Bastard of Hardyng Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Am I the only one who thinks the R in R+L=J should stand for Robert? Could it be the reason Lyanna ran away with (if she wasn't carried away) Rhaegar was because she was betrothed to Robert and possibly impregnated by him? We know Robert had a weakness for the ladies, isn't possible he could be Jon's father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tyene Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Not necessarily. All it takes is preserving the recessive Targ gene in the Martell family to allow for heterozygous pairing with Elia, and her children would look either Targ or Martell, depending on whether the recessive or dominant copy was passed on (Rhaegar would be recessive homozygous pairing).The thing is, in real life - at least with humans - it's more complicated than just a mendel's basic genetic principles. There isn't just 1 gene for hair color or eye color with 2 parts -- one from each parents. There are a ton of genes that read for a single feature. Same thing with height and skin tone and everything. And most people inherit a combination of their parents genes and end up having a blend. I'm not sure what really lies between silver and black hair or between purple and brown eyes, but a real life pairing between a Rhaegar and Elia would have been more likely to result in children with blended features than in children who were mini-me's with their parent's exact features. This is why, actually, I think the argument that YG/Aegon's eyes are a darker shade of purple than Rhaegar's shouldn't mean he can't be Rhaegar's son -- somewhere along the spectrum of purple-brown would probably result in a color darker than Rhaegar's. ANYWAY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Am I the only one who thinks the R in R+L=J should stand for Robert? Could it be the reason Lyanna ran away with (if she wasn't carried away) Rhaegar was because she was betrothed to Robert and possibly impregnated by him? We know Robert had a weakness for the ladies, isn't possible he could be Jon's father?Jon was conceived a few months into the war, so it is very, very unlikely that Robert is the father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 The thing is, in real life - at least with humans - it's more complicated than just a mendel's basic genetic principles. There isn't just 1 gene for hair color or eye color with 2 parts -- one from each parents. There are a ton of genes that read for a single feature. Same thing with height and skin tone and everything. And most people inherit a combination of their parents genes and end up having a blend. I'm not sure what really lies between silver and black hair or between purple and brown eyes, but a real life pairing between a Rhaegar and Elia would have been more likely to result in children with blended features than in children who were mini-me's with their parent's exact features. This is why, actually, I think the argument that YG/Aegon's eyes are a darker shade of purple than Rhaegar's shouldn't mean he can't be Rhaegar's son -- somewhere along the spectrum of purple-brown would probably result in a color darker than Rhaegar's. ANYWAY.Young Griff's eyes are actually lighter than Rhaegar's. I'm not sure how that affects your analysis, though I don't think it matters. George has said in the past that genetics in his world need not be exactly the same as genetics in our world, which is basically his way of saying "don't overthink it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushido Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Yes,Aegon's/Young Griff's eyes are blue,while Rhaegar's were indigo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the White Wolf Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Ageed, and Wolves as well, :thumbsup:But yes, another thread.Hail to Stormbringer! :DCan't resist -- last off-topic post, I promise! The Melniboneans also had some Targ-like incest going on too, if my memory serves (I read the Elric series when I was ten-ish, which was a long time ago...)Elric would also have a thing or two to say to Rhaegar concerning melancholy silver-haired dragon lords and their penchant for doomed love affairs. Aaaaaah, poor Elric. I cried and cried my ten-year-old eyes out when a certain incident happened...as tragic as Rhaegar and Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Can't resist -- last off-topic post, I promise! The Melniboneans also had some Targ-like incest going on too, if my memory serves (I read the Elric series when I was ten-ish, which was a long time ago...)Elric would also have a thing or two to say to Rhaegar concerning melancholy silver-haired dragon lords and their penchant for doomed love affairs. Aaaaaah, poor Elric. I cried and cried my ten-year-old eyes out when a certain incident happened...as tragic as Rhaegar and Lyanna.Ehh, they'll just be back to argueing about why the KG were at the TOJ again, so if we deviate a bit, they'll just ignore us.But, I cried too, and your right about the similaritiesIn many ways, Elric had the same impact on his Kingdom that Rhaegar did.Also good memory on the incest.Elrics Consort was his cousin, Cymoril, and her Brother, Prince Yrrkoon was in love and planned to marry her when he displaced Elric since Elric had no male heirs, so he put her under a spell that essentially put her in a coma, which as definitely tragicAlso, Taarna from Moorcocks "Heavy Metal"- Dany 2.0http://www.deviantart.com/download/20337931/Taarna_by_Raven207b.