An answer to "Where do whores go?" - Tysha, Littlefinger, Tyrion

[Santa]

Make up your mind people, first

Lyanna rambles point after point that the lannisters are gone and the tyrells too, thus sansa can marry and nobody opposes littlefinger anyway.

He goes to the septon: hey, how are you. Annul this marriage for me please, have a septa check her out, and this handmaiden here swears they had no sex. ( no tysha needed)

Second, you come here

And ramble even more senseless about sansa beeing in danger.... Etc

If she is in danger she has to stay hidden and can marrry anyway (lol) really useless to have tysha arround then, isnt it?

And i agree with lyanna. Very soon, she can reveal hersel as heir to the north and there are no people left that would oppose her

[Dr. Pepper]

I am still not sure about that, I would chek it tonight, i also don't have my copy of the book with me. Still I can't believe Petyr slept with Lysa in KG. As I recall the first time the had sex was some kind of accident, he thinking that she is Catlyn, may be I am wrong.... I don't believe that he slept with her willingly :D :D before they married (ohhh God marriage from hell)

But it would be cool If he kills his own son. How would he react, what he will think. Very interesting indeed.

Here's the quote in question:

“I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter.”

“I dream of that as well, sweetling. Yet there is much to be gained from a great public wedding, with all the Vale—”

“No.” She stamped a foot. “I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they’ll hear me in the Eyrie!”

Martin, George R.R. (2011-03-22). George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones 4-Book Bundle: A Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows (Song of Ice & Fire) (Kindle Locations 53944-53949). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

[Lyanna Stark]

Make up your mind people, first

Lyanna rambles point after point that the lannisters are gone and the tyrells too, thus sansa can marry and nobody opposes littlefinger anyway.

He goes to the septon: hey, how are you. Annul this marriage for me please, have a septa check her out, and this handmaiden here swears they had no sex. ( no tysha needed)

Second, you come here

And ramble even more senseless about sansa beeing in danger.... Etc

If she is in danger she has to stay hidden and can marrry anyway (lol) really useless to have tysha arround then, isnt it?

And i agree with lyanna. Very soon, she can reveal hersel as heir to the north and there are no people left that would oppose her

Sansa is not the heir to the north. Sansa is in danger. A Septa cannot reliably check a maidenhead (see Margaery and Cersei's comments on horse riding). The Lannisters are gone from Kings Landing, the Tyrells are not, which I clearly stated.

You have your basic facts wrong.

[Santa]

So if she is in danger, how can she marry???

What use would tysha be?

There is no witness for any consumation and tyrion is a trialed kingslayer and gone.... Do you really think the septon refuses an annulment if she shows up and asks for it..... Yeah sure.

[sayelle]

Agreed, he may be Petyr's son. And he doesn't give a shit about him... Ohhh Petyr is the charecter I hate to love! :)

[Dr. Pepper]

Make up your mind people, first

For crying out loud.

Lyanna rambles point after point that the lannisters are gone and the tyrells too, thus sansa can marry and nobody opposes littlefinger anyway.

He goes to the septon: hey, how are you. Annul this marriage for me please, have a septa check her out, and this handmaiden here swears they had no sex. ( no tysha needed)

Littlefinger cannot request the marriage annulment for a third party. One of the people in question have to be present. In Lyanna Stark's theory, in order for Sansa's marriage to be annulled, Tysha (or Tyrion if he had a death wish) must go to the High Septon and reveal her legally consummated marriage to Tyrion. Should the High Septon accept her claim, this would make Sansa's marriage to Tyrion effectively null and void.

Second, you come here

And ramble even more senseless about sansa beeing in danger.... Etc

If she is in danger she has to stay hidden and can marrry anyway (lol) really useless to have tysha arround then, isnt it?

You're pretty much the only one rambling nonsense. No one (but you) has brought up the idea of Sansa leaving the Vale to visit the Sept of Baelor in order to have her maidenhead checked (which has already been proven in-story as being an ineffective means of proving virginity) and requesting an annullment. Seriously. Read the theory!

