R+L=J v.32

[Mother of Dragons]

Wanted to pose a question here to R+L=J. I do believe this, for the record, but how does this theory explain why Jon got a direwolf with Ned's other children?

Also, who in the books is still alive who knows the truth? H.Reed, maybe, if he ever shows up. Would Barristan Selmy know?

[Alia of the knife]

Wanted to pose a question here to R+L=J. I do believe this, for the record, but how does this theory explain why Jon got a direwolf with Ned's other children?

Also, who in the books is still alive who knows the truth? H.Reed, maybe, if he ever shows up. Would Barristan Selmy know?

I don't think it's a matter of why he gets a Direwolf, but the signifigance lay in what kind.

Jon gets adirewolf because he is a Stark, and it symbolizes his Stark blood, but his direwolf symbolizes his difference.

It's my opinion that all their direwolves and their naming, are an extention of the Stark children.

- Ghost is Jons connection to Bloodraven, a Targ. and by association, his real Father.

- Greywolf was an extention of Robb

- Nymeria most likely foreshadows Aryas future connection to Dorne, and her own fate as a potential Leader of her own pack.

- Lady was an extention of Sansas gentle nature, and her loss potentially symbolizes the severed connection to Pack Stark in a way that is more extreme than just being separated from her family as to me, IMHO, she was the least Stark-like.

- Summer reflects Brans calm nature, and perhaps the stabalizer of the pack.

- Shaggydog reflects Rickons wild, undiciplined nature.

And yes, most likely Howland knows everything, and while Selmy knew some things, I don't think he knows about Jon.

[corbon]

Wanted to pose a question here to R+L=J. I do believe this, for the record, but how does this theory explain why Jon got a direwolf with Ned's other children?

Also, who in the books is still alive who knows the truth? H.Reed, maybe, if he ever shows up. Would Barristan Selmy know?

He's a Stark (Lyanna). Its Stark-ness that matters, not Ned-ness.

Howland Reed, probably Wylla, possibly some other nameless servants from ToJ. Remote possibility, Ashara Dayne, aka Lemore. Selmy is very unlikely - he wasn't part of Rhaegar's inner circle, has no apparent way of knowing, and has displayed no indications of such knowledge.

[Mother of Dragons]

So in order for this question to be answered, we need Reed's POV. I kinda lost hope tjis would ever be answered, actually. Like a dropped story line :(

He's a Stark (Lyanna). Its Stark-ness that matters, not Ned-ness.

Howland Reed, probably Wylla, possibly some other nameless servants from ToJ. Remote possibility, Ashara Dayne, aka Lemore. Selmy is very unlikely - he wasn't part of Rhaegar's inner circle, has no apparent way of knowing, and has displayed no indications of such knowledge.

[Alia of the knife]

So in order for this question to be answered, we need Reed's POV. I kinda lost hope tjis would ever be answered, actually. Like a dropped story line :(

I think that Reed is the only one that holds detailed information, with the exception of someone like Wylla who was most likely the midwife who helped to deliver Jon.

[LadyMary]

Wanted to pose a question here to R+L=J. I do believe this, for the record, but how does this theory explain why Jon got a direwolf with Ned's other children?

Also, who in the books is still alive who knows the truth? H.Reed, maybe, if he ever shows up. Would Barristan Selmy know?

I don't think it's a matter of why he gets a Direwolf, but the signifigance lay in what kind.

Jon gets adirewolf because he is a Stark, and it symbolizes his Stark blood, but his direwolf symbolizes his difference.

It's my opinion that all their direwolves and their naming, are an extention of the Stark children.

- Ghost is Jons connection to Bloodraven, a Targ. and by association, his real Father.

- Greywolf was an extention of Robb

- Nymeria most likely foreshadows Aryas future connection to Dorne, and her own fate as a potential Leader of her own pack.

- Lady was an extention of Sansas gentle nature, and her loss potentially symbolizes the severed connection to Pack Stark in a way that is more extreme than just being separated from her family as to me, IMHO, she was the least Stark-like.

