Theory on Maggy's prophecy and new definition for 'Volanqar'

[ab aeterno]

Omg your right hahaha. I was just skimming too many posts at once

It happens! :)

[Black Wolf Smith]

Couldn't "The Little brother" be Loras if Cersei gets Margery killed?

Well since, neither of the older brothers have had much too do with anythng, and that Margery is younger then Loras, NO.

I want to point out something....

The Cersei and Jaime dying together is something that Cersei came up with, not prophecy. Jaime believed her, but I think even he has lost faith in it. Most of us know that Cersei is insane, so her coming up with something like this means nothing. Mel's prophecy while often wrong is way more legit then anything Cersei thinks. This is a women that took a Tyrion having said "turn to ash in your month" speach as a confession that he killed Joff.

While I think its Stannis, the only other person I could see it being the V is Benjen, but there are too many problems with that.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The Cersei and Jaime dying together is something that Cersei came up with, not prophecy.

I never said that it was prophecy, but that it was foreshadowing. Cersei herself doesn't have prophetic powers, obviously, but that doesn't mean that the words are meaningless.

[Maester Tormund]

You do make a good point, pay attention to the language. Maggy said the volanqar, or the little brother, but it's kind of vague. Who's little brother is she talking about? I think the prophecy could refer to someone getting revenge on the Lannisters from any situation in which they were involved.

1. Joffrey killed Ned Stark. Benjen is Ned's younger brother, so maybe he will one day break his NW vows and get revenge.

2. The Lannisters were involved in planning the Red Wedding in which Robb Stark was killed. Bran and Rickon are his younger brothers. Maybe one of them will lash out against the Lannisters.

3. Catelyn Stark/Tully also died at the Red Wedding. Maybe Brynden will face the Lannisters.

I still go with believing that the little brother could be someone in the religious order, septons and other members are often referred to as "brothers". I still hold that The Hound, if he is the grave digger, could be the killer whether through actually killing Cersei or by defeating Robert Strong in her trial.

2. I think stannis is still unlikely his arc is going in a different direction. There is absoultely no foreshadowing of him wanting to strangle cersei. The only clue is that the prediction is the little brother and not your little brother. I don't like that theory I think it was just the maegi's way of speaking she was foreign remember.

You are assuming that the maegi's way of speaking was part of her being foreign, we never see anyone else foreign speak like that. You are assuming something right there.

[Maester Tormund]

Well since, neither of the older brothers have had much too do with anythng, and that Margery is younger then Loras, NO.

I want to point out something....

The Cersei and Jaime dying together is something that Cersei came up with, not prophecy. Jaime believed her, but I think even he has lost faith in it. Most of us know that Cersei is insane, so her coming up with something like this means nothing. Mel's prophecy while often wrong is way more legit then anything Cersei thinks. This is a women that took a Tyrion having said "turn to ash in your month" speach as a confession that he killed Joff.

While I think its Stannis, the only other person I could see it being the V is Benjen, but there are too many problems with that.

Benjen could maybe be a possibility, but since he hasn't been seen since the first 150 pages of AGoT I highly doubt that we will see him show up to make it from beyond The Wall to King's Landing to kill Cersei.

I never said that it was prophecy, but that it was foreshadowing. Cersei herself doesn't have prophetic powers, obviously, but that doesn't mean that the words are meaningless.

If we took everything that characters said and believed in then we have no fear of Tyrion dying except if he's 80 in bed, with a cup of wine, and a whore giving him pleasure.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post as well

[ab aeterno]

It could be Aegon, assuming that he is Aegon. I think you could make the case- he is the younger brother of Rhaenys, and Maggy told Cersei that she would never marry Rhaegar, and she married Robert/became Queen because Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys and "Aegon" were killed, so there is that connection as well. IF Aegon is real he seems a better candidate than those characters located in the north atm IMO.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I never said that it was prophecy, but that it was foreshadowing. Cersei herself doesn't have prophetic powers, obviously, but that doesn't mean that the words are meaningless.

Very well, misunderstood what you and others said. I just don't hold anything that Cersei says as being either important, or based on anything other then her twisted mind came up with.

Ps. I really like your Pestilence line.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

If we took everything that characters said and believed in then we have no fear of Tyrion dying except if he's 80 in bed, with a cup of wine, and a whore giving him pleasure.

True enough. But when GRRM repeats the same sentiment multiple times, he's clearly drawing it to the reader's attention for a reason.

Ps. I really like your Pestilence line.

Thanks! I stole it from Al Smith, New York governor back in the 1920s and Democratic presidential candidate, who was denouncing William Randoplh Hearst. (I think originally it comes from the book of Psalms.)

[gogorath]

FACELESS MEN CANNOT KILL PEOPLE THEY KNOW. it CAN'T be arya. THAT'S CANON.

And there's no way Arya may lie about knowing someone? But in this case, I agree. Who it could technically be and who it is likely o be are different, and Arya doesn't seem that likely right now.

[gogorath]

OK....so let me explain this a little slower... "The valonquar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat..." The plural form was used, meaning both hands have sufficient flexibility to wrap around said throat.