And i agree with lyanna. Very soon, she can reveal hersel as heir to the north and there are no people left that would oppose her

Again, nonsense. Lyanna Stark said nothing about Sansa being heir to the north (which she isn't anyway). You're making stuff up.

So if she is in danger, how can she marry???

What use would tysha be?

There is no witness for any consumation and tyrion is a trialed kingslayer and gone.... Do you really think the septon refuses an annulment if she shows up and asks for it..... Yeah sure.

Again read the theory. You're missing the very basics.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'd suggest not engaging Santa in discussion since there is no point arguing with trolls. The ignore button is your friend, people. :)

[Natalie_S]

Tyrion's marriage with Tysha was annulled, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

We don't know much about the Faith, but if it's based on the Catholic Church (which sounds legit since there are many parallels, like the lack of consummation being a reason for annullment) there are some reason why the marriage can be considered null:

1) The couple was in clandestinity, and therefore not adherring to canon law

2) there were no witnesses

3) the Septon was drunk and therefore not able to give a valid blessing on the marriage

The HS was probably very understanding, and, if we base on Catholic Church, if the annullment is validated by a pope, the next pope can't come back on it and say it wasn't right. If it's annulled, it's annulled, forever.

Besides, I don't think Tywin would have let Tysha get out alive if there was the slightest doubt that she could have come back with a rightful claim to Tyrion's hand.

I don't think GRRM left much doubt about it.

I can see why some posters would want his marriage to Sansa to be invalid, but it can't be for Tysha.

They can still get an annullment for lack of consummation, anyway.

[pig]

Edit: Nevermind

[Lyanna Stark]

Tyrion's marriage with Tysha was annulled, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

We don't know much about the Faith, but if it's based on the Catholic Church (which sounds legit since there are many parallels, like the lack of consummation being a reason for annullment) there are some reason why the marriage can be considered null:

1) The couple was in clandestinity, and therefore not adherring to canon law

2) there were no witnesses

3) the Septon was drunk and therefore not able to give a valid blessing on the marriage

The only way a marriage can be anulled is by the High Septon. Nobody who was there, i.e. Tywin, is still alive, hence if a Tysha comes along and presents herself to the High Septon, she would be in the right. Whatever went down originally doesn't really matter, since nobody who was around then can complain. Tywin would be the main one who would raise objection, and Tywin is dead.

Not sure what you mean with clandestiny in this case either, nor that the Septon was drunk. Those things are not listed anywhere as being prohibitive to a Westeros wedding.

The lack of witnesses is probably in LF's fake Tysha's favour, since LF can then "dig up" a witness that didn't exist in the beginning.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tyrion's marriage with Tysha was annulled, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

We don't know much about the Faith, but if it's based on the Catholic Church (which sounds legit since there are many parallels, like the lack of consummation being a reason for annullment) there are some reason why the marriage can be considered null:

1) The couple was in clandestinity, and therefore not adherring to canon law

2) there were no witnesses

3) the Septon was drunk and therefore not able to give a valid blessing on the marriage

The HS was probably very understanding, and, if we base on Catholic Church, if the annullment is validated by a pope, the next pope can't come back on it and say it wasn't right. If it's annulled, it's annulled, forever.

Besides, I don't think Tywin would have let Tysha get out alive if there was the slightest doubt that she could have come back with a rightful claim to Tyrion's hand.

I don't think GRRM left much doubt about it.

I can see why some posters would want his marriage to Sansa to be invalid, but it can't be for Tysha.

They can still get an annullment for lack of consummation, anyway.

There is a lot of doubt. Point one: Tyrion considers himself lawfully married to Tysha. Point two: Not once, never, is it mentioned that Tywin got the High Septon or the Council of Faith involved. Point three: An involved person has to show up personally to gt the marriage annulled. Tyrion doesn''t recall this and I doubt tysha did it. Point four: The timeline doesn't permit involving the HS in Kings Landing in a marriage at Casterly Rock.

[pat]

The only way a marriage can be anulled is by the High Septon.

A council of the faith can as well. whatever that is

[Bright Blue Eyes]

A council of the faith can as well. whatever that is

A council of the faith is the council to choose a new High Septon, read: all the upper Septons in Kings Landing.