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the White Wolf Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 welcome to the forums, please feel free to read some of the last 30 or so threads about this topic.Is there anyplace I can get a icon with a gun pointing at my head? :bang:Tee hee! Exactly. I think we need yet another essay written by some kind, very patient soul summarizing these issues as well...any volunteers?? Argh. Too much work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 welcome to the forums, please feel free to read some of the last 30 or so threads about this topic.Is there anyplace I can get a icon with a gun pointing at my head? :bang:Tee hee! Exactly. I think we need yet another essay written by some kind, very patient soul summarizing these issues as well...any volunteers?? Argh. Too much work for me.This is a conversation, not a course of study, as I see it. I read the books awhile ago and reread them recently. I didnt spend a lot of time on stuff beyond the main plotlines. I am just beginning to put some of the details in the book together in some coherent fashion in my head. I have discovered the Citadel, SSM, and the wiki, and also Google is unusually helpful. But it is fine to just jump in and flail around until one figures out how to float - that is how most forums go. It was a joke on Usenet when AOL joined (and to a lesser extent every September) about the flood of people new to the arena that had to be cleared out, as it were. Welcome to new people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 It's not Varys, it's the Big Book of whatever. If the mother was dark there wouldnt be much interest in the child. So there were probably Baratheon - dark hair matches, they just arent pertinent.No. The book lists the unions and descriptions between noble houses. Somewhere (Ned's PoV in the dark cells, I think) Varys lists the hair colours of a couple of women Robert conceived his bastars on.The thing is, in real life - at least with humans - it's more complicated than just a mendel's basic genetic principles. There isn't just 1 gene for hair color or eye color with 2 parts -- one from each parents. There are a ton of genes that read for a single feature. Same thing with height and skin tone and everything. And most people inherit a combination of their parents genes and end up having a blend. I'm not sure what really lies between silver and black hair or between purple and brown eyes, but a real life pairing between a Rhaegar and Elia would have been more likely to result in children with blended features than in children who were mini-me's with their parent's exact features. This is why, actually, I think the argument that YG/Aegon's eyes are a darker shade of purple than Rhaegar's shouldn't mean he can't be Rhaegar's son -- somewhere along the spectrum of purple-brown would probably result in a color darker than Rhaegar's. ANYWAY.Of course, GRRM uses a highly simplified model, but what I had on mind that he seems to be using it consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 No. The book lists the unions and descriptions between noble houses. Somewhere (Ned's PoV in the dark cells, I think) Varys lists the hair colours of a couple of women Robert conceived his bastars on.Of course, GRRM uses a highly simplified model, but what I had on mind that he seems to be using it consistently.OK and OK.I agree at least that he is consistent. For example I just ran across a statement in ADWD (I think) about Lyseni's silver hair and fair coloring (cant recall if it mentioned eyes) coming from a significant Valyrian Freehold population.I am very interested in dog coat colors - I went to Africa to get dogs with a specific coloring because I knew there were dogs there with the genetics associated with that coloring. There were dogs with that very specific coloring there, so I got one dog but her genetics were totally opposite on that locus!! Apparently some Salukis have been found with the same phenomenon. This was totally unexpected and had not been known at the time I got the dog. Even Mendel's peas werent Mendel's peas - he was pretty selective with his data - but insightful enough that he did it right.Short story long: Arguing about genetics beyond what Martin states is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emilydayne Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 OK so Jon and Edric aren't brothers... But does anybody think its possible that Edric Dayne could be Azor Ahai? Also, I keep thinking about the fact that Areys has bastards scattered all over- the same way Robert does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Does anybody think its possible that Edric Dayne could be Azor Ahai?Honestly, I think people are way over-thinking