Rereading Tyrion

[anonymouseuser]

The thing is that for us, family means love, cohesion, a home.

For Westeros, that *may* happen (see Ned, Cat, current batch of Starks), but above all, family IS about legacy, about "brand", identification, about a powerbase, about belonging and a sense of pride. In a society like Westeros, the family unit is also the political unit, with the liege lord and his lady wife, which are often joined due to political reasons in a marriage of convenience.

In that sense, Tywin has a great sense of family. In the more modern sense, he's pretty terrible at it since he shows little or no love for his children, he demands obedience and is extremely harsh if he feels his children should somehow be in danger of damaging the family name.

Normally I'm totally on-board with the idea that we cannot apply our modern concepts of what is right and reasonable behaviour to a society that is clearly so different from our own. However family is not only a universal concept it is also a timeless one.

On a practical level among noble families things like negotiating dynastic marriages - Rhaegar and Elia - is one thing, but there is no indication when we see the inner workings of the Martells, Tyrells, Starks etc., that there is this total lack of any kind of emotional attachment - even Roose Bolton speaks with regret about his dead (legitimate) son for example and he is hardly the most sentimental of men. (Then there are the Freys but obviously there are so many of them.....and the Late Lord Frey is a man who has a great deal in common with Tywin). So yes, I will continue to insist that identifying what drives Tywin as a sense of family is a mis-statement. He is an empire builder. What this man wants is immortality and the fact that he identifies this with the continuation of a name or bloodlines is not be confused with having a sense of family any more than "what's good for General Motors is good for America " should be confused with patriotism.

[Winter's Knight]

Tywin's views on family from the shw-he's lecturing Jaime:

Your mother's dead. Before long I'll be dead, and you and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us rotting underground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor... but family. You understand?

The future of our family will be determined in these next few months. We could establish a dynasty that would last a thousand years... or we could collapse into nothing, as the Targaryens did..

[anonymouseuser]

One part of this chapter that deserves a bit more attention goes back to the question of methods of leadership. Tyrion has previously lamented that he entirely lacks the ability of his elder brother to lead men with inspiration and charisma. When he fights in the battle of the Green Fork, we see a hint that he has perhaps been decieving himself, and that he does possess the capacity for leadership tools other than manipulation and self-interest. When the Hill tribesmen spontaneously break out into their new warcry "Halfman! HALFMAN!" it is something of a revelatory moment, even if Tyrion himself misses it in the heat of the battle.

Yes that is one of the strange things about Tyrion. He always seems to think that it's his money and position that gain him access to power and of course initially he's right. However, it would seem that once he's got his foot in the door - once people for want of a better expression "get to know him" it's a different matter. Who knows what might have happened after the battle of Blackwater if Tyrion hadn't been robbed of the credit for that victory and his supporters (power base) dispersed by his father?. And more to the point, what will happen if he ever manages to be in that position again?

[anonymouseuser]

Tywin's views on family from the shw-he's lecturing Jaime:

It doesn't matter what he says - as we've seen on many occasions the reasons people think or say they have for what they do are not necessarily anything more than self-delusion. And quite apart anything else he's lecturing Jaime precisely because his son is refusing to do what he wants him to. So once again it's about Tywin calling the shots and being in charge. He may say " it's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor... but family.". But the reality is that this is a society that still recalls the age of heroes and Lann the Clever, so don't try to tell me Tywin isn't thinking of that aspect whatever he may say to persuade Jaime.

[Fire Eater]

The memory of Tywin's father Lord Tytos is what drives Tywin. Tywin is pretty much the Okonkwo of ASOIAF. In Things Fall Apart, Okonkwo's father was poor, effeminate, cowardly and lazy; a source of shame for Okonkwo who by contrast became, hardworking, rich, great military prowess and never showed any emotion except anger. Tytos was enormously fat, a bad lord but kind and amiable. Tywin by contrast, looks strong and healthy for a man his age as noted by Tyrion and Arya, is an excellent Hand and lord but a poor father.