- Summer reflects Brans calm nature, and perhaps the stabalizer of the pack.

- Shaggydog reflects Rickons wild, undiciplined nature.

And yes, most likely Howland knows everything, and while Selmy knew some things, I don't think he knows about Jon.

Good questions Mother of Dragons, and interesting theories about what the Direwolves represent about the Stark children's natures/futures, Alia the Knife.

I thought the dead mother direwolf represented House Stark, destroyed by the Stag - House Baratheon, although actually destroyed by the bastard on the throne who is Baratheon in name only.

I think the fact that Jon's direwolf was set apart from the others in looks and proximity represents his difference; that he is of House Stark but his parentage is different than the others. Most would assume it's because he's Ned's bastard, but those of us who believe R+L=J understand that it means something more. Ghost's placement apart from the others may be because he is a cousin of Ned's children, not a sibling, and that he is a Stark by extension through his mother's blood and his uncle's adoption of him, but he is also the son (and possible heir) of another great House - Targaryen. I think the fact that Ghost is mute may represent that Jon's true identity is unspoken and I wonder if Ghost will speak when Jon's true identity is revealed.

I do think each of the direwolves represents something about the Stark children's personalities and futures (or present, in the case of Sansa).

Bran's Summer gives Bran legs and eyes beyond his physical limitations and keep aware of his siblings presences.

We don't know what Rickon is thinking but it seems his internal chaos and anger is manifested in Shaggydog's behavior probably as a result of his "abandonment" and displacement.

Nymeria kills without fear and leads a pack of smaller wolves, whereas Arya is bent on revenge and training to be a better killer. Whether she ends up being a warrior or not it is too soon to say, but the fact that her own mother saw a vision of her while praying to the warrior makes me wonder about her future role.

Robb's Greywind was an extension of his swift and powerful prowess on the battlefield. The manner of their respective deaths and post-mortem mutilation suggests that others could sense the bond between them.

Lady was a victim of the lies and brutality of the King's court, just as Sansa is. The fact that Lady was killed seems to sever Sansa's connection to House Stark and makes me wonder if her power will come later in some other part of Westeros, either ruling alongside a Southern Lord or in her assumed identity as Alayne Stone.

As to who knows what about Jon's identity, I believe GRRM has said that Howland Reed knows all, but it will be some time before he reveals what he knows. Selmy's thoughts do not betray even a suspicion that Rhaegar had fathered any children but the two who were known, and yet he seems to know the intimate details of other Nobles - namely Ashara Dayne and her stillborn daughter. Clearly he was not one of Rhaegar's confidants but he did keep track of those he cared about (Ashara). Wylla must certainly know, but she claimed or has allowed others to believe that she is Jon Snow's mother. I wonder if Benjen knows and if his enlistment in the Night's Watch has something to do with enabling the elopment of Lyanna with Rhaegar.

[Mother of Dragons]

Good questions Mother of Dragons, and interesting theories about what the Direwolves represent about the Stark children's natures/futures, Alia the Knife.

thank you, Lady Mary, I've heard the theories fleshed out before about the direwolves and the stark children, but it's great to her more input because other people catch things that I miss, even on subsequent re-reads. It's impossible, even for the author to keep track of everything; I hear he uses the Citadel as a source when he forgets stuff!! :ack: I have just started to wonder recently if maybe Jon's parentage isn't even relevant anymore. Like maybe he was "just a bastard", and his storyline is about him evolving into a man and accepting this.

I think the fact that Jon's direwolf was set apart from the others in looks and proximity represents his difference; that he is of House Stark but his parentage is different than the others. Most would assume it's because he's Ned's bastard, but those of us who believe R+L=J understand that it means something more. Ghost's placement apart from the others may be because he is a cousin of Ned's children, not a sibling, and that he is a Stark by extension through his mother's blood and his uncle's adoption of him, but he is also the son (and possible heir) of another great House - Targaryen. I think the fact that Ghost is mute may represent that Jon's true identity is unspoken and I wonder if Ghost will speak when Jon's true identity is revealed.

