jblair Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I have absolutely no fucking idea why Westeros has continued to allow the Greyjoys to remain in power despite major rebellions and continual piracy. It makes zero sense to me. Their line should've been ended a hundred years ago and DEFINITELY more recently after they landed on Pyke. Why are the Seven Kingdoms such chumps in this respect when they are so hardcore with each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentyn Baratheon Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 You'd think with their track record with the Ironborn, the North would have at least a task force fleet in the west side of their shore, you can't really prevent the ironborn attacking your shore, but you can pretty much have enough muscle to show them that you're gonna f@@k with them, if they f@@k with you.And Port-Lannis well...you think they'd have spies, or at least regural patrols on the sea to keep an eye on them. For all we know, they didn't know, and did, jackshit.Plot Induced Stupidity runs high in this part of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceHenryris Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I have absolutely no fucking idea why Westeros has continued to allow the Greyjoys to remain in power despite major rebellions and continual piracy. It makes zero sense to me. Their line should've been ended a hundred years ago and DEFINITELY more recently after they landed on Pyke. Why are the Seven Kingdoms such chumps in this respect when they are so hardcore with each other?I agree completely. Even if Ned didn't want to build a "Stark" fleet, shouldn't the Lords Bear Island, with their abundance of trees, Torhen's Square and Deepwood Mott been allowed to build fleets to check the Ironborn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I agree completely. Even if Ned didn't want to build a "Stark" fleet, shouldn't the Lords Bear Island, with their abundance of trees, Torhen's Square and Deepwood Mott been allowed to build fleets to check the Ironborn?From what we know there have been two Greyjoy uprisings since the Conquest, not including this most recent one. Maintaining a large fleet (at least 50 ships or so) in a lightly populated area consistently to avoid such a situation would be a huge waste of resources. It makes more sense to let them raid when they rise up each time. Defeat them on land. Then find allies with a fleet or build your own and sail it around the continent. The Iron Fleet is a hundred warships strong, so keeping them at bay would require a significant number of ships as well. All to protect a region with no major city and no large trade hubs. It's much cheaper to allow them to raid for a year or two once a century and deal with it when it comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblair Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Which again leads me to ask: why not depose them before? They certainly could have, with little or no trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Which again leads me to ask: why not depose them before? They certainly could have, with little or no trouble.That one can only be chalked up to plot necessity. Robert was a very forgiving guy. But he didn't let everyone off the hook. Jon Connington was the only lord exiled after the Rebellion and knowing that the Greyjoys had risen before under the Targaryens as well Robert should have had no reason to keep Balon on the Seastone Chair. That being said, he should have also been content to know that the Iron Islands couldn't cause any trouble again for a longer time. And he should have been right. Again, only plot necessity allowed them to rise again 10 years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 From what we know there have been two Greyjoy uprisings since the Conquest, not including this most recent one. Maintaining a large fleet (at least 50 ships or so) in a lightly populated area consistently to avoid such a situation would be a huge waste of resources. It makes more sense to let them raid when they rise up each time. Defeat them on land. Then find allies with a fleet or build your own and sail it around the continent. The Iron Fleet is a hundred warships strong, so keeping them at bay would require a significant number of ships as well. All to protect a region with no major city and no large trade hubs. It's much cheaper to allow them to raid for a year or two once a century and deal with it when it comes up.The thing is, building a port at the Saltspear Bay would make a lot of sense. You could trade with Lannisport, Oldtown, the Arbor and the Shield Islands, sending wares upriver the Fever River to Moat Cailin (and the Kingsroad to Winterfell), and up other rivers to Barrowtown, Torrhen's Square, and the Ryswell's lands, which would have helped populate and enrich all those lands; I think that would be worth the cost of a building a galley fleet to protect the coast, but the Starks have allowed the ironborn to control those seas and ravage those coasts until depopulating them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 If anyone were to convince the Braavosi to enter the war, the Iron Fleet will be smashed into tinder. As it stands, most of their strength is in Essos, and the remainder should be easy pickings for the Redwyne fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 If anyone were to convince the Braavosi to enter the war, the Iron Fleet will be smashed into tinder. As it stands, most of their strength is in Essos, and the remainder should be easy pickings for the Redwyne fleet.Agreed. Unless the plot requires otherwise there is no reason that Redwyne shouldn't be able to smash the fleet that remains in the Reach. Even if the thousand ships that sailed