Tywin, like Okonkwo, strives to be the opposite of everything his father was, and this proves to be one of his greatest flaws as well as virtues. This proves to be the downfall of both characters. What Tywin failed to grasp is that not everything Tytos did he did wrong, there were some things Tytos did right that Tywin ends up doing wrong, namely being a caring, attentive father. He let himself be blinded by the glory of House Lannister and fail to attain to the needs of those within it. Confucius did say that the ruler's family was a microcosm of the kingdom. It comes to no surprise that Tywin's family later comes to resemble the Seven Kingdoms: divided against each other and filled with strife.

[Elba the Intoner]

Adding to the analyses of the armor that's been discussed, the South and Tywin in particular very showy and ornate as opposed to the North in general and Gregor's, Tyrion's is mismatched, with some of it ornate and some plain. This could be a symbol of the duality in his nature that has been pointed out earlier as well as his conflicts about wanting to be a Lannister and please Tywin but on the other hand not feeling respected or appreciated by his family and the hate he feels from Tywin.

Also, just wanted to go back to the question about whether Tyrion had been to King's Landing often, he was definitely there for Joff's name day tourney. He admits to Catelyn that he was there but that he never bets against his family when she tells him about the knife.

[Lyanna Stark]

Right so, I finally got my hands on my notes. Most of the Tywin - Tyrion dynamic has already been discussed already, so I'll leave that be. I'll focus more on the Shae dynamic since it will play out during ACOK and ASOS from here on.

On the larger political scale, we see that Tywin was wrong about Robb Stark. He underestimated him. But we also know Roose Bolton was leading the army that met Tywin, and Tywin said about the encounter that the Stark boy was more cautious than he expected him to be. Was this because Robb was actually this good, or was it because Roose was leading this particular army? I'm not disparaging Robb's skills, but he seems to be more for executing daring and fairly clever plans than being careful.

We also get to see some northmen captives namedropped that will be important or semi-important later on: Ser Wylis Manderly and Harrion Karstark. Lord Hornwood is also reported dead (which had dire consequences for Lady Hornwood I imagine).

On the more person scale, we have Tyrion facing his first organised battle. In the beginning of the chapter, he is grumpy, but he still acknowledges the splendours of the Lannister camp. The red and gold banner is magnificent, people make space for him at the table, he banters with his father. Then the hammer blow comes: he is going to fight in the van under Gregor Clegane. And here, Tyrion's worldview literally turns dark.

Dusk had settled, turning all the banners black.

No one looked at him. No one spoke to him. No one paid him any mind. He was surrounded by men sworn to House Lannister, a vast host twenty thousand strong, and yet he was alone.

He gets lost in the camp, people are eating and rejoicing, and Tyrion feels abadonded and alone. Although one has to ask oneself, if it's dark outside, how are people going to recognise him? He doesn't wear distinct armour like Tywin or Jaime and he has no retinue. This seems more a reflection of Tyrion knowing his father is willing to sacrifice him (dying in battle is noble, it won't stain the family name) and that he, Tyrion, may very well die on the next day. It's a distinct possibility. It helps explain his dark mood here, I think and the way he interacts with Bronn and especially Shae later.

People who are described in this chapter.

Pod: We meet Pod for the first time. At first he is just described as "unfortunate" and so shy he cannot speak, but Tyrion checks and he does have a tongue, unlike his distant cousin Ilyn. Then we got this, which struck me as possible foreshadowing??

"Definitely a tongue", he had said. "Someday you must learn to use it."

Will something Pod has to say end up important? Will he one day save Tyrion, or perhaps Brienne, or Jaime, with a testimony? It just seems like a throwaway reference of the same type as Theon pointing out that Hodor definitely knew his name, or the Hound saying to Arya they might be in time for her uncle's bloody wedding.

Shae: We also meet Shae for the first time. She's fetched by Bronn from somebody and we see that Tyrion made sure that Bronn told her who he was and what he was, since he cannot stand the rejection when whores get put off by him being a dwarf. On the one hand, we sympathise with Tyrion here since women are put off by his looks, but on the other hand, these are women bought and sold, this is a business transaction, why does he need to pretend that they love him, or even like him? Beatles said it right in "Can't buy me love", because it's true.