Here is an example of some dots I never connected! I had wondered why Ghost was mute, also, but honestly, sometimes metaphors really annoy me, which is why I come onto these boards. My field is engineering, so I rely on you guys to figure them out for me and post them! This could well be the case, I'm certain Ghost's muteness was relevant, and in the back of my mind I would wonder why....but I'd kind of forget about it. GRRM definitely has this written in as the case for Ghost as a reason, and I think your theory here makes sense and holds water.

Nymeria kills without fear and leads a pack of smaller wolves, whereas Arya is bent on revenge and training to be a better killer. Whether she ends up being a warrior or not it is too soon to say, but the fact that her own mother saw a vision of her while praying to the warrior makes me wonder about her future role.

I'm re-reading ASOS right now. was this when she prays at the sept in ACOK before Renly dies? I never caught this, before. I do think that Arya and the old song about Queen Nymeria are parallel story lines, but I didn't see the warrior connection when Cat was praying. If it happens in the ASOS book, I'll have to look more closely.

Lady was a victim of the lies and brutality of the King's court, just as Sansa is. The fact that Lady was killed seems to sever Sansa's connection to House Stark and makes me wonder if her power will come later in some other part of Westeros, either ruling alongside a Southern Lord or in her assumed identity as Alayne Stone.

This is why I don't think Jon is dead. As you pointed out, when Robb died, his direwolf died with him. We've all heard GRRM says this will be a series with a bittersweet ending, I'm certain that one of the "bitters" will be that Sansa will never realign with the Starks. She pushed aside that chance the day she set aside her family and lied to choose her "life of songs". Yes, I know, even Ned sticks up for her, but she shouldn't of lied. I don't doubt that Sansa will have her life as a high lady, married to another highborn, but that sweetness will probably be tainted with the bitterness she feels inside when she realizes when she has all these things, she isn't as happy as she thought she might be.

I think it's notable, though that Sansa still appears to have some sort of warging ability, although it's not as strong of course as Arya, Bran, or John. We'll never know with Robb since we didn't see his POV, but when Sansa gets her period in ACOK, she's having a wolf dream, and she senses Lady in the room with her. Lady's spirit is still with her, she's a Stark because it's in her DNA, but I don't think we'll see a Sansa reunion after what happened with Lady. The writing of the direwolves is too deliberate, and we know from the beginning that this whole story is about the direwolves. (I'm referring here to a quote GRRM made to Entertainment Weekly when he explained that the whole reason he got the idea of ASOIAF was from thinking about the wolf puppies being found in the snow. I don't have the quote on hand, but if anyone seriously challenges this, I could maybe be bothered to go look for it. I am sure it's not annecdotal though, and it was in a real article).

[Mother of Dragons]

As to who knows what about Jon's identity, I believe GRRM has said that Howland Reed knows all, but it will be some time before he reveals what he knows. Selmy's thoughts do not betray even a suspicion that Rhaegar had fathered any children but the two who were known, and yet he seems to know the intimate details of other Nobles - namely Ashara Dayne and her stillborn daughter. Clearly he was not one of Rhaegar's confidants but he did keep track of those he cared about (Ashara). Wylla must certainly know, but she claimed or has allowed others to believe that she is Jon Snow's mother. I wonder if Benjen knows and if his enlistment in the Night's Watch has something to do with enabling the elopment of Lyanna with Rhaegar.

Do we know that Wylla is alive? I can't remember. I read this series every year, and except for the main plot points, I swear it's like I'm reading them for the first time again. I guess that's a blessing, but there is so much minutiae that I can't keep all the facts straight. That, and we know that the POVs aren't always reliable narrators, because they're remembering from their perception of events.

GRRM is a literary genius. Who thinks of things like 'unreliable narrator'? This is absolutely true in real life. I tell people that he's a great mystery writer. Every single word he writes is deliberate, and how the heck and he keep the clues straight for all the connections the reader can make? For example, was it Lem who was the singer at Riverrun at the end of AFFC? I remembered the description of his cloak from the previous book when I read that, but I'd forgotten the guy's name by that point. Or Balerion the kitten in Dany's vision and the black tom cat that Arya chases.

