Can the Ironborn Be Challenged At Sea?

[Hamilton]

Stannis' fleet has been smashed and the royal fleet is in shambles. The Ironborn seem to be the dominant naval power currently. True they are currently split between Westeros and Essos. It still seems like a split Ironborn fleet is still more than anyone else has. Plus if Victarion can pull off bringing Dany home it will have been worth the risk. The Redwyne fleet is so far the only naval threat to them, but Paxter Redwyne does not seem to be the most competent commander. The only other power I can think of are the Manderlays, but they seem to use ships for merchant instead of battle purposes. Although I am sure Euron would defeat Redwyne in battle, he still has to keep his family at bay. Instability among the Greyjoys seem like the greatest threat to Ironborn supremacy.

[Michael Snow]

The Tyrells have access to a lot of naval power in the Redwyne fleet that you mentioned, I don't see why you're brushing them off like they're nothing. Paxter doesn't seem like a competent commander - does he not? I don't recall - so you disregard them altogether? Yeah, the Ironborn can be challenged at sea. The Royal Fleet smashed them in Balon's rebellion. They're better at sea than most anyone else it seems, but they could easily be challenged and quite possibly defeated in the right circumstances. Loras may have snuck off and is bringing the pain to those viking-esque reavers as we speak.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Stannis will have a fleet, either from Auran Waters or Braavos (or both). And there is the Redwyne Fleet. They'll got their ass kicked.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

One word: Stannis.

[Flig]

The Golden Company brought over quite a few ships IIRC, Stannis should be getting some ships soon (we hope), the Redwyne fleet should not be so easily brushed off, their may be a power struggle between Victarion and Euron that may further split the fleet, and Manderly has been building a LOT of fucking ships.

[Free Northman]

To emphasize the unique characteristics of each region, I would prefer it if the Ironborn are unmatched in terms of naval warfare, just like the North is unbeatable in Winter warfare, the Dornish in desert warfare and the Lannisters unmatched in wealth.

Each has their strengths and weaknesses.

[Rolex Baratheon]

The only thing challenging Ironborn supremacy? LOL. Many things challenge Ironborn supremacy. For example, Ironborn stupidity, Ironborn failure at fighting land battles, Ironborn failire at fighting sea battles too, apparently, despite being reknowned for good sailing, pathetic Ironborn sense of strategy if Balon was anything to go by and possible fighting between Vic and Euron's fleets.

Ironborn can never have supremacy over Westeros.

[Flig]

Free Northman: The problem with that is that the Ironborn have already proven that they aren't unmatched in naval warfare. Stannis smashed them once already. The Ironborn really just suck at most things to be honest.

[Ser Lepus]

Stannis defeated them during the first of Balon's rebellions. the Lannisters and Starks defeated them too, with the help of a fleet built by the Lannisters, during Dagon Greyjoy's rebellion, a hundred years ago, so yes, they can be defeated and have been defeated at sea.

You know I always find surprising the reaction of the westerosi to Dagon's Rebellion; the guy was ravaging all the western coast of the continent from Bear Island to the Arbor, but the regions that weren't directly affected by the reaving didn't get involved at all, and they kept fighting their petty feuds and organizing tourneys and generally living their normal lives, even the bannermen of the Tyrells that were far enough from the sea to not feel directly threatened. You would think that the Starks, Lannisters, Tullys and Tyrells would have called the banners, and ordered their vassals to protect the threatened regions.

[Free Northman]

Free Northman: The problem with that is that the Ironborn have already proven that they aren't unmatched in naval warfare. Stannis smashed them once already. The Ironborn really just suck at most things to be honest.

Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of the Ironborn. I dislike them intensely.

But it adds to the spice of the Ice and Fire world if these guys are pretty much acknowledged as the fiercest sea raiders around.

I don't know what strategic errors Victarrion made when Stannis defeated him, or what the comparative naval sizes were (the Iron Fleet is 100 ships strong while the royal fleet is probably significantly larger).

The point is, I don't think that Victarrions 100 ships of the Iron Fleet can be defeated by any other navy numbering 100 ships. But if they are outnumbered 2 to 1, then it's a different story.

Else the Ironborn really shouldn't exist anymore. They must have SOMETHING going for them.

[Michael Snow]

Stannis defeated them during the first of Balon's rebellions. the Lannisters and Starks defeated them too, with the help of a fleet built by the Lannisters, during Dagon Greyjoy's rebellion, a hundred years ago, so yes, they can be defeated and have been defeated at sea.

You know I always find surprising the reaction of the westerosi to Dagon's Rebellion; the guy was ravaging all the western coast of the continent from Bear Island to the Arbor, but the regions that weren't directly affected by the reaving didn't get involved at all, and they kept fighting their petty feuds and organizing tourneys and generally living their normal lives, even the bannermen of the Tyrells that were far enough from the sea to not feel directly threatened. You would think that the Starks, Lannisters, Tullys and Tyrells would have called the banners, and ordered their vassals to protect the threatened regions.

In Westeros as on Earth, you don't take on the expense, hassle, and risk of warfare unless you believe it's less expensive than not going to war. I'd imagine that the major houses wouldn't want to call banners and levy troops unless they were losing enough money as a result of the reaving to make the expense of war a better deal.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of the Ironborn. I dislike them intensely.

But it adds to the spice of the Ice and Fire world if these guys are pretty much acknowledged as the fiercest sea raiders around.