You can, however, buy the illusion of love, and this is what Tyrion does here. Shae plays the part pretty well with being glib and rather bold, yet mostly obedient. When Tyrion rattles of his rather repulsive list of what he wants her to do, she just replies "Fair enough" and undresses. Then she seals the charade with kissing him, basically entering into the "girlfriend" role, and Shae is pretty good at this. I'd say she's not the average whore in this way in that she "tuned in" to what Tyrion wanted, and she turns herself into that. It's further highlighted by the following comments:

"..Are you a maiden, Shae?"

"If it please you, m'lord," she said demurely.

"What would please me would be the truth of you, girl."

"Aye, but that would cost you double."

Tyrion decided they would get along splendidly.

This is basically Shae telling him she will play whatever part he wants her to play, and Tyrion is happy with that. He wants a virgin, she'll be a virgin. He wants a girlfiend, she'll play his girlfriend. And the "cost you double" comment is really just "the truth is not worth it". Shae is doing what Littlefinger does so well: she feeds Tyrion lies he wants to hear. She does the same when they have sex. He doesn't know whether she is faking it or not, but he says he doesn't care, yet we see how he enjoys it all the same. Yet what he wants, as he says himself, is "her or someone like her". Meaning Shae_the_person is less important than what she stands for. She has turned into The Girlfriend here. She has turned into Tysha, and he whistles Tysha's song. We also see Shae using the moniker "my giant of Lannister" for the first time and in general stroking Tyrion's ego to the best of her abilities.

Later on, Tyrion is going to ride out into battle, and we have the following:

"If I die, weep for me," Tyrion told the whore.

"How will you know? You'll be dead."

and also

"Podrick, should the battle go against us, see the lady safely home."

Again Tyrion puts Shae in the girlfriend role, to the point of being so gallant as to ask Pod to escort her home should the worst happen. However, it's interesting how Shae's real nature and outlook comes through here in "How will you know? You'll be dead." We also see her lying about how he looks fearsome in her armour, while it's actually really mismatched (more on that later).

Further, Bronn totally avoids Tyrion's questions about where he found Shae. Is she actually a plant? Did he "receive" her from Tywin perhaps? Shae names some minor retainer, but she also tells Tyrion straight out to not care about the truth, and he takes her advice on this. It's odd that Bronn is being so furtive. Maybe Pod knows where Shae came from and will one day tell Tyrion?

Gregor Clegane: This is one of the few occasions we actually get fairly close to Gregor Clegane, apart from his short but effectful appearance at the Hand's Tourney. Bronn has a rather cynical view of the whole thing and thinks Gregor will make a splendid target. Tyrion's own view is that Gregor is a brainless brute. (I wonder if the show used Gregor's words here for Sandor at the Battle of the Blackwater "Any man runs, I'll cut him down myself"? ) So Tyrion's view of him is decidedly negative, although it's not clear just how much he knows about what a monster Gregor really is. It also makes you wonder if he equals Gregor with Sandor in his mind and they both end up in the "brainless brute" category. It's certainly possible.

Further, we see Gregor getting his horse killed again, and this time it also seemed on purpose. He sacrificed the horse to get inside the northerners line and then laid into them. Sacrificing a horse or some people seem like nothing to Gregor, he doesn't care one bit. There again he contrasts his brother in that Sandor doesn't engage in wanton cruelty for fun and doesn't seem big on tormenting animals (he even names his horse, and we know that Jaime thinks it's no point doing that since you're just going to miss it when it dies: naming a horse is a sentimental thing in that regard).

Lastly, a bit of foreshadowing for Tyrion in mismatched armour among the Second Sons?

He had to make do with oddments assembled from Lord Lefford's wagons: mail hauberk and coif, a dead knight's gorget, lobstered greaves and gauntlets and pointed steel boots. Some of it was ornate, some plain; not a bit of it matched, or fit as it should. His breastplate was meant for a bigger man; for his oversize head, they found a huge bucket-shaped greathelm topped with a foot-long triangular spike.

