R+L=J v.32

[ealbiest]

Just the small point of Jon's Stark features - and sorry for old boarders, this cannot have failed to come up in previous discussions, which are nebulous. When we learn about Robert's bastards, we get hammered with the fact that the black outdoes the gold every time. In fact, Cercei's children all being blond is why Jon Arryn and then some others begin to suspect they cannot be Robert's. So in case the parentage was Lyanna and Rhaegar, Jon should be dark, not blond with blue eyes.

Jon has already refused to be Lord of Winterfell, which must mean more to him, as he grew up there. The enemy he wants to fight is on the other side of the Wall - not go warring against the people he has sworn to protect. I stake my bet he would renounce a crown, and at least hope he will.

He did not burn his hand in fire but in the cold of the wights/Others, which burns humans like fire does.

[Lady Tyene]

Just the small point of Jon's Stark features - and sorry for old boarders, this cannot have failed to come up in previous discussions, which are nebulous. When we learn about Robert's bastards, we get hammered with the fact that the black outdoes the gold every time. In fact, Cercei's children all being blond is why Jon Arryn and then some others begin to suspect they cannot be Robert's. So in case the parentage was Lyanna and Rhaegar, Jon should be dark, not blond with blue eyes.

Okay, yea I think it's legit for Jon to have Stark features and still be Rhaegar's son, but not for the reason you say. Remember that Elia -- Rhaegar's Dornish, dark featured wife -- gives birth to two children: Rhaenys who has her dark coloring and Aegon who as a baby appears to have his father's light hair and violet eyes. I think it's clear that in GRRM's world, real world genetic laws of dominance and heredity are suspended. And I really think this is a poor argument because even in the real world, someone with very dark hair and eyes (like my dad) and someone with very light hair and blue eyes (like my mom) can still have a child with very light hair and blue eyes (like me). It seems like you're implying that I *should* be dark, which is just a really elementary interpretation of heredity.

[Ygrain]

Okay, yea I think it's legit for Jon to have Stark features and still be Rhaegar's son, but not for the reason you say. Remember that Elia -- Rhaegar's Dornish, dark featured wife -- gives birth to two children: Rhaenys who has her dark coloring and Aegon who as a baby appears to have his father's light hair and violet eyes. I think it's clear that in GRRM's world, real world genetic laws of dominance and heredity are suspended. And I really think this is a poor argument because even in the real world, someone with very dark hair and eyes (like my dad) and someone with very light hair and blue eyes (like my mom) can still have a child with very light hair and blue eyes (like me). It seems like you're implying that I *should* be dark, which is just a really elementary interpretation of heredity.

Not necessarily. All it takes is preserving the recessive Targ gene in the Martell family to allow for heterozygous pairing with Elia, and her children would look either Targ or Martell, depending on whether the recessive or dominant copy was passed on (Rhaegar would be recessive homozygous pairing).

[Ursa]

But, I have started to be suspicious about how other people could NOT know or at least suspect that Jon might be a product of Rhaegar -- or at least that some Rhaegar/Lyanna offspring exists. Lyanna was gone for a whole year when Rhaegar "stole" her away/they ran away together/whatever. It seemed obvious to most people at the time, no matter what side they were on, that Rhaegar had an interest in Lyanna. How could someone like Varys, who knows everything and has his own intricate plots for the iron throne, not piece together who Jon Snow was, or at least be suspicious of another heir?

I think this is where Ned Stark's unbending honor and loyalty come in. He states that he has a bastard son and since he has such a reputation for honesty, no one doubts him. He raises Jon at Winterfell, alongside his trueborn children, something that is generally not done, and people see this as Ned fulfilling his own personal honor - he won't send Jon away to be forgotten like most lords would. And then we have the issue that in the minds of most of the nobles in Westeros, the idea of a lord fathering a child on a woman not his wife during a time of war is just not a big deal.

On the flip side, I think that lots of people who disdain Ned's idea of honor love the idea that he 'slipped up' and that, in the end, he's no better than they are. Jaime's conversation with Cat when he was held prisoner is one example - he sneers at Ned's honor, commenting that Ned fathered a bastard just like any other man and how dare she judge him for doing the same.

As for people like Tywin or Littlefinger, they just don't, IMO, have the mindset to understand why Ned would claim a bastard son that was actually his nephew. They would either turn him over to Robert in order to gain favor with the crown or use him in a power play. But take him home, claim him as a son and never use him as a player in the game? Does not compute.