his role in the story. So no, I don't think he's Azor Ahai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Honestly, I think people are way over-thinking his role in the story. So no, I don't think he's Azor Ahai.There has to be a Lord of Starfall and Ned is him. He was there to tell Arya (and us) his version of Jon's history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emilydayne Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Ok thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Ehh, they'll just be back to argueing about why the KG were at the TOJ again, so if we deviate a bit, they'll just ignore us.Hee, this made me giggle.Could it possibly be the case that 'the gold always yields before the black' is not actually a genetic rule in George's universe and Baratheon black always winning is just something that happened? So that the maester that wrote the book and Jon Arryn and Ned incorrectly think there is a rule but actually there is just a large coincidence? It sounds improbable but I am thinking of the old adage 'fiction has to be plausible, reality doesn't' - if we are treating the world of Westeros as a reality, perhaps we can allow for the occasional implausibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Hee, this made me giggle.Could it possibly be the case that 'the gold always yields before the black' is not actually a genetic rule in George's universe and Baratheon black always winning is just something that happened? So that the maester that wrote the book and Jon Arryn and Ned incorrectly think there is a rule but actually there is just a large coincidence? It sounds improbable but I am thinking of the old adage 'fiction has to be plausible, reality doesn't' - if we are treating the world of Westeros as a reality, perhaps we can allow for the occasional implausibility.It's only true in the known cases and only Baratheon was evaluated. Doesnt mean it is 100% even for Baratheon and says nothing about other families or even about the many other births that were not recorded. But it happened to confirm the truth. In no other situation are we told that there is any conclusion to be drawn from someone's appearance except what we are explicitly told. Any posts about coloring relating to genetics otherwise are speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wolf Smith Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 @Dragonfish, I thought one thing we did agree on, was that Ned did not tell any one, anything? I think the story of the fishermans daughter is true, I don't know if he had a bastard are not, but the base of the story is true. This happened before he knew about Jon, maybe before he knew about Cat. I don't know if he ask to marry Cat or if Hosteror the Maester pushed for it, . I just don't see Ned spreading rumors around about anything, let alone himself ( IIRC he said something about hating those). I also like that fact that Robb was in almost the same postion when he met Jeyne, as Ned would have been in with the fishermans daughter. My last point is that Ned when thinking about Lyanna, told her that what happened before did not matter, which I think most men in Westeros would think, and then later in that said he couldn't lie to her, so when he said that he did not think he was not lying to her then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 @Dragonfish, I thought one thing we did agree on, was that Ned did not tell any one, anything? I think the story of the fishermans daughter is true, I don't know if he had a bastard are not, but the base of the story is true. This happened before he knew about Jon, maybe before he knew about Cat. I don't know if he ask to marry Cat or if Hosteror the Maester pushed for it, . I just don't see Ned spreading rumors around about anything, let alone himself ( IIRC he said something about hating those). I also like that fact that Robb was in almost the same postion when he met Jeyne, as Ned would have been in with the fishermans daughter. My last point is that Ned when thinking about Lyanna, told her that what happened before did not matter, which I think most men in Westeros would think, and then later in that said he couldn't lie to her, so when he said that he did not think he was not lying to her then.I didn't catch the beginning of your conversation, so I'm not sure if I'm not throwing in nonsense: I believe the story is true, as well - i.e., that there was a fisherman's daughter who helped Ned. Lord Godric claiming that Ned fatehred his bastard on her is, IMHO, just Lord Godric trying to put two and two together, based on the facts available to him: Lord Eddard spent the time in the company of a girl whose social status makes her a plausible candidate and the timeline roughly fits, ergo, she is Eddard's bastard's mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Am I the only one who thinks the R in R+L=J should stand for Robert?YES. I went on a date once with a guy who insisted R=Robert...I never called him again because I was so irritated. It made no sense!!...Was that you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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