I also thought of what Elba brought up that the mismatched armour may relfect Tyrion's personality, to a degree. A lot of it also fit "a bigger man". Tyrion may have a bigger impact than he thinks, or anyone expects? He will go down in history as a "big man"?

[Natalie_S]

No, but they are rather unique in the south for being so plainly adorned. It seems more common in the north, and Septa Mordane remarks on how drab Jory Cassel looks compared to the gallant and splendid southern knights at the Tourney. Well, except for the brothers Clegane then, although I am not sure Gregor is described as wearing plain armour a the Hand's Tourney (I can't recall) but I know the Hound is described in such a way. Perhaps to indicate that these people are more interested in function than flair? For the northerners that is undoubtedly true, at least. Although for the Cleganes, it seems something that ties them together in a south otherwise pre-occupied with flair and gallantry. In that way they stand out as they are not poor hedge knights (like Dunk :) ) so there is no need to dress so plainly.

It could also be due to the fact that the Cleganes are relatively new to nobility.

If I can recall correctly it was Tytos that made Gregor's and Sandor's grandfather a noble and gave him a small keep.

The plain armour might be simply due to the fact that they're not so rich and, so to speak, second rate nobility.

[Natalie_S]

He gets lost in the camp, people are eating and rejoicing, and Tyrion feels abadonded and alone. Although one has to ask oneself, if it's dark outside, how are people going to recognise him? He doesn't wear distinct armour like Tywin or Jaime and he has no retinue.

Oh well, Tyrion is not exactly difficult to spot, is he? :)

What are the odds of finding another little person in the Lannister camp?

You can, however, buy the illusion of love, and this is what Tyrion does here. Shae plays the part pretty well with being glib and rather bold, yet mostly obedient. When Tyrion rattles of his rather repulsive list of what he wants her to do, she just replies "Fair enough" and undresses. Then she seals the charade with kissing him, basically entering into the "girlfriend" role, and Shae is pretty good at this. I'd say she's not the average whore in this way in that she "tuned in" to what Tyrion wanted, and she turns herself into that. It's further highlighted by the following comments:

This is basically Shae telling him she will play whatever part he wants her to play, and Tyrion is happy with that. He wants a virgin, she'll be a virgin. He wants a girlfiend, she'll play his girlfriend. And the "cost you double" comment is really just "the truth is not worth it". Shae is doing what Littlefinger does so well: she feeds Tyrion lies he wants to hear. She does the same when they have sex. He doesn't know whether she is faking it or not, but he says he doesn't care, yet we see how he enjoys it all the same. Yet what he wants, as he says himself, is "her or someone like her". Meaning Shae_the_person is less important than what she stands for. She has turned into The Girlfriend here. She has turned into Tysha, and he whistles Tysha's song. We also see Shae using the moniker "my giant of Lannister" for the first time and in general stroking Tyrion's ego to the best of her abilities.

I think that here Tyrion barely knows Shae here, and it's not so strange IMHO that he sees her only as a professional figure, so to speak.

In ACOK we will see very clearly the evolution of his feelings for her, to the point that he acknowledges his love for her about halfway in the book (if I recall correctly).

It would be very hypocrite or naive of him to think that he's in love after the brief exchange of that night.

I don't think though that he doesn't treat her as a person, in fact he's quite thoughtful towards her, trying not to disturb her while she sleeps, ordering Pod to make sure she's safe during the battle etc.

PS: I don't find "rubbing his aching legs after a day's ride" or "pouring him wine" particularly repulsive tasks (especially considering the usual treatment of prostitutes in the series, see Gregor Clegane)... it's only sad that he needs to pay someone to have some kind of companion.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh well, Tyrion is not exactly difficult to spot, is he? :)

What are the odds of finding another little person in the Lannister camp?

Judging by Pods story (and real life examples of camp followers and armies marching), there are probably a fair share of children around, and in the darkness, people cannot make out Tyrion very well. They just see that he's someone short.

I think that here Tyrion barely knows Shae here, and it's not so strange IMHO that he sees her only as a professional figure, so to speak.

