Again With the Small Questions

[rmholt]

I have to look it up but it was my impression that Jaime was found with the dead king in his arms. After that why would he have to go after the pyromancers?

Now, my main point is that his motives for killing Aerys were not as pure as he tells himself and the act wasnt as fine as he told himself. (Granted it might have been his finest act SO FAR)

[rmholt]

Is it ever stated Jaime was at Harrenhall?

Yes, he went there and was sworn in as KG by Aerys himself IIRC and then sent away to KL ostensibly to guard the family. He found it a very depressing journey. He wasnt allowed to compete.

[Jolene Brown]

I have to look it up but it was my impression that Jaime was found with the dead king in his arms. After that why would he have to go after the pyromancers?

It's Jaime 37 in ASOS. Presumably he was concerned they would set off the wildfire themselves for some reason, either in vengeance for Aerys, or just out of the pure love of fire.

[Jolene Brown]

Pretty sure he was sent to KL specifically (it was said) to guard the family before Aerys returned from Harrenhal. No reason I would expect his duty to change, tho it was a false pretense, it was handy as apparently they needed guarding. Jaime would be in charge of whatever guards were there.

Good god, that happened a year earlier! That was the tourney when Rhaegar first met Lyanna. You're talking about something before the war even started. That was to guard Viserys!

Trust me, if it's about Jaime, I know it by heart.

[rmholt]

Good god, that happened a year earlier! That was the tourney when Rhaegar first met Lyanna. You're talking about something before the war even started. That was to guard Viserys!

Trust me, if it's about Jaime, I know it by heart.

OK that sounds familiar. Nevertheless he was still held by Aerys. I presume you think this is because he didnt trust Tywin. Turned out he couldnt trust Jaime either.

[WhiteWolf26]

Yes, he went there and was sworn in as KG by Aerys himself IIRC and then sent away to KL ostensibly to guard the family. He found it a very depressing journey. He wasnt allowed to compete.

Ah right. Good call. I think its probably safe to assume his orders may have been changed over that year time period though right? Especially with all the events that had taken place during the war.

I know the wiki is not canon but it lists the order of events as Jaime killing Rossart, going to the Iron Throne and killing Aerys, then hunting down and killing the other pyromancers over the next few days.

[Jolene Brown]

OK that sounds familiar. Nevertheless he was still held by Aerys. I presume you think this is because he didnt trust Tywin. Turned out he couldnt trust Jaime either.

I think this was George's whole point. The irony of it. If you look at Jaime's memory he says that Rhaegar specifically told him Jaime couldn't go fight at the Trident because Aerys wanted to keep him close because he was more afraid of Tywin than Robert. It didn't work out so well. If Jaime hadn't been around for weeks watching every step of the plan to blow up the city, he might not have been in the emotional state to feel like killing Aerys was the one way to stop it. He knew how serious Aerys and the pyromancers were and how intense they were about the plan. Aerys created his own doom, like in Greek tragedy.

[Belandra Waters]

The Kingsguard is not an independent organization that serves whoever sits the throne. They were established by a particular dynasty for the purpose of serving that dynasty. Robert simply retained the idea of having Kingsguard and made the new members personally swear a vow to him, as the first Kingsguard did to Aegon.

Those Kingsguard had personally sworn an oath to Robert, whereas the three Kingsguard at the ToJ had not.

I was wanting to multi-quote both you and corbon on this but that function doesn't seem to be working for me today.

I guess the confusion I have is in understanding the role of the Kingsguard. In fact, they DO seem to be an independent organization that can choose whether or not to serve a change of monarchy. Although, I'm sure, any refusal to swear loyalty to the new king would probably result in a lopping off of a head or a trip to the Wall, particularly when you have served the previous king who has been unseated. I thought, though, that Robert's taking of the throne was not only because of "right of conquest" but also because of his Targaryen blood relatives making his claim legitimate.

;

Even though the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy, fulfilling their vows to guard the heir to the throne, what was their endgame? I hate dealing with hypotheticals concerning these books; the story as we know it already raises enough questions. But, having said that, what if the battle between Ned et al had gone the other way, and the three guards had prevailed but Robert was still on the throne? What would they have done then? Shipped Jon off to be raised elsewhere until his time came to come home and regain the throne? Would that not be treasonous and what would be their fates?

I thought that a new king inherited the old king's Kingsguard and that the swearing of an oath of loyalty to the new king was really more of a formality than anything else but, if your choice is to either swear it or face one of the other two options mentioned above, there probably isn't much choice. However, an oath said under duress or coercion, doesn't seem to be much of an oath.

I do find it curious that Selmy and Jaime (can't remember if there were two others) swore the oath to Robert, while it seems unlikely that the three at the ToJ were going to. Does that hint at a split of loyalties amongst the Brothers?