Varys, for all that he's much smarter that the other two, may not have understood this either - he was after all, quite surprised by Ned's actions in KingsLanding. Even if he did - Jon is no threat to Aegon or any plans Varys may have. Better to wait and see what Ned does with Jon before causing any trouble.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Welcome to the forums to all the n00bs,

R + L = J

I think that all I can say right now.

[ealbiest]

And I really think this is a poor argument because even in the real world, someone with very dark hair and eyes (like my dad) and someone with very light hair and blue eyes (like my mom) can still have a child with very light hair and blue eyes (like me). It seems like you're implying that I *should* be dark, which is just a really elementary interpretation of heredity.

Sure, but this is not the real world. I am implying that it might not be just to reveal Cercei's and Jaime's incestuos relation that the black-haired bastards of Robert Baratheon are brought to our field of vision.

And I thank Council Member Black Wolf Smith whose post I find to be to the point.

[Erudain]

Actually ASoIaF genetics seem to follow quite literally the mendelian inheritance rules.

In case anyone is interested in the topic or does't know about it, google it or here I leave you an easy link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance

[Ygrain]

Actually ASoIaF genetics seem to follow quite literally the mendelian inheritance rules.

In case anyone is interested in the topic or does't know about it, google it or here I leave you an easy link http://en.wikipedia....ian_inheritance

That's what I meant in my earlier post.

[Black Wolf Smith]

@Dragonfish, this is from another thread, but most of it still works for my point.

"Robert will never keep to one bed" Lyanna had told him at Winerfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale" Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

Seems to me that Ned did not think it was so bad that Robert had sleep with a women before he was married.

No Ashara was either during or shortly after HHT, when his brother Brandon was with Cat. As a second son, Ashara might have been a better match then his father would have gotten for him. With his fathers eye to the south, Ned would have likely got the tumbs up.

The fishermans daughter was after he left the Vale, before he got his men and before he married Cat. The story was told to Davos by a nobody lord on the Sisters. Nobody but the lowest of low lifes even deal with the Sisterman, unless they have to. This story was about a year BEFORE he would have come up with a story about Jon, so I don't think its false.

Think about it, alone, shortly after his father and brother(s) were killed by a crazy king. Having to fight a war to save not only his own life, but that of what was left of his family. Put in that postion, he turn to the girl that had been giving him comfort when he was at his most vulnerable. Does it sound like a story we have heard before?

GRRM often has character run on parallel courses, having Ned and Robb going thru the same thing and making the same mistakes but paying very different price for it. Ned had to live with the guilt all these years, living with Cat knowing how much she hated that he had another child without her. While Robb lost his Kingdom, and freedom of his family.

[SFDanny]

Seems to me that Ned did not think it was so bad that Robert had sleep with a women before he was married.

What do you think Ned thought of Robert's sleeping with other women while he was betrothed to his sister and while Robert supposedly waged a war to win her back from her "rapist"? Bella and Gendry are the proof of Lyanna's assessment of Robert and his wandering ways. Robert's "love" seems rather hollow with that reality facing the reader, doesn't it?

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

i think many of us downplay the davos chapter in dance.i think jon was born before the war started and has absolutely no targ blood in him.and as someone suggested he is older than robb by a few years.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Just the small point of Jon's Stark features - and sorry for old boarders, this cannot have failed to come up in previous discussions, which are nebulous. When we learn about Robert's bastards, we get hammered with the fact that the black outdoes the gold every time. In fact, Cercei's children all being blond is why Jon Arryn and then some others begin to suspect they cannot be Robert's. So in case the parentage was Lyanna and Rhaegar, Jon should be dark, not blond with blue eyes.

Jon has already refused to be Lord of Winterfell, which must mean more to him, as he grew up there. The enemy he wants to fight is on the other side of the Wall - not go warring against the people he has sworn to protect. I stake my bet he would renounce a crown, and at least hope he will.

He did not burn his hand in fire but in the cold of the wights/Others, which burns humans like fire does.

I never knew about the hand being burned by cold thing. I thought it was from sticking his hand in the fire.

Does anyone know when Jon first appears in the storyline? Is it while Ned is on his way back to Winterfell, or is it some other time?