The main gist here of my argument is that even from the very start, Tyrion isn't seeing her as a professional figure, not really. On the surface perhaps, but what he is trying to buy is a girlfriend, not a whore for the night. He wants a girlfriend and a companion: he wants Tysha back. This is further enhances by how he whistles Tysha's song while he is with Shae. Shae is a direct Tysha replacement. He even calls her a lady the day after to Pod. Tyrion is already here straddling the divide between knowing that he bought an illusion, and completely buying into that the illusion is real. Sometimes he seems to be more in the first mode, sometimes in the other.

In ACOK we will see very clearly the evolution of his feelings for her, to the point that he acknowledges his love for her about halfway in the book (if I recall correctly).

It would be very hypocrite or naive of him to think that he's in love after the brief exchange of that night.

I don't think though that he doesn't treat her as a person, in fact he's quite thoughtful towards her, trying not to disturb her while she sleeps, ordering Pod to make sure she's safe during the battle etc.

But who is it he loves? Is it really Shae_the_person? Tyrion loves the feeling of being loved, of being in love. He even states "he nedeed her, or someone like her". Shae herself here is not important, what role she can take in Tyrion's life is. Tyrion asks about the truth of her, but is actually pleased that she doesn't give it to him.

PS: I don't find "rubbing his aching legs after a day's ride" or "pouring him wine" particularly repulsive tasks (especially considering the usual treatment of prostitutes in the series, see Gregor Clegane)... it's only sad that he needs to pay someone to have some kind of companion.

The way he says it reminds me more of how he'd speak to a servant than to a companion or girlfriend though, and then he's also quite crude with how he states that he's not only interested in what's between her legs, but of course that he'll expect to have that too.

Shae here becomes a white canvas. She's a female body Tyrion can project his wishes on. She's alternating between whore, servant and his lady love in this chapter, and like a chamaeleon she inhabits all roles, as needed.

[Woman of War]

"What would please me would be the truth of you, girl."

"Aye, but that would cost you double."

Tyrion decided they would get along splendidly.

I got the impression that Tyrion here is impressed and amused by Shae's sharp wit and sense of humour shown by this rather spontaneously clever answer.

And serving wine and rubbing sore legs are normal tasks for servants, certainly not demeaning in a society like Westeros with its strict class borders and not necessarily linked to sexual services. As being a physiotherapist certainly is not demeaning today.

As we can see later with Dany and her handmaid the border between sexual services and the general job of a servant were rather unclear. I do not know what the general attitude may have been at that timesetting, if body servants had broader tasks, only limited by the fact that e.g. Tyrion certainly was never interested in "broader support" by Pod as Jaime was not interested in Pia. No idea in how far servants were more protected than prostitutes.

[anonymouseuser]

I got the impression that Tyrion here is impressed and amused by Shae's sharp wit and sense of humour shown by this rather spontaneously clever answer.

And serving wine and rubbing sore legs are normal tasks for servants, certainly not demeaning in a society like Westeros with its strict class borders and not necessarily linked to sexual services. As being a physiotherapist certainly is not demeaning today.

As we can see later with Dany and her handmaid the border between sexual services and the general job of a servant were rather unclear. I do not know what the general attitude may have been at that timesetting, if body servants had broader tasks, only limited by the fact that e.g. Tyrion certainly was never interested in "broader support" by Pod as Jaime was not interested in Pia. No idea in how far servants were more protected than prostitutes.

I agree. So many of the comments surrounding Tyrion's attitudes and behaviour around women seems to be tinged with dislike because they are judged by modern day standards. However by Westerosi standards Tyrion apparently treats Shae (and later Yaya) with a certain amount of concern for their wellbeing, which most men in his position wouldn't bother doing. I think we can assume from this that he treats the women he pays generously and with consideration. It's hardly unreasonable of him to give Shae his list of requirements in advance - after all this is a kind of job interview and she is entitled to know what she's getting herself into. As for his tone when he speaks to her, like you and others I got the impression that it was a bit of banter on both sides and on Tyrion's part at least, an added attraction.

[Lummel]

The wine pouring and leg rubbing were presumably done previously by the body servant who gets killed in the Mountains of the Moon.