What happened at the Tower of Joy, particularly concerning the Kingsguard is fascinating to me. I wish we could read the final entries in the White Book regarding these three courageous men.

Do I understand it correctly then, that even assuming R+L=J is true (which I do), once Robert has taken the throne, Jon's true claim to it is no more, no matter how deeply those loyal to his father might wish it to be different?

@ Dragonfish and corbon....thanks for your patience and help with this. I always look forward to reading your posts and value your insights!

[koroleaa]

I've just started reading the first book and I'm not familiar with some of the phrases Martin uses, such as "in their cups." For example in the prologue it says "it is hard to take order from a man you laughed at in your cups." He uses the phrase again later on in the book and it doesn't make sense to me..I'm hoping someone here knows what I'm talking about, even though it sounds kinda weird :bang: haha

[Jolene Brown]

I've just started reading the first book and I'm not familiar with some of the phrases Martin uses, such as "in their cups." For example in the prologue it says "it is hard to take order from a man you laughed at in your cups." He uses the phrase again later on in the book and it doesn't make sense to me..I'm hoping someone here knows what I'm talking about, even though it sounds kinda weird :bang: haha

It means someone is drunk.

[koroleaa]

Ahh that makes sense!! I still have to get used to his writing style, thanks

[Dragonfish]

I guess the confusion I have is in understanding the role of the Kingsguard. In fact, they DO seem to be an independent organization that can choose whether or not to serve a change of monarchy.

What makes you think this? They were established by the Targaryens, for the purpose of serving the Targaryens. They're not like the Night's Watch or the maesters.

I thought, though, that Robert's taking of the throne was not only because of "right of conquest" but also because of his Targaryen blood relatives making his claim legitimate.

That was just their way of paying lip service to the notions of claims and inheritance. Robert actually won his throne, and kept it, through conquest.

Even though the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy, fulfilling their vows to guard the heir to the throne, what was their endgame? I hate dealing with hypotheticals concerning these books; the story as we know it already raises enough questions. But, having said that, what if the battle between Ned et al had gone the other way, and the three guards had prevailed but Robert was still on the throne? What would they have done then? Shipped Jon off to be raised elsewhere until his time came to come home and regain the throne?

They were probably intending to do what Willem Darry was going to do with Viserys. Raise him in exile while gathering supporters who can help you retake the throne.

Would that not be treasonous and what would be their fates?

Why would it be treasonous? They swore no oath to Robert Baratheon, only to the Targaryens. From their point of view, Robert is the traitor.

I thought that a new king inherited the old king's Kingsguard

That's true when a king's heir inherits, but there's nothing in the Kingsguard's vows that says they must serve whoever sits the throne, even a rebel. In fact, their oaths did not envision rebellion at all.

I do find it curious that Selmy and Jaime (can't remember if there were two others) swore the oath to Robert, while it seems unlikely that the three at the ToJ were going to. Does that hint at a split of loyalties amongst the Brothers?

Well, Barristan fought as hard as he could for the Targaryens until he was too wounded to continue. Once he recovered, he discovered that his side had lost, and chose to continue to serve Robert. That was unprecedented, and it was something that he's feels guilty over now.

Do I understand it correctly then, that even assuming R+L=J is true (which I do), once Robert has taken the throne, Jon's true claim to it is no more, no matter how deeply those loyal to his father might wish it to be different?

There are no official laws detailing when a person's claim "disappears" due to someone else stealing their inheritance through conquest (especially since a rebellion is basically the breakdown of law). It all just comes down to which side people support. Those who support the Targaryens will claim the Baratheons are usurpers and traitors and continue to support the Targaryen claim, while those who support the Baratheon claim will come up with rationalizations for their side as well.

[yolkboy]

Where was Jon's dream about him being armoured in ice?

Could someone drop a quote so i can find the passage on my ebook?

[Foxhound]

A Dance With Dragons, Jon XII: "Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist."

[rmholt]

A Dance With Dragons, Jon XII: "Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist."

This makes me think he really is some sort of hero a la Azor ahai. But I am awaiting a new Last Hero with a dragonsteel sword - well maybe the dragonsteel sword lights up but Dawn is milky and in Jaime's dream burnt blue. Its all very confusing. I hope Jon;s armor is Special Ice (like the Others swords)

M

[rmholt]

Back to Jaime and Aerys:

Jaime did have to swear fealty to Robert after all was said and done.

He did kill Rossart before Aerys. Rossart had been dressed as a common man at arms and was with Varys running for a gate. Jaime talks about sending word back and forth with Aerys including permission to make terms and a reply demanding Tywin's head.

He met Aerys after killing Rossart. He was in his gold armor - not white - and told himself that made a difference, like having you rfingers crossed behind your back.