[rmholt]

I never knew about the hand being burned by cold thing. I thought it was from sticking his hand in the fire.

THat's because it was pulled completely out of the poster's butt

[The guy from the Vale]

i think many of us downplay the davos chapter in dance.i think jon was born before the war started and has absolutely no targ blood in him.and as someone suggested he is older than robb by a few years.

If Jon was years older than Robb, Ned could never have claimed that Jon was younger than Robb, because people would see it was a lie. We also have GRRM telling us Jon was born around the time of the Sack of King's Landing. Both intels combined mean that the fisherman's daughter is a red herring

[Zupoleon]

Seems to me that Ned did not think it was so bad that Robert had sleep with a woman before he was married

I doubt Ned was "ok" with Roberts tendencies. At this point in the story, Lyanna will certainly marry Robert with no hint of what is to come. Ned, as a caring brother tries to reassure his sister, and allay any doubts she might have - while also hoping that his best friend will change his ways once they are married. I imagine if Robert continued his behavior after he was married to Lyanna, Ned would have confronted him about it...

What do you think Ned thought of Robert's sleeping with other women while he was betrothed to his sister and while Robert supposedly waged a war to win her back from her "rapist"? Bella and Gendry are the proof of Lyanna's assessment of Robert and his wandering ways. Robert's "love" seems rather hollow with that reality facing the reader, doesn't it?

I always felt Robert loved the chase more than the girl. He probably "realized" that he loved Lyanna once Rhaegar took her from him. Robert wasn't made to sit still - either on the throne, or with a girl...

[The Great Cornholio!]

He probably doesnt really love her. Just the idea of her.

[Dragonfish]

@Dragonfish, this is from another thread, but most of it still works for my point.

Let me see if I understand you: are you saying that Ned did father a bastard before he was married to Catelyn, but that this bastard is not the same child as the Jon Snow we all know? So when Ned tells Robert he fathered Jon after he married Catelyn, he's not referring to the child he actually conceived? Do I have your argument right?

This story was about a year BEFORE he would have come up with a story about Jon, so I don't think its false.

I take great issue with this logic. All we know is that the story is about something that occurred before Ned found Jon. We have no idea, however, if the story was first heard before Ned found Jon. For all we know, Ned was the one who spread the rumor after he came back from the South. So your conclusion that it cannot be false is, I think, incorrect.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Sure, but this is not the real world. I am implying that it might not be just to reveal Cercei's and Jaime's incestuos relation that the black-haired bastards of Robert Baratheon are brought to our field of vision.

And I thank Council Member Black Wolf Smith whose post I find to be to the point.

Actually I think you're missing the point of the bastards. What they basically set Robert and the Barratheons up as having it AA genes that result in dark hair and blue eyes (I.e. completely dominant). The reason he has so many bastards is to show that basically what the mother looked like didn't matter, the kids were always black haired and blue eyed. It really was only designed to point out

If black/dark hair always won out generally through Westeros ALL of Ned's kids would have the "Stark" look but they don't. In fact it only Arya of his trueborn kids, which suggests that the Starks genes are Aa, where sometimes they win out and sometimes they don't.

[Ygrain]

Actually I think you're missing the point of the bastards. What they basically set Robert and the Barratheons up as having it AA genes that result in dark hair and blue eyes (I.e. completely dominant). The reason he has so many bastards is to show that basically what the mother looked like didn't matter, the kids were always black haired and blue eyed. It really was only designed to point out

If black/dark hair always won out generally through Westeros ALL of Ned's kids would have the "Stark" look but they don't. In fact it only Arya of his trueborn kids, which suggests that the Starks genes are Aa, where sometimes they win out and sometimes they don't.

Actually, there still may have been a litle more genetics involved - all the mothers Varys mentions were light-haired, which gives a pretty high chance of light-coloured eyes, which, in turn, would allow for blue eyes in offspring even if this particular trait was recessive.

[rmholt]

Actually, there still may have been a litle more genetics involved - all the mothers Varys mentions were light-haired, which gives a pretty high chance of light-coloured eyes, which, in turn, would allow for blue eyes in offspring even if this particular trait was recessive.

It's not Varys, it's the Big Book of whatever. If the mother was dark there wouldnt be much interest in the child. So there were probably Baratheon - dark hair matches, they just arent pertinent.