Anyway, back on topic: It seems that if Ashara and Selmy were in touch, Selmy might know some things about the mystery, or reasons as to why Ashara may have killed herself...or if she did kill herself. Maybe her stillborn wasn't stillborn and if we're buying into the theory that Ashara=Septa Lenore, Fake Aegon might be hers. However, Ashara and Selmy may of been incommunicado if it was too dangerous.

Do we know that Howland Reed will be in the books? I suppose it's possible he told Jojen and Meera, isn't it odd that Howland Reed didn't show up to the call to banners when the Lords were all there? Why would he send his kids in his place unless he was too old, ill, or already dead. Nobody ever offers a reason as to why Reed didn't show up. But the reason I wonder if Jojen and Meera know is because they knew about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and were surprised Bran didn't know the story. They talk about the sad ending, so those were the clues that made me think the sad ending is the Tower of Joy.

[rmholt]

YES. I went on a date once with a guy who insisted R=Robert...I never called him again because I was so irritated. It made no sense!!

...Was that you?

Everyone has his or her deal breakers.

[rmholt]

I don't think it's a matter of why he gets a Direwolf, but the signifigance lay in what kind.

Jon gets adirewolf because he is a Stark, and it symbolizes his Stark blood, but his direwolf symbolizes his difference.

It's my opinion that all their direwolves and their naming, are an extention of the Stark children.

Someone (Cat?) recalled how the direwolves reflected the kids. Note when the kids are getting angry inside or afraid the wolves will express it. Shaggy Dog is as angry as Rickon, for example. Nymeria is named after one of Arya's heroes also.

I found it interesting that after Lady dies, Sansa does have at least one wolf dream. Since the others remember Lady she might be able to get into the warg network.

Jon has wolf dreams every single night but we are told this in exactly one sentence and in other places only one or two of these dreams are described. He denies his wolf-ness and skinchanging talent so much that we are misdirected - well *I* was :)

Bran has only seen summer - he is 2 years younger than the current summer.

[Dragonfish]

@Dragonfish, I thought one thing we did agree on, was that Ned did not tell any one, anything? I think the story of the fishermans daughter is true, I don't know if he had a bastard are not, but the base of the story is true.

I could be true in certain aspects, as Ygrain points out. But I'm skeptical that Ned really had a bastard.

This happened before he knew about Jon, maybe before he knew about Cat.

Right, but my point is that you're falsely assuming that because the rumors are about something that occurred before the Ned knew about Jon, then they must have begun before New knew about Jon. But we don't know when they began. They could easily have started after Ned came back from the war, which opens up all kinds of explanations of their origin.

[rmholt]

thank you, Lady Mary, I've heard the theories fleshed out before about the direwolves and the stark children, but it's great to her more input because other people catch things that I miss, even on subsequent re-reads. It's impossible, even for the author to keep track of everything; I hear he uses the Citadel as a source when he forgets stuff!! :ack:

He also has a mountain of 3x5 cards.

Here is an example of some dots I never connected! I had wondered why Ghost was mute, also, but honestly, sometimes metaphors really annoy me, which is why I come onto these boards. My field is engineering, so I rely on you guys to figure them out for me and post them! This could well be the case, I'm certain Ghost's muteness was relevant, and in the back of my mind I would wonder why....but I'd kind of forget about it. GRRM definitely has this written in as the case for Ghost as a reason, and I think your theory here makes sense and holds water.

not all the metaphors are going to make sense partly IMHO because some are partly (or wholly) based on speculation. I am a hard scientist as well and after a little nudging from this forum I can come up with some (lame) ones. I find GRRM's intentional metaphors and symbolism pretty easy since he actually explains them at some point. I think.

I'm re-reading ASOS right now. was this when she prays at the sept in ACOK before Renly dies? I never caught this, before. I do think that Arya and the old song about Queen Nymeria are parallel story lines, but I didn't see the warrior connection when Cat was praying. If it happens in the ASOS book, I'll have to look more closely.