I'm hesitant to read too much into the armour since Tyrion isn't a standard size and does have a proper made to measure suit back home at Casterly Rock. So to me the mismatched armour seems like more a basic practical reality rather than a symbolic comment on his nature.

Something that I like about Tyrion's vision of the battle is how confused it feels. To me it gave a feel of what it might be like to have your outlook restricted to what your helmet allows you to see - just a succession of individual combat until things calm down enough to allow you to pitch back the helm and have a look around.

ETA I'll open up rereading tyrion II once we get a little closer to 400 posts so don't be shy to post :)

ETA2 new thread open with extra imaginative title :)

[Natalie_S]

Judging by Pods story (and real life examples of camp followers and armies marching), there are probably a fair share of children around, and in the darkness, people cannot make out Tyrion very well. They just see that he's someone short.

If it's so dark that they can't tell the difference between a child and a dwarf, I'd doubt they could distinguish even a particularly ornated armour.

But who is it he loves? Is it really Shae_the_person? Tyrion loves the feeling of being loved, of being in love. He even states "he nedeed her, or someone like her". Shae herself here is not important, what role she can take in Tyrion's life is. Tyrion asks about the truth of her, but is actually pleased that she doesn't give it to him.

I think we should make a distinction between how Tyrion sees Shae at the beginning, in AGOT, and what she actually becomes later.

Their relationship is not set since their first encounters, it changes and develops in the books.

At first, I think that everything is clear for Tyrion: he's buying the service of a professional (work in exchange for money), he can enjoy the feeling and the illusion, but in this phase is aware of what he's doing.

The only thing that he's not aware of is that Tysha was not a prostitute, so what he's trying to do, recreate and relive the same experience, is hopeless in the first place.

At this point Shae is "her or someone like her", and the truth is not particularly important. This is a employing transaction.

He's gentle with her, but he'd probably behave in the same way with anyone else.

Later, in ACOK, he starts with keeping her as an employer, constantly reminding himself that he's just paid to fake affection and pleasure, but eventually starts getting more and more attached to her, also because he feels he has to protect her from whatever scheme people at court might come up to get controlo of him.

At this point the truth starts becoming important: Tyrion tells her about his inner demons, about Tysha, and probably also about his problems at court (since Shae repeatedly offers to help him).

Even if it's not directly shown in the POV, also Tyrion learns more and more about Shae, and it's obvious that he cares because he remembers and immediatly spots when what she tells him is inconsistent ("“My father made me his kitchen wench,” she said, her mouth twisting. “That was why I ran off.” “You told me you ran off because your father made you his whore,” he reminded her.).

At this point Shae is not just a whore interchangeable with anyone like her, he's someone that Tyrion loves and feels it's extremely important to protect.

[anonymouseuser]

But who is it he loves? Is it really Shae_the_person? Tyrion loves the feeling of being loved, of being in love. He even states "he nedeed her, or someone like her". Shae herself here is not important, what role she can take in Tyrion's life is. Tyrion asks about the truth of her, but is actually pleased that she doesn't give it to him.

The way he says it reminds me more of how he'd speak to a servant than to a companion or girlfriend though, and then he's also quite crude with how he states that he's not only interested in what's between her legs, but of course that he'll expect to have that too.

Shae here becomes a white canvas. She's a female body Tyrion can project his wishes on. She's alternating between whore, servant and his lady love in this chapter, and like a chamaeleon she inhabits all roles, as needed.

I'm not sure what your point is. This happens the night before the battle, right? So as far as Tyrion's concerned it could literally be his last night on earth so what if he wants the girlfriend experience? I've never been a sex worker but I imagine this type of thing must be more paletable that other "services" that might be required. The fact that he doesn't treat her as a real person might not necessarily have anything to do with her profession (which by the way he doesn't seem to despise her for). It might be about the fact that he doesn't know her as a person yet.

As for "Tyrion asks about the truth of her, but is actually pleased that she doesn't give it to him", I interpreted that has Tyrion being quite pleased she gave him his answer, that she was smart enough and sassy enough to do so - actually this may be the moment when she stops being a blank canvas and becomes Shae to him.