[butterbumps!]

snippity snip snip

I like this theory. For one thing, I think that it would be an interesting chekov's gun aspect about having that story revealed in the first place-- that it is highly significant not only that Tyrion has a history with "prostitutes," but that there is something bigger at play in the fact that they were married. (There is other character-development significance in this story without "Tysha" coming back, but the fact that they were married feels like a little "chestnut" waiting to crack).

The other thing I like about this is that it would expose Littlefinger's MO to the reader much more plainly. I think LF is good, but I don't think he's that good. I think he is precisely the sort of schemer who uses the same ploy more than once (first with Jeyne, perhaps with Tysha). On a personal note, I hope at some point everyone he's pawned come together for a celebratory "tar and feathering" of the guy.

But just so that I'm clear on this, the practical aspect that you're working from is this:

-- It would be a great danger to Sansa to ride into Baelor's sept and annul her marriage to Tyrion. Even if the Lannisters no longer have power, there is still incredible risk in doing this, not least of which is because she would be charged as a kingslayer by the Septon.

--Since a marriage must be annulled by one of the people in the marriage itself, this casts doubt on the legality of the annulment Tywin sought, and means that one of the 3 people in question must appear before the Septon to make this official. Tysha- real or fake- seems like the most plausible person to step forward and do this. Besides, LF seems to suggest that he has an ace up his sleeve that might suggest he's produced some way to annul Sansa's marriage easily.

--Safely in the Eyrie, Alayne can reveal herself as Sansa. As Sansa, she weds Harry the Heir, joining the power of Winterfell and the Vale, to what end for LF, only the gods know. But between the distance from KL and the fact that this reveal and marriage will bring Sansa militaristic strength, this will protect her, so that if she becomes known as Sansa, she will have the forces and fealty to oppose those who might try to bring her down. ETA: I don't mean to imply that she's the heir to Winterfell, but just the fact that she is Sansa might bring at least the Riverlands to her cause, if not the Northmen (who are otherwise engaged at the moment).

[Natalie_S]

The only way a marriage can be anulled is by the High Septon. Nobody who was there, i.e. Tywin, is still alive, hence if a Tysha comes along and presents herself to the High Septon, she would be in the right. Whatever went down originally doesn't really matter, since nobody who was around then can complain. Tywin would be the main one who would raise objection, and Tywin is dead.

Not sure what you mean with clandestiny in this case either, nor that the Septon was drunk. Those things are not listed anywhere as being prohibitive to a Westeros wedding.

The lack of witnesses is probably in LF's fake Tysha's favour, since LF can then "dig up" a witness that didn't exist in the beginning.

Oh come on, people knew about it! Cersei and Jaime knew, the guards that raped Tysha knew, the "septons" that Tyrion mentions knew and even LF knew.

I presume that half Lannisport knew about the marriage.

And I suppose that the Faith, as the Church, would keep a register of weddings and death, especially when there is some burocratic turmoil, as it is with an annullment.

PS: I'm not saying LF can' try, but it does sound very far-fetched and not very realistic to me.

Also because GRRM already provided a plot-escape plan, which is the lack of consummation.

Why give 2 possible ways to have a marriage annulled? In a novel, it doesn't make any sense.

There is a lot of doubt. Point one: Tyrion considers himself lawfully married to Tysha. Point two: Not once, never, is it mentioned that Tywin got the High Septon or the Council of Faith involved. Point three: An involved person has to show up personally to gt the marriage annulled. Tyrion doesn''t recall this and I doubt tysha did it. Point four: The timeline doesn't permit involving the HS in Kings Landing in a marriage at Casterly Rock.

Tyrion says the "the septons" sais it was annullment. It seems to be some sort of Council of official thing.

Also a legal tutor, such as a parent, can take care of the annullment, if the person involved is underage.

I don't see how the timeline as anything to do with it, since Tyrion doesn't provide any. He doesn't say after which span of time the septons declared it annulled.

