >

I'm not the OP but I just wanted to point out something. While I agree that the Others are probably antagonists and evil (looking from the perspective of men, seeing as Martin stated that "they don't like us very much") didn't GRRM also say something like he didn't "want to make a good vs bad" deal and the Others were more than they seemed? I'm sure I've read this in an interview somewhere.

[total1402]

I'm not the OP but I just wanted to point out something. While I agree that the Others are probably antagonists and evil (looking from the perspective of men, seeing as Martin stated that "they don't like us very much") didn't GRRM also say something like he didn't "want to make a good vs bad" deal and the Others were more than they seemed? I'm sure I've read this in an interview somewhere.

Evil with a reason is still evil. Just because he doesn't make it Sauron, "I'am evil coz I'am evil and look it"; doesn't mean it isn't like that. You have one faction which wants to kill all humans. Any moral consideration goes out the window at this point. Whatever reason they have can never justify that and its most likely a selfish one. He probably just means that the "goodies" will end up doing extremely reprehnsible things in order to fight this enemy. Like feeding the army by storming cities and stealing their food. Dany threatening to destroy any castle that doesn't hand its soldiers over to her army. Using brutal justice to prevent desertion and food stealing. etc etc. Thats how I see it and most of the series. Good guys who use evil tactics and Bad guys with reasons.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Evil with a reason is still evil. Just because he doesn't make it Sauron, "I'am evil coz I'am evil and look it"; doesn't mean it isn't like that. You have one faction which wants to kill all humans. Any moral consideration goes out the window at this point. Whatever reason they have can never justify that and its most likely a selfish one. He probably just means that the "goodies" will end up doing extremely reprehnsible things in order to fight this enemy. Like feeding the army by storming cities and stealing their food. Dany threatening to destroy any castle that doesn't hand its soldiers over to her army. Using brutal justice to prevent desertion and food stealing. etc etc. Thats how I see it and most of the series. Good guys who use evil tactics and Bad guys with reasons.

That's a good guess, and I'm not contradicting that. I'd just like to leave every door of possibility open in my mind because as you've also said, GRRM isn't always direct with his character's (even more so with magical creatures') motives. I'm not sure how that entire plot twist/Gods showdown will work out, but I am sort of expecting to see every side and every creature as "grey".

[Adam Carmack]

This just blew my mind and melted my face. I've often tinkered with thinking that the Old Gods were actually evil and R'hollar being good. This makes more sense than what I was thinking and is absolutely brilliant. I'm going to re-read the series over Thanksgiving or Christmas with this in mind.

[armidil0]

My only problem with LH selling his soul to the Others to live, is that the NK did the same thing, and the Starks destroyed all records of him. So I don't think the LH made a deal with the Others. Otherwise the others would be not as scary as they are. Why would they attack the North, why did the Starks kill the Night King? I just don't see it. I the CotF helped the LH because it was the lesser evil of the two, I think.

[Titus Andronicus]

I think if anyone is going to "lead" the White Walkers, it's going to be Bran. We know that in TWoW, GRRM is going to take us to the Lands of Always Winter finally, and most likely through Bran. I think Bran and Dany will clash, with Jon (in whatever form he is in) will be the "balance".

[Fwaatcha]

nevermind.

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

i like this theory..

1 question though..if starks represent ice and have peace with ww,the why do they get valyrian steel,blades whatever weapons which basically represent the fire side??? how??

[David C. Hunter]

i like this theory..

1 question though..if starks represent ice and have peace with ww,the why do they get valyrian steel,blades whatever weapons which basically represent the fire side??? how??

There maybe some symbolism in the fact that House Stark had a Valryian Sword, I do not know. But I do know that, the Valyrian Sword is called 'Ice'

[lucaszc]

Congratulations, very well-thought theory!

After I read of magic through the family lineage, it came to me that Ned and Cat's offspring isn't of full First Men lineage, and they are all capable of doing magic...

But, now thinking about the Cidadel and the conspiracy for exinguishing magic: wouldn't the southern ambitions that Maester Walys (formerly Flowers, a bastard son of a Hightower girl and an archmaester) promoted on Lord Rickard Stark be part of that conspiracy? (After all, Baratheons and Tullys weren't ancient First Men houses...)

[lucaszc]

And also, would the Horn of Winter have to do with this Fire X Ice, Light X Darkness and Dragon X Ice Dragon thing?

[Arkantos]

There maybe some symbolism in the fact that House Stark had a Valryian Sword, I do not know. But I do know that, the Valyrian Sword is called 'Ice'

I think the original Ice may have been one of the swords the Others use or something, but a later Stark lost or decided to replace it with supposedly superior valyrian steel, keeping the name.

[House Mauldania]

Is topic 4 out yet? These are really good write ups.

Could this have something to do with the Others. Maybe they will only treat with the Starks? Could it have something to do with the blood of the First Men. So when the Others break down that wall, will they stop in and chat with the current lord of Winterfell/Stark? (I know the Boltons are now but...)

I wrote a topic about something similar once too.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65577-there-must-always-be-a-stark-in-winterfell/#entry3161686

[Frey family reunion]

Surely Martin was influenced by this poem by Robert Frost when he came up with the idea for this series:

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I've tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

The song of ice and fire may be two apocalyptical forces clashing, fire represented by the Valyrians and fire, as passionate destruction, while ice represented by the Others as a creeping passionless death feuled by hatred of the living. I disagree that Bran wields ice magic however. I think he wields a third force: "the green" representing the force of nature and living things. Blood magic may have it's source in this "life force" as well. COF commanded this force and along with the First Men fought against the ice magic of the Others. The danger of team fire, rests with Dany's vision of Aerys vowing that if the opposing force wins, all they will win is ash. If the dragons and fire magic is unleashed against the Others to such an extent that it results in a fiery apocalypse, then who really wins in that scenario. I think the key will be to defeat the Others without unleasing an equally devestating force.

[David C. Hunter]

That's a good guess, and I'm not contradicting that. I'd just like to leave every door of possibility open in my mind because as you've also said, GRRM isn't always direct with his character's (even more so with magical creatures') motives. I'm not sure how that entire plot twist/Gods showdown will work out, but I am sort of expecting to see every side and every creature as "grey".

Agreed. But my opinion on the Whote Walkers is based on what GRRM has said.

GRRM hates the cliche evil dark lords of the north in fantasy

GRRM makes fun of writers who do this cliche

GRRM has fun playing with our instincts of wanting light and hating dark - e.g. The White cloaks are corrupt and the Black Brother's of the Night's Watch are admirable - its a twist in the cliche fantasy norms

So why would GRRM create evil cliche dark lords in the north? It answers itself. Its a red herring. He is setting us up.

[David C. Hunter]

Surely Martin was influenced by this poem by Robert Frost when he came up with the idea for this series:

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I've tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

The song of ice and fire may be two apocalyptical forces clashing, fire represented by the Valyrians and fire, as passionate destruction, while ice represented by the Others as a creeping passionless death feuled by hatred of the living. I disagree that Bran wields ice magic however. I think he wields a third force: "the green" representing the force of nature and living things. Blood magic may have it's source in this "life force" as well. COF commanded this force and along with the First Men fought against the ice magic of the Others. The danger of team fire, rests with Dany's vision of Aerys vowing that if the opposing force wins, all they will win is ash. If the dragons and fire magic is unleashed against the Others to such an extent that it results in a fiery apocalypse, then who really wins in that scenario. I think the key will be to defeat the Others without unleasing an equally devestating force.

I like this idea, for I have no idea how the story will end.

I only believe that both sides are equally destructive and the only way to survive the end of times is to create a balance between them, whatever that means