This is why I don't think Jon is dead. As you pointed out, when Robb died, his direwolf died with him. We've all heard GRRM says this will be a series with a bittersweet ending, I'm certain that one of the "bitters" will be that Sansa will never realign with the Starks. She pushed aside that chance the day she set aside her family and lied to choose her "life of songs". Yes, I know, even Ned sticks up for her, but she shouldn't of lied. I don't doubt that Sansa will have her life as a high lady, married to another highborn, but that sweetness will probably be tainted with the bitterness she feels inside when she realizes when she has all these things, she isn't as happy as she thought she might be.

I think it's notable, though that Sansa still appears to have some sort of warging ability, although it's not as strong of course as Arya, Bran, or John. We'll never know with Robb since we didn't see his POV, but when Sansa gets her period in ACOK, she's having a wolf dream, and she senses Lady in the room with her. Lady's spirit is still with her, she's a Stark because it's in her DNA, but I don't think we'll see a Sansa reunion after what happened with Lady. The writing of the direwolves is too deliberate, and we know from the beginning that this whole story is about the direwolves. (I'm referring here to a quote GRRM made to Entertainment Weekly when he explained that the whole reason he got the idea of ASOIAF was from thinking about the wolf puppies being found in the snow. I don't have the quote on hand, but if anyone seriously challenges this, I could maybe be bothered to go look for it. I am sure it's not annecdotal though, and it was in a real article).

I found only one time Ghost made a sound. This was when Bran was talking to Jon through the warg network, when Ghost was scouting the wildlings in the frost fangs. He howled. Or Jon did :)

Another interesting thing to me: The ship Silence is black and seems evil while Ghost is silent but white and good. Is this important? or intentional? Heck if I know. Bran and Brynded are often described as creatures of the dark and Mel sees this as a sign they are evil, but what does she know, really?

[Mother of Dragons]

I found only one time Ghost made a sound. This was when Bran was talking to Jon through the warg network, when Ghost was scouting the wildlings in the frost fangs. He howled. Or Jon did :)

i like this "warg network" term. I remember Sansa's wolf dream too, i just mentioned it, but I don't see that touched upon very much. maybe it's significant because when Bran becomes a tree, he'll be able to speak to her too.

Another interesting thing to me: The ship Silence is black and seems evil while Ghost is silent but white and good. Is this important? or intentional? Heck if I know. Bran and Brynded are often described as creatures of the dark and Mel sees this as a sign they are evil, but what does she know, really?

well, you know what they say about the dogs that don't make any sound, how they are more dangerous than the ones that at least warn you with a growl? maybe this has something to do with Jon's latent super badness. Mel thinks everyone who isn't part of her R'hllor fanaticism is evil, when she's one who's the evil little shit, giving birth to shadow babies and wanting to burn real babies alive.

What the heck does Mel know? this a profound question which I will think upon.

[rmholt]

Do we know that Wylla is alive? I can't remember. I read this series every year, and except for the main plot points, I swear it's like I'm reading them for the first time again. I guess that's a blessing, but there is so much minutiae that I can't keep all the facts straight. That, and we know that the POVs aren't always reliable narrators, because they're remembering from their perception of events.

I dont know if we know Wylla is still alive. I think Ned Dayne saw her last. I am on a reread beyond counting and just now ran across many things, such as the Lyseni have a lot of Targ-like looks because the valyrian freehold was there.

GRRM is a literary genius. Who thinks of things like 'unreliable narrator'? This is absolutely true in real life. I tell people that he's a great mystery writer. Every single word he writes is deliberate, and how the heck and he keep the clues straight for all the connections the reader can make? For example, was it Lem who was the singer at Riverrun at the end of AFFC? I remembered the description of his cloak from the previous book when I read that, but I'd forgotten the guy's name by that point. Or Balerion the kitten in Dany's vision and the black tom cat that Arya chases.