I missed the part where Maggy said, "the valonquar shall wrap his good hand around your pale white throat, while pawing you with his golden stump, and choke the life out of you." How exactly do you expect Jaime to wrap a metal stump around anyone's throat?

It's not a stump, it's a golden hand. It can be part of choking -- it's not like it's some weird fake hand with no curve to it or formed in a closed fist or something.

I'm not sure why everyone is trying so hard on these things. Martin really isn't subtle in his foreshadowing. Most of the shocks were set up repeatedly, over and over. It's usually the obvious thing.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

OK....so let me explain this a little slower... "The valonquar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat..." The plural form was used, meaning both hands have sufficient flexibility to wrap around said throat.

It's a prophecy, and prophecies don't always depict events literally. Sansa didn't have purple serpents in her hair when she attended Joffrey's wedding. The sea never literally came to Winterfell.

[Lord Manwoody]

I really see no reason to doubt the meaning of the word "valonqar". There's no real evidence to suggest otherwise.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the word "valonqar" is Valyrian for "little brother". The whole foundation of this argument centers around Maggy the Frog's choice of word, "the" instead of "your". However, the word valonqar (little brother), doesn't have to mean Cersei's little brother. It seems to me it could mean any little brother. If you want to hone in on that word choice and formulate a theory around it, I think the most obvious would be this - if it suggests anything, to me it suggests that Cersei's demise will not come at the hands of her own siblings (Jaime and Tyrion), but rather some other valonqar.

[Davos' fingertip]

You do make a good point, pay attention to the language. Maggy said the volanqar, or the little brother, but it's kind of vague. Who's little brother is she talking about? I think the prophecy could refer to someone getting revenge on the Lannisters from any situation in which they were involved.

1. Joffrey killed Ned Stark. Benjen is Ned's younger brother, so maybe he will one day break his NW vows and get revenge.

2. The Lannisters were involved in planning the Red Wedding in which Robb Stark was killed. Bran and Rickon are his younger brothers. Maybe one of them will lash out against the Lannisters.

3. Catelyn Stark/Tully also died at the Red Wedding. Maybe Brynden will face the Lannisters.

i get what you're saying and it gives a lot of possibilities. But i just think that 'the' doesn't mean it can be absolutely any younger brother that is related to Cersei, 'The' would only be used if Maggy was talking about something related to what she had previously talked about in the paragraph, and she talked about Cersei and Robert's kids, which is why i think it makes more sense for her to use 'the volanqar 'the father'. I just think that its completely random to use 'the' for someone that is not related to anything she previously said.

[TyrionsFlagon]

A lot of GRRM prophesies seem confusing at first, but then they make total sense once they come true. I don't think that he would get too weird over a prophesy.

I say he keeps it simple, and it's either Tyrion or Jaime. I would love for it to be Tyrion and I would cheer. I would cry like a girl if it were Jaime. It just wouldn't be right to have anybody else kill her.

[Gaius the Builder]

Sorry if this has been mentioned; it didn't look like it when I skimmed through the thread.

Did Cersei or Jaime come first in the birth order? Yes, I know they're twins, but I mean literally who came out of the womb first. If Cersei came first, even though they're "twins," could that still make Jaime her "little brother" and ultimately the one to kill her in the prophecy? As far as I remember, she never actually says how she sees herself dying or who the killer is.

I apologize if this is silly or there's some reference in the series I didn't catch as to her actually seeing Tyrion kill her.

[ab aeterno]

Cersei was born first though Jaime was born moments later, clutching her heel. (From the wiki.)

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Cersei#History

As for Tyrion/Cersei's death, no. She assumes that the prophesy means Tyrion after she finds out the meaning of Valonquar, largely because she would never suspect Jaime capable of hurting her and she already resented Tyrion because their mother died birthing him, and because he was a dwarf.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

No she's older than jamie and she only heard the prophecy she never had a vision. Valonqar could be jamie or tyrion. Or any little brother but I think it fits he story better if its one of her siblings.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I still go with believing that the little brother could be someone in the religious order, septons and other members are often referred to as "brothers". I still hold that The Hound, if he is the grave digger, could be the killer whether through actually killing Cersei or by defeating Robert Strong in her trial.

You are assuming that the maegi's way of speaking was part of her being foreign, we never see anyone else foreign speak like that. You are assuming something right there.

Only I'm not ASSUMING. I know very well it could be wrong. I was making a point that she's foreign.

[Maester Tormund]

Only I'm not ASSUMING. I know very well it could be wrong. I was making a point that she's foreign.

I don't know how you define what an "assumption" is but when someone says "I think it was just the maegi's way of speaking she was foreign remember.", well that sounds like assuming that because a woman is foreign we should disregard the "the" placed before the word "volanquar". That "the" makes a very big difference.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I thought it was Tyrion because literature is full of people making prophecy happen by acting to prevent it (starting with a guy named Oedipus I believe) and he kind of deserves to get her after all she put him through. ;) Jamie would have to put her in a choke hold with his gold hand. HEY! Maybe Jamie can hold her down while Tyrion rapes her(like he said he wants to do in ADWD) & wind up squeezing to hard!! (I know...demented!)