[Lyanna Stark]

At first, I think that everything is clear for Tyrion: he's buying the service of a professional (work in exchange for money), he can enjoy the feeling and the illusion, but in this phase is aware of what he's doing.

The only thing that he's not aware of is that Tysha was not a prostitute, so what he's trying to do, recreate and relive the same experience, is hopeless in the first place.

At this point Shae is "her or someone like her", and the truth is not particularly important. This is a employing transaction.

He's gentle with her, but he'd probably behave in the same way with anyone else.

That depends if you think his comments about "weep for me" and asking Pod to escort the lady home are throw away comments. Or not. I tend to think they are not throw away comments. Tyrion is in a hurry, he is stressed, he knows he might die. We know from how he feels beforehand that he fears he may die. His whole world turned dark when he realised he would be in the van, the most dangerous place in the battle.

These may be some of the last words he is ever uttering, and he is doing so to a woman to whom he just whistled Tysha's song, and he wanted so badly to be pretend in love with her, too.

I do agree that Shae herself is not particularly important here. Perhaps unlike you, I don't think she ever becomes that, either. Shae always remains the blank canvas Tyrion is projecting his wishes upon. She plays a part and she does it well. (It's not until Sansa comes into the picture Shae is threatened, either. Because Tyrion does the same with Sansa, to a degree. He projects his wishes of the little house and the white picket fence upon Sansa.)

As for Tyrion's gentleness, I don't think he enjoys cruelty. Cersei and Tywin strike me as two people who enjoy humiliating others and who can occasionally enjoy cruelty for its own sake, but Tyrion does not. He'll employ it if he has to, and he can be extremely cold and flippant about it, but he's not cruel for the sake of cruelness, unless he feels he has a reason for it. That reason may or may not be valid to us readers, I might add.

I'm not sure what your point is. This happens the night before the battle, right? So as far as Tyrion's concerned it could literally be his last night on earth so what if he wants the girlfriend experience? I've never been a sex worker but I imagine this type of thing must be more paletable that other "services" that might be required. The fact that he doesn't treat her as a real person might not necessarily have anything to do with her profession (which by the way he doesn't seem to despise her for). It might be about the fact that he doesn't know her as a person yet.

He *might* not care, but from what we have seen so far, and from what we can glean from reading Tyrion's earlier chapters, how Tyrion is strongly influenced by Tywin's view of prostitutes and how the Tysha incident influenced him, we can make an interpretation based on those things and reach the conclusion that he does care, it does matter and the transactional nature of Tyrion's relationships is important.

Tyrion wants the "girlfriend experience", and this thread is about analysing, not about judging his character whether I think he's personally right or wrong for wanting it. I did notice that he does want the girlfriend and he does use her as a Tysha replacement, to the point of whistling Tysha's song. He asks her to weep for him and refers to her as a lady. It's significant for Tyrion's story arc, for his character development and for how he reacts later to Shae's "betrayal" that he is, in fact, buying into the girlfriend illusion - and he starts doing so very early. In fact, there are small signs that he's doing it already here, in AGOT.

[Natalie_S]

I got the impression that Tyrion here is impressed and amused by Shae's sharp wit and sense of humour shown by this rather spontaneously clever answer.

And serving wine and rubbing sore legs are normal tasks for servants, certainly not demeaning in a society like Westeros with its strict class borders and not necessarily linked to sexual services. As being a physiotherapist certainly is not demeaning today.

As we can see later with Dany and her handmaid the border between sexual services and the general job of a servant were rather unclear. I do not know what the general attitude may have been at that timesetting, if body servants had broader tasks, only limited by the fact that e.g. Tyrion certainly was never interested in "broader support" by Pod as Jaime was not interested in Pia. No idea in how far servants were more protected than prostitutes.

I agree. So many of the comments surrounding Tyrion's attitudes and behaviour around women seems to be tinged with dislike because they are judged by modern day standards. However by Westerosi standards Tyrion apparently treats Shae (and later Yaya) with a certain amount of concern for their wellbeing, which most men in his position wouldn't bother doing. I think we can assume from this that he treats the women he pays generously and with consideration. It's hardly unreasonable of him to give Shae his list of requirements in advance - after all this is a kind of job interview and she is entitled to know what she's getting herself into. As for his tone when he speaks to her, like you and others I got the impression that it was a bit of banter on both sides and on Tyrion's part at least, an added attraction.