Oh, yes, when he talks about all the bricks having to be well made and put together properly you can see exaclyt what he means! The singer was Tom o Sevens. Edmure has hated singers since one (Tom as a matter of fact) made a song about a floppy fish which was really about Edmures manhood. I dont recall a kitten in dany's vision but I am pretty sure the old black cat Arya chases is Balerion, Rhaenys' cat. He would be 15-16 years old. I also wonder about Tommens 3 kittens - they are black - are they from Balerion? Are they representing the 3 black dragons? Or is this just a pattern GRRM likes to repeat. He repeats numbers as well, 163 once, 63 twice for example. Parallels are everywhere - Frey pie and the rat cook - a chorus in the background - Jeor's raven at the wall echoing the conversation and ... others I cant recall. He repeats a lot of the memes, sayings, etc. I agree he has transcended his genre into the realm of great literature, like Ursula Le Guin, Madeleine L'Engle, and Ray Bradbury.

Anyway, back on topic: It seems that if Ashara and Selmy were in touch, Selmy might know some things about the mystery, or reasons as to why Ashara may have killed herself...or if she did kill herself. Maybe her stillborn wasn't stillborn and if we're buying into the theory that Ashara=Septa Lenore, Fake Aegon might be hers. However, Ashara and Selmy may of been incommunicado if it was too dangerous.

Pretty sure their romance was all in Selmy's head.

Do we know that Howland Reed will be in the books? I suppose it's possible he told Jojen and Meera, isn't it odd that Howland Reed didn't show up to the call to banners when the Lords were all there? Why would he send his kids in his place unless he was too old, ill, or already dead. Nobody ever offers a reason as to why Reed didn't show up. But the reason I wonder if Jojen and Meera know is because they knew about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and were surprised Bran didn't know the story. They talk about the sad ending, so those were the clues that made me think the sad ending is the Tower of Joy.

After a bit of searching the Westeros site (Howland Reed Novels search words) I found this in So Spake Martin: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Sentry_Box_Books_Signing_Calgary_Canada/

From Nov 2000:

"We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book..."

So maybe TWOW!

The sad ending and the tale of the crannogman on the Isle of Faces (another story referred to but deferred) are very interesting teases, I agree.

Your joy is contagious and delightful.

Marie

[Budj]

Yea - I don't remember thinking Ashara and Selmy ever had a mutual thing, just that Selmy was a silent admirer. The only way Selmy will find out before anyone else is if Ashara is alive / is Septa Lemore and she tells him about it (my guess) - at this point we have no reason to suspect Selmy will have anything to do with it though.

Ghost is also silent to highlight Jon's quiet understanding of the world. I think he was described as growing the fastest as well which also paralleled Martin stressing that Jon's "bastard vision" forced him to see the world for what it was faster than the other kids....minus the actual state of the NW which he was a rude awakening for him upon his arrival at the Wall.

I don't remember the howling portion, but I'll be re-reading after I finish catching up Dunk and Egg so I'm sure I'll get plenty of refreshers, haha.

[Mother of Dragons]

. I dont recall a kitten in dany's vision but I am pretty sure the old black cat Arya chases is Balerion, Rhaenys' cat. He would be 15-16 years old. I also wonder about Tommens 3 kittens - they are black - are they from Balerion? Are they representing the 3 black dragons?

this is the same kitten, i thought Rhaeny was petting a kitten when Dany sees the vision of Rhaegar and his family in the house of the undying when he says the dragon has 3 heads....good catch with Tommen's kittens! They may just be baby Balerions

Pretty sure their romance was all in Selmy's head.

unfortunately, has a tendency to happen sometimes, in real life and make believe. Look at Jorah presuming he could be one of Dany's husbands :shocked:

After a bit of searching the Westeros site (Howland Reed Novels search words) I found this in So Spake Martin: http://www.westeros....lgary_Canada/

From Nov 2000:

"We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book..."

So maybe TWOW!

woohoo!!!! good work!!

Your joy is contagious and delightful.

Marie

Thank you, Marie! Kind of you to say. I'm Joanna, long time lurker since 2009 :read:

[Mother of Dragons]

Yea - I don't remember thinking Ashara and Selmy ever had a mutual thing, just that Selmy was a silent admirer. The only way Selmy will find out before anyone else is if Ashara is alive / is Septa Lemore and she tells him about it (my guess) - at this point we have no reason to suspect Selmy will have anything to do with it though.