Aerys saw the blood on the sword and again ordered Jaime to behead his father - which by the vows he should have done (one reason I am not too rigid about the vows when it comes to T o J) - Jaime told him it was actually Rossart's blood on the blade. Then Aerys knew he was lost and Jaime was going to kill him. Which he did, right as Tywins knights popped in. He was pretty much left to proclaim the new king (of course that king would have to hold the throne) and he picked none of the Targaryens (Viserys was already at Dragonstone. Aegon was being killed - but Jaime didnt know that) nor his father but plunked himself onto the throne to see who showed up as the victor.

Crakehall was not even surprised to see Jaime holding dead Aerys - the strong impression being Jaime was obeying his loyalty to family over king. This was confirmed when Jaime grilled Balon Swann in the White Sword Tower or whatever it is called. "I will not do as you did"

So Jaime liked to call it his finest act but it was really a one-man clusterf*ck. One would like to say everything worked out OK, but Robert didnt turn out to be such a great king and the Lannisters were a rot in the castle that grew over the next 15-17 years. So I dont know that killing Aerys was his finest act. He could have put him in captivity - who would stop him? Varys? Targ soldiers were busy fighting Lannisters.

Jaime knew what happened at the Trident. He says word reached the castle. When Aerys heard, he sent Viserys and the queen to Dragonstone - which had always been part of Valyria. (Stannis took it later and Viserys and Dany were taken to Braavos with Darry)

Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were not shipped off - they were kept hostage because Aerys did not trust Lewyn Martell.

Tywin also knew about the Trident and that decided him to come. Pycelle faked out Aerys who let Lannisters in the gates.

The other two pyromancers were killed by Jaime days after the red Keep fell.

Teh enb

This was great for seating these events better in my mind.

[rmholt]

How was Jaime supposed to know that Ned was on his way? He's not a mind-reader and he doesn't have the power to see the future (except maybe in those 2 prophetic dreams he had! :) ). The battle for King's Landing was on-going, he had no idea who the next people to come to the throneroom would be. It could just as easily have been Targaryan supporters.

Well, word reached Aerys when Rhaegar went down. Confirmed in ASOS. It would be normal to assume that Tywin also got the news. Then the wildfire situation became an emergency because Aerys would light up the city. However he needed Rossart to do it. I cant imagine Varys letting that happen while Varys was around and that might be why Varys was with Rossart when he was trying to escape. So not sure Jaime was necessary but why take chances? Note, the other two pyromancers were not interested in lighting up the city on their own or they would have.

[King Doug]

Just a few minor corrections...

Aegon was being killed - but Jaime didnt know that) nor his father but plunked himself onto the throne to see who showed up as the victor.

Are you saying Tywin didn't know Aegon was being killed? Because he definitely gave the order.

So Jaime liked to call it his finest act but it was really a one-man clusterf*ck. One would like to say everything worked out OK, but Robert didnt turn out to be such a great king and the Lannisters were a rot in the castle that grew over the next 15-17 years. So I dont know that killing Aerys was his finest act. He could have put him in captivity - who would stop him? Varys? Targ soldiers were busy fighting Lannisters.

I disagree wholeheartedly here. Jaime could not have imprisoned Aerys. He would have been looked at the same way as if he killed the king. His oath was to protect the king, REGARDLESS. Lord Commander Hightower told him when Lord Rickard was roasting that "we vowed to protect the king, not judge him." Boros Blount was looked at as an oathbreaker when he yielded Tommen to Bywater and his gold cloaks, Jaime situation would have been the same, only worse since he yielded the friggin' king, not the King's brother.

Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were not shipped off - they were kept hostage because Aerys did not trust Lewyn Martell.

Elia and her children were kept in KL not because Aerys didn't trust Prince Lewyn Martell. They were kept there as hostages to ensure Dorne's loyalty and support

[Jolene Brown]

Elia and her children were kept in KL not because Aerys didn't trust Prince Lewyn Martell. They were kept there as hostages to ensure Dorne's loyalty and support

No, I think Jaime says something about how Aerys had convinced himself (or Varys had convinced him) after the Trident that there must have been some treachery on Lewyn Martell's part - he was sort of desperately looking for reasons for Rhaegar's loss at that point, presumably. That's why Elia and her children didn't get to go to dragonstone with Rhaella. My memory is a little hazy but I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

Edit: Jaime, ASOS: "Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side."

Also Rossart was not with Varys at all. All it says is "When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate."

[King Doug]

No, I think Jaime says something about how Aerys had convinced himself (or Varys had convinced him) after the Trident that there must have been some treachery on Lewyn Martell's part - he was sort of desperately looking for reasons for Rhaegar's loss at that point, presumably. That's why Elia and her children didn't get to go to dragonstone with Rhaella. My memory is a little hazy but I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

Edit: Jaime, ASOS: "Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side."

Well I stand corrected on that part. I don't remember that at all.