Very much agree with both!

By the way in ADWD Theon says that some camp followers were passed from man to man, while others were following just one soldier, washing their clothes, cleaning their tents and doing some other minor tasks for them ("Some were hardened whores who could fuck twenty men in a night and drink them all blind. Others looked as innocent as maids, but that was just a trick of their trade. Some were camp brides, bound to the soldiers they followed with words whispered to one god or another but doomed to be forgotten once the war was done. They would warm a man's bed by night, patch the holes in his boots at morning, cook his supper come dusk, and loot his corpse after the battle. Some even did a bit of washing.")

So it's entirely reasonable for Tyrion to let Shae know what kind of arrangement he's interested in.

[Lummel]

...What Tywin failed to grasp is that not everything Tytos did he did wrong, there were some things Tytos did right that Tywin ends up doing wrong, namely being a caring, attentive father. He let himself be blinded by the glory of House Lannister and fail to attain to the needs of those within it. Confucius did say that the ruler's family was a microcosm of the kingdom. It comes to no surprise that Tywin's family later comes to resemble the Seven Kingdoms: divided against each other and filled with strife.

Before I forget I really like this Confucius point. That seems like a really good opening to think about the different family cultures and ruling styles of the various great houses.

The Tytos-Tywin relationship is also important. It's over compensating isn't it, the son striving to be everything that the father wasn't. The question is will Tyrion, or does Tyrion, react by building himself, shaping his personality in opposition to Tywin and modelling himself on Tytos or can he achieve some kind of healthier balance between the two extremes? Will circumstances force him to become more of a Tywin than Tywin himself?

[anonymouseuser]

Before I forget I really like this Confucius point. That seems like a really good opening to think about the different family cultures and ruling styles of the various great houses.

The Tytos-Tywin relationship is also important. It's over compensating isn't it, the son striving to be everything that the father wasn't. The question is will Tyrion, or does Tyrion, react by building himself, shaping his personality in opposition to Tywin and modelling himself on Tytos or can he achieve some kind of healthier balance between the two extremes? Will circumstances force him to become more of a Tywin than Tywin himself?

I think in the short term he might find himself having to channel his inner Tywin, but I'd be surprised if he then lived his life in the sole pursuit of power and reputation in the way his father has. That's assuming he gets to live by the end of it all.....

[Natalie_S]

I do agree that Shae herself is not particularly important here. Perhaps unlike you, I don't think she ever becomes that, either. Shae always remains the blank canvas Tyrion is projecting his wishes upon. She plays a part and she does it well. (It's not until Sansa comes into the picture Shae is threatened, either. Because Tyrion does the same with Sansa, to a degree. He projects his wishes of the little house and the white picket fence upon Sansa.)

I don't think either of them are blank canvas for him.

He does try to relive the emotions that he felt with Tysha, but he appreciates and is interested in different qualities of the women he's attracted to, he doesn't just project the same "template" on all of them: about Shae, he likes that she's witty, sassy and "wicked" as he says. He's drawn to Sansa's vulnerability and gentleness, while he's intrigued by Septa Lemore's mysteriousness and appreciates her sense of humour and company.

All these women are very different from one another, and in his POV it's quite clear that he's intrigued by different sides of their personalities.

I think that perhaps with Sansa it's more unclear because marriage is an institution and an experience that comes with expectation for almost anyone (and particularly for people that have already experienced it, like Tyrion). He already stated in ACOK that he wants, at some point, to be married and have heirs.

And when finds himself married with Sansa I think that more than projecting, for all the time he's painfully aware of the difference between his wishes and reality.

It's also interesting to note that neither Shae nor Sansa actually allow Tyrion to see much of their true personalities: for Sansa, who's very young, it's quite easy for him to see her depression and her revulsion for him, but Shae is more able and experienced in faking (and most of the time Tyrion is aware of it, but decides not to think about it, as he desperately need to hang on to the illusion of being loved back).