Ghost is also silent to highlight Jon's quiet understanding of the world. I think he was described as growing the fastest as well which also paralleled Martin stressing that Jon's "bastard vision" forced him to see the world for what it was faster than the other kids....minus the actual state of the NW which he was a rude awakening for him upon his arrival at the Wall.

I don't remember the howling portion, but I'll be re-reading after I finish catching up Dunk and Egg so I'm sure I'll get plenty of refreshers, haha.

Yes, I think both you and Marie are correct about the Selmly thing. I've been trying to re-read on the weekends because I am so busy during the week after work, I feel like my brain is bleeding when I get home!! Or I fall asleep by 9 pm. I'm a gov't contractor here in DC, so gov't and military people are always up and working at the ass-crack of dawn, when it's still black outside. Ergo, I do too.

I have Dunk and Egg, but would you believe I haven't managed to read them yet? I think I might as well just wait for the last one to come out, I hear it's about the She-Wolves of Winterfell, and I'm excited beca use it ties into my Skagos theory that I postulated about in another topic. I need to find the thread that tells you what order to read the D&E books. i.e. after ASOIAF book should you read the first novella, then the 2nd, and so on.

Anyway, I find I'm spending more time reading the forum crackpot theories then the actual literature itself. I think I managed 1 Bran chapter today in ASOS.

[LadyMary]

thank you, Lady Mary, I've heard the theories fleshed out before about the direwolves and the stark children, but it's great to her more input because other people catch things that I miss, even on subsequent re-reads. It's impossible, even for the author to keep track of everything; I hear he uses the Citadel as a source when he forgets stuff!! :ack: I have just started to wonder recently if maybe Jon's parentage isn't even relevant anymore. Like maybe he was "just a bastard", and his storyline is about him evolving into a man and accepting this...

Well, Mother of Dragons, I pick up on things here and at other forums that hadn't ever occurred to me all the time. I'm sure I'm not the first to connect Ghost's muteness with the silence about Jon's true parentage, but I do think there must be a reason for it, and it makes sense that the two are connected.

I'm re-reading ASOS right now. was this when she prays at the sept in ACOK before Renly dies? I never caught this, before. I do think that Arya and the old song about Queen Nymeria are parallel story lines, but I didn't see the warrior connection when Cat was praying. If it happens in the ASOS book, I'll have to look more closely.

Not to get too far off topic, but this is one of those things... I was perusing a re-reading of some chapters from ACoK at TotH and the reader mentioned the bit about Catelyn seeing Arya when she prayed to the Warrior - yes, before Renly's death. I didn't recall it myself.

This is why I don't think Jon is dead. As you pointed out, when Robb died, his direwolf died with him. We've all heard GRRM says this will be a series with a bittersweet ending, I'm certain that one of the "bitters" will be that Sansa will never realign with the Starks. She pushed aside that chance the day she set aside her family and lied to choose her "life of songs". Yes, I know, even Ned sticks up for her, but she shouldn't of lied. I don't doubt that Sansa will have her life as a high lady, married to another highborn, but that sweetness will probably be tainted with the bitterness she feels inside when she realizes when she has all these things, she isn't as happy as she thought she might be.

I think it's notable, though that Sansa still appears to have some sort of warging ability, although it's not as strong of course as Arya, Bran, or John. We'll never know with Robb since we didn't see his POV, but when Sansa gets her period in ACOK, she's having a wolf dream, and she senses Lady in the room with her. Lady's spirit is still with her, she's a Stark because it's in her DNA, but I don't think we'll see a Sansa reunion after what happened with Lady. The writing of the direwolves is too deliberate, and we know from the beginning that this whole story is about the direwolves. (I'm referring here to a quote GRRM made to Entertainment Weekly when he explained that the whole reason he got the idea of ASOIAF was from thinking about the wolf puppies being found in the snow. I don't have the quote on hand, but if anyone seriously challenges this, I could maybe be bothered to go look for it. I am sure it's not annecdotal though, and it was in a real article).