I don't know what strategic errors Victarrion made when Stannis defeated him, or what the comparative naval sizes were (the Iron Fleet is 100 ships strong while the royal fleet is probably significantly larger).

The point is, I don't think that Victarrions 100 ships of the Iron Fleet can be defeated by any other navy numbering 100 ships. But if they are outnumbered 2 to 1, then it's a different story.

Else the Ironborn really shouldn't exist anymore. They must have SOMETHING going for them.

The only good thing about them is Theon Greyjoy, and he isn't even really Ironborn stuff. Thankfully. Euron makes things interesting, eh.

[Michael Snow]

Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of the Ironborn. I dislike them intensely.

But it adds to the spice of the Ice and Fire world if these guys are pretty much acknowledged as the fiercest sea raiders around.

I don't know what strategic errors Victarrion made when Stannis defeated him, or what the comparative naval sizes were (the Iron Fleet is 100 ships strong while the royal fleet is probably significantly larger).

The point is, I don't think that Victarrions 100 ships of the Iron Fleet can be defeated by any other navy numbering 100 ships. But if they are outnumbered 2 to 1, then it's a different story.

Else the Ironborn really shouldn't exist anymore. They must have SOMETHING going for them.

Totally agreed. Ship for ship, they're supposed to be the best. But that wasn't the question or purpose of this topic. Can they be challenged at sea, not whether or not they're better sailers and naval warriors than any other single Westerosi region/culture/house. The answer to the OP is still yes, they can definitely be challenged at sea, and they will be.

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

Stannis defeated Victarion , but that does not mean he is a better commander ...we do not have many details about that fight

- the forces were equally matched ? We know the Ironborn were outnumber like 10 to 1 (at least from the show). If I command 10.000 men and the oponent has 1000 and I beat him that doesn't mean I am a better comander , I only have more troops.

I think the OP wanted to know the curent situation . Why do people bring stories from the past to analyse the curent situation . The naval force of Westeros is much weaker now in comparison to the rebelion period.

Also Ironborn are good at sailing and especially raiding (when they catch unprepared ships that transport perfumed boys).

We can't say who is the boss on the sea unless the forces face each other.

[Ser Lepus]

In Westeros as on Earth, you don't take on the expense, hassle, and risk of warfare unless you believe it's less expensive than not going to war. I'd imagine that the major houses wouldn't want to call banners and levy troops unless they were losing enough money as a result of the reaving to make the expense of war a better deal.

A feudal liege doesn't spend money when calling the banners, save the food for their soldiers and the fodder for their mounts; he doesn't have to pay them, since they have been already paid in advence with the land they own as lords. The bannermen themselves are under obligation to provide troops and pay them.

Dagon Greyjoy was ravaging the rich coastal regions or the Reach, and all the while the inland Reach lords were sitting on their hands. Lord Tyrell should have called the banners and have ordered them to fight.

[Free Northman]

Totally agreed. Ship for ship, they're supposed to be the best. But that wasn't the question or purpose of this topic. Can they be challenged at sea, not whether or not they're better sailers and naval warriors than any other single Westerosi region/culture/house. The answer to the OP is still yes, they can definitely be challenged at sea, and they will be.

Agreed.

[jarl the climber]

Stannis' fleet has been smashed and the royal fleet is in shambles. The Ironborn seem to be the dominant naval power currently. True they are currently split between Westeros and Essos. It still seems like a split Ironborn fleet is still more than anyone else has. Plus if Victarion can pull off bringing Dany home it will have been worth the risk. The Redwyne fleet is so far the only naval threat to them, but Paxter Redwyne does not seem to be the most competent commander. The only other power I can think of are the Manderlays, but they seem to use ships for merchant instead of battle purposes. Although I am sure Euron would defeat Redwyne in battle, he still has to keep his family at bay. Instability among the Greyjoys seem like the greatest threat to Ironborn supremacy.

Actually Redwyne participated in the battle of Fair Isle, he is an experienced commander and there is no reason to think that he is not competent or have competent people captianing his ships. Him and Euron are set to face off in the next book and Euron has sent his best ships off to Mereen. On the other hand Euron knows that Redwyne will in all likelyhood refit his ships at Oldtown after the long voyage around Dorne and then move against the Sheilds. This gives him the oppurtunity to set a trap.

If I was Redwyne I would bypass the Sheilds and invade the Iron Islands themselves which are probaly poorly defended at this point.This would force Euron to abandon the Reach and defend his own territory.

[JP Dayne]

it seems that the Vale stil have all its forces intact.

historically, as we have learned these past few weeks about how the Conquest went in those parts, their naval force is not to be trifled with.

[Ser Areo Mace]

Stannis in a rowboat>the Iron fleet

It is known.

The Manderly have a fleet of warships sitting at White Harbour waiting for Davos to he Rickon back and declare for Stannis. Davos will lead that fleet with whatever sellsails or braavosi ships Ser Justin Massey brings back and who knows what that Bastard of Dirftmark is up to.

[Michael Snow]

A feudal liege doesn't spend money when calling the banners, save the food for their soldiers and the fodder for their mounts; he doesn't have to pay them, since they have been already paid in advence with the land they own as lords. The bannermen themselves are under obligation to provide troops and pay them.

Dagon Greyjoy was ravaging the rich coastal regions or the Reach, and all the while the inland Reach lords were sitting on their hands. Lord Tyrell should have called the banners and have ordered them to fight.

I didn't say they had to pay their banners, only that it costs a lot of money to take on a war. Long term, too, when you pull men away from their work. Which you seem to agree with me on, so... yeah.