wasn't an exaggeration the best hundred have left and the rest are at best longships, but mostly fishing boats, trading galleys and the like. They stand no chance against an actual fleet. It would be similar to the speculated confrontation between Iran and the US navy when Iran threatened to close the Straight of Hormuz. Lots of little boats trying to overwhelm much larger, better armed ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetrarch42 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 To emphasize the unique characteristics of each region, I would prefer it if the Ironborn are unmatched in terms of naval warfare, just like the North is unbeatable in Winter warfare, the Dornish in desert warfare and the Lannisters unmatched in wealth.Each has their strengths and weaknesses.I agree in your assessments except for that of the Iron Born ships. As I recall the Iron Fleet is mostly composed of longships, which are swift and manouverable - great for raids, but not proper warships. Aurane Water's dromonds, along with the galleys which make up the Redwyne, and Royal Fleets can outmatch them in open naval warfare as Stannis showed when he trapped Victarion during the first Greyjoy Rebellion.So yes, they do seem like they can be challenged at sea, but are more dangerous now than they've been in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Can the ironborn be challenged at sea?Dunno, ask Stannis.Stannis, Stannis, rhymes with The Mannis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblair Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 The thing is, building a port at the Saltspear Bay would make a lot of sense. You could trade with Lannisport, Oldtown, the Arbor and the Shield Islands, sending wares upriver the Fever River to Moat Cailin (and the Kingsroad to Winterfell), and up other rivers to Barrowtown, Torrhen's Square, and the Ryswell's lands, which would have helped populate and enrich all those lands; I think that would be worth the cost of a building galley fleet to protect the coast, but the Starks have allowed the ironborn to control those seas and ravage those coasts until depopulating them.Ssshhhh, I got my ass handed to me when I started a thread wondering about the possibility that despite 8000 years of Stark leadership, the North doesn't seem to have done very much after Winterfell/Wall./ runs away from Stark heresy hinting they may be less than the greatest thing ever created Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 That one can only be chalked up to plot necessity. Robert was a very forgiving guy. But he didn't let everyone off the hook. Jon Connington was the only lord exiled after the Rebellion and knowing that the Greyjoys had risen before under the Targaryens as well Robert should have had no reason to keep Balon on the Seastone Chair.Jon Connington was exiled during Robert's Rebellion. By Aerys. And Bob seemed to be generously forgiving guy to anyone not named Targaryen. (But yes, keeping Balon Greyjoy as the Lord of Pyke, instead of making a prize of it for one of the Crown's loyal vassals, seems plenty stupid.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Ssshhhh, I got my ass handed to me when I started a thread wondering about the possibility that despite 8000 years of Stark leadership, the North doesn't seem to have done very much after Winterfell/Wall.And you do remember that it was pointed to you that no other dynasty has accomplished even that much? Just checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblair Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 No other dynasty (except Dorne's 1000 years) has had even remotely that long to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 No other dynasty (except Dorne's 1000 years) has had even remotely that long to play with.What do you mean? The Lannisters ruled Casterly Rock since the Age of Heroes when Lann the clever tricked old lord Casterly out of his castle. The maintained their rule following the Andal invasion through marriage. The Arryns have ruled the Vale since the Andal invasion and have little to show for it. In general it's a stagnated society. Not much has happened since the glory days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 No other dynasty (except Dorne's 1000 years) has had even remotely that long to play with.Storm Kings. Lannisters. Gardeners. All of them track their lineage back to the Age of Heroes. Not to mention the nouveau riche, ruling for mere six millennia, like House Arryn or House Hoare. They had plenty of time. And still nowhere south of the Neck we have seen anything that could be compared to the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblair Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Yeah I read my post with embarrassment. Not sure if I was thinking at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Between the Titan (which actually defies physics, but we'll let GRRM slide on that since it seems based on the legends of the Colossus of Rhodes), the shipyard (I don't think you can manufacture a galley in a single day with modern equipment), and the aqueduct & fountains, Braavos appears to be a city of wonders, and it's less than a thousand years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Between the Titan (which actually defies physics, but we'll let GRRM slide on that since it seems based on the legends of the Colossus of Rhodes), the shipyard (I don't think you can manufacture a galley in a single day with modern equipment), and the aqueduct & fountains, Braavos appears to be a city of wonders, and it's less than a thousand years old.The part about a galley a day is obviously an exageration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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