I think Sansa has paid an extremely high price for her girlish naivete about who she could trust in Kings Landing. She was taught to be what she is and Ned knew that. She's lost her direwolf, her father, her brothers and her mother who are all reportedly dead, and her sister is missing and presumed dead. She's lost her childhood home, been kept as a hostage, abused, threatened, passed from one Lannister (Joffrey) to another (Tyrion) and is now under the control of a man who set her up to be blamed for a murder that she was not a willing part of, which means she's completely dependent on Littlefinger's whims. She has learned how to navigate the "chaos" surrounding her whichm akes her an interesting pupil for the one who thrives on Chaos. Sansa may be able to commune with Lady's ghost and be able to bond with the old dog in Littlefinger's keep, but she's had to make the most complete transformation from being a Stark for her own survival. Jon is Sansa's only connection to the Starks and he's the one she identified with the least when they were all together as children. Now that she's pretending to be a bastard, she's starting to appreciate what it means, and thinks fondly of her half-brother. Her growth arc has been one of my favorites, but I think the fact that she has lost so much of her Stark identity probably means that she can never go back to being a Stark.

Back on topic...

Do we know that Wylla is alive? I can't remember. I read this series every year, and except for the main plot points, I swear it's like I'm reading them for the first time again. I guess that's a blessing, but there is so much minutiae that I can't keep all the facts straight. That, and we know that the POVs aren't always reliable narrators, because they're remembering from their perception of events.

I seem to recall Edric Dayne speaks of her as if she's still a servant, but was his wet nurse in the past. I don't think it's ever been confirmed otherwise. I'm sure no one would think to investigate further, unless the Northern Lords need Jon for their scheme to reinstate the Starks. It seems Manderly at least, is aiming for a true born son of Ned, not Ned's assumed bastard who is already committed to the NW - but who knows what will happen in later books?

Anyway, back on topic: It seems that if Ashara and Selmy were in touch, Selmy might know some things about the mystery, or reasons as to why Ashara may have killed herself...or if she did kill herself. Maybe her stillborn wasn't stillborn and if we're buying into the theory that Ashara=Septa Lenore, Fake Aegon might be hers. However, Ashara and Selmy may of been incommunicado if it was too dangerous.

Do we know that Howland Reed will be in the books? I suppose it's possible he told Jojen and Meera, isn't it odd that Howland Reed didn't show up to the call to banners when the Lords were all there? Why would he send his kids in his place unless he was too old, ill, or already dead. Nobody ever offers a reason as to why Reed didn't show up. But the reason I wonder if Jojen and Meera know is because they knew about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and were surprised Bran didn't know the story. They talk about the sad ending, so those were the clues that made me think the sad ending is the Tower of Joy.

It is curious that Howland Reed wasn't present to Lord Bran Stark and sent his children instead, but maybe that's because Jojen the greenseer said it had to be that way. Also, it should be noted that Howland is conducting a guerilla war against Ned's enemies in the Neck, so he's doing what he can to aid the cause.

I think that if Ned has asked Howland Reed to keep Lyanna's secret, he would do it. That doesn't mean he wouldn't give a his kids a more complete picture of what transpired with the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Lyanna's reactions to Rhaegar and visa-versa. It would be a sad ending if what happened at Harrenhal lead to the "kidnapping" of Lyanna the subsequent murders of Rickard and Brandon Stark, Robert's Rebellion and Lyanna's death. That's what I took away from Meera's comment on the "sadder tale" without even getting into the specifics of what happened at the ToJ.

[Zupoleon]

After a bit of searching the Westeros site (Howland Reed Novels search words) I found this in So Spake Martin: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Sentry_Box_Books_Signing_Calgary_Canada/

From Nov 2000:

"We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book..."

So maybe TWOW!

I wonder whether it will be an actual Howland Reed POV, or if he'll just appear in someone else's POV instead...

[Roddy Darwin]

GRRM said there would be no new POVs, so I doubt we get one from Howland.