[Dr. Pepper]

Tyrion's marriage with Tysha was annulled, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

With respect, I think there is a lot of doubt about the alleged annulment of Tyrion's marriage to Tysha. The books state that at least one person in the marriage must request the annulment. We know that Tyrion did not go to request it so we are left with trusting that Tywin had a way to ensure that Tysha went to request it. I think considering Tywin's very public distaste for whores and common women seeking advancement via marriage or becoming a mistress makes it fairly likely that he would have been invested in keeping this silent and maintaining silence would prove difficult if a common girl showed up requesting to have her marriage to her Lannister husband annuled. It appears that it was kept reasonably silent as it's not a story that is well-known in Westeros. We do know that the marriage was consummated and that consummated marriages need a pretty specific and significant reason for being annulled (i.e. for joining the faith).

The HS was probably very understanding, and, if we base on Catholic Church, if the annullment is validated by a pope, the next pope can't come back on it and say it wasn't right. If it's annulled, it's annulled, forever.

I agree that the High Septon at the time might have been accomodating, but that's only if Tywin was interested in risking having the story made public knowledge by ensuring Tysha was presented at the Sept of Baelor to request the annulment.

Besides, I don't think Tywin would have let Tysha get out alive if there was the slightest doubt that she could have come back with a rightful claim to Tyrion's hand.

I don't think GRRM left much doubt about it.

I agree with this. I support the notion that the original Tysha is likely dead and so it will be a fake Tysha that comes forward. If LF can pass off one imposter, why not another?

I can see why some posters would want his marriage to Sansa to be invalid, but it can't be for Tysha.

They can still get an annullment for lack of consummation, anyway.

Yes, they can still get an annulment for lack of consummation but that would require Sansa placing herself in immediate danger by revealing herself (she's a waited traitor and possible kingslayer) publicly to request the annulment. This theory explains why LF appears to be entirely unconcerned about Sansa soon being free to wed again. It's another route as "Tysha" revelations would make Sansa's marriage null and void.

[pat]

There is a lot of doubt. Point one: Tyrion considers himself lawfully married to Tysha. Point two: Not once, never, is it mentioned that Tywin got the High Septon or the Council of Faith involved. Point three: An involved person has to show up personally to gt the marriage annulled. Tyrion doesn''t recall this and I doubt tysha did it. Point four: The timeline doesn't permit involving the HS in Kings Landing in a marriage at Casterly Rock.

Their is no timeline for the High Septons location when Tyrion was a teen. cannot be used as evidence. Lack of specifics on the anullment do not imply it was made up by Tywin. Their is also nothing in the books saying that a person who was married would have to present themselves anywhere or to anyone for an annullment.

[Dr. Pepper]

Their is also nothing in the books saying that a person who was married would have to present themselves anywhere or to anyone for an annullment.

SSM

Tigers14: btw, can a marriage be annulled without both parties present? and without sansa revealing who she really is?

GeoRR: no one needs to be present to annul a marriage

Tigers14: how?

GeoRR: but Sansa would need to request it

Tigers14: as sansa?

GeoRR: Well, why would a High Septon consider a request from anyone but the parties involved?

[Natalie_S]

Tywin is a part involved, because Tyrion was underage!

I think that GRRM's answers clearly refers to the possibility of Sansa requesting the annullment as Alayne, which, of course, can't be considered by a HS.

He also says that "no one needs to be present to annull a marriage".

Bringing this answer as a possible hint of a non-validity of the marriage between Tyrion and Tysha is honestly VERY far-fetched, IMHO.

[Dr. Pepper]

Tywin is a part involved, because Tyrion was underage!

I think that GRRM's answers clearly refers to the possibility of Sansa requesting the annullment as Alayne, which, of course, can't be considered by a HS.

He also says that "no one needs to be present to annull a marriage".

Bringing this answer as a possible hint of a non-validity of the marriage between Tyrion and Tysha is honestly VERY far-fetched, IMHO.

I'm not sure what you mean. We aren't questioning the validity of the marriage between Tyrion and Tysha. In fact, we are agreeing that the marriage was valid and quite possibly remains valid which would null and void Sansa's marriage to Tyrion.

No one needs to be present for a marriage to be officially annulled. But one must be present to request the annulment. I'm reading GRRM's comments to imply that one cannot simply send a letter off to the Septon to request the annulment and claim a non-consummation clause without adequate proof.