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Theory on Maggy's prophecy and new definition for 'Volanqar'


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Just for fun...

...the little brother means Tommen. UnTommen will kill Cersei when she drowns his kittens in a fit of madness.

On a more serious note:

Cersei's second question is along the lines of "Will I be queen?" and Maggy's answer "Yes, until another queen, younger and more beautiful, comes to cast you down and takes everything you hold dear." These aren't the actual quotes by-the-by, the quotation marks are just to show someone is speaking, but IIRC it's close and I don't have my book at hand.

So could we be looking for this younger queen's little brother to fulfill the role of valonqar?

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Are you are thinking Marg, and Loras? he is older then she is.

Dany doesn't have a younger brother.

And it is just crack pot if you think Sansa is going to be Queen.

*Shrugs*

I don't know who'll be the younger queen or the valonqar. But the speculation is the fun part until we get our answers. Sure, most likely candidates are Tyrion, Jamie and maybe Stannis.

But a lot of people seem to think Jon is Dany's younger brother.

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Is anybody able to confirm if "valonquar" literally translates to "little brother"? Specifically, whether the term means little as in "younger"? I only ask because if it in fact means little as in "small", referring to size as opposed to age (though often the two are not mutually exclusive), "valonquar" might then directly translate to "small brother". This clears up the notion of it being her younger brother, where she has two younger brothers. "The younger brother" could mean either Jaime or Tyrion, as well as any number of other characters, whereas "the small brother" is a more direct way of implying Tyrion, as he's.. well.. small.

Regarding the use of "the" as opposed to "your"... it might just be my own linguistic preference, but it seems to me that saying "the small brother" makes sense in this context, because it distinguishes between Jaime and Tyrion in the only way that you really can with regards to Cersei. "The younger brother" is a distinction as well, in that Tyrion is Jaime's younger. It seems possible and even likely to me that the reason why Maggy doesn't specify "your" is because she is assuming it is obvious she is talking about Cersei's brothers. Thus, saying "the" is a means of discriminating between the two brothers that she has, ie., we might say the implied phrasing is: "of your brothers, the valonquar (the little brother, or, the small one, or the younger one, whatever your preference may be, the result is still the same) will strangle you, titles, titles, titles..."

Personally, I'm more a fan of having Arya kill Cersei, and would even more happily accept Cersei dying only figuratively and not literally, but in terms of the wording of the prophecy, I think that Tyrion does still make sense. I don't think Tyrion will actually kill Cersei, but I do think that the constant argument of "Tyrion won't kill Cersei because it's too obvious" is slightly tired. Tyrion is the obvious choice, and seeing as almost everyone here suffers from a chronic propensity to overthink (I call forth the years people spent trying to figure out what the "single word" Brienne shouted was...), I'm not so sure that going with the obvious is such a bad idea if GRRM is looking to shock.

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Ok, how's this while I'm on a stark raving mad roll:

Tyrek is the valonqar. He's actually Tywin's bastard son from a former secret whore mistress. Thats why Tywin was so concerned about finding him once he reached KL. Tygett just passed him off as his own son to spare Tywin losing face. So Tyrek is Cercei's little brother and will eventually rise against her.

Ok, that really was due to tiredness. :) G'night, all.

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Regarding the use of "the" as opposed to "your"... it might just be my own linguistic preference, but it seems to me that saying "the small brother" makes sense in this context, because it distinguishes between Jaime and Tyrion in the only way that you really can with regards to Cersei. "The younger brother" is a distinction as well, in that Tyrion is Jaime's younger. It seems possible and even likely to me that the reason why Maggy doesn't specify "your" is because she is assuming it is obvious she is talking about Cersei's brothers. Thus, saying "the" is a means of discriminating between the two brothers that she has, ie., we might say the implied phrasing is: "of your brothers, the valonquar (the little brother, or, the small one, or the younger one, whatever your preference may be, the result is still the same) will strangle you, titles, titles, titles..."

That's quite possible, though I'm inclined to think that GRRM used "the" rather than "your" for a reason, even if that reason was just to throw people off the scent, like this. Considering the basic issues around prohpesy- that assuming the character understands it often causes their downfall in itself, I wouldn't like to assume that "the" just distinguishes between Jaime and Tyrion. Also, considering that Valyrian seems to be a language somewhat similar to latin in terms of how it is used/translated, I would hesitate to draw any conclusion even from "small," "smaller," "younger," or any of the other possible permutationsl, because linguistically it would likely have different meanings depending on the context.

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Apologies if this has been stated before (as this is my first post), but perhaps the valonqar is a wight version of Jaime / Tyrion. I honestly think that might be the most likely circumstances under which either of them would kill Cersei (especially Jaime). I understand that Jaime's perspective on Cersei has shifted over the past three books, but I think it is a stretch to say he would murder her in cold blood at this point. Him, or Tyrion for that matter, being a wight certainly would make it easier for this prophecy to come to fruition.

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Apologies if this has been stated before (as this is my first post), but perhaps the valonqar is a wight version of Jaime / Tyrion. I honestly think that might be the most likely circumstances under which either of them would kill Cersei (especially Jaime). I understand that Jaime's perspective on Cersei has shifted over the past three books, but I think it is a stretch to say he would murder her in cold blood at this point. Him, or Tyrion for that matter, being a wight certainly would make it easier for this prophecy to come to fruition.

It has already been brought up, but that dosn't mean it's not still a valid point of discussion. Personally, I think it is unlikely, Jaime wouldn't kill her in cold blood, but he might kill her if she is about to do something crazy, like Aerys did. As for Tyrion, I can't imagine any way he ends up as a wight, though he wouldn't need any more reason to kill her. If it is Tyrion, I suspect it will be indirectlyl based upon her hatred and hunting of Tyrion, rather than him just killing her/having her killed. So many people have a motive nowadays, so many are younger brothers!

Heck, if the Tyrells kill her due to all the distrust in KL, they have lots of younger brothers, both to Margaery and to Mace. That would all fit.

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The other thing that I find rather striking about it is that Cersei's death is said to be by the valonquar's strangulation of her with his/her/their bare hands. I feel like this is far too intimate a killing for either Jaime or Tyrion to commit because it takes too much time. While both characters have an abundance of hate for Cersei, I think it would be out of character for them to kill her in this way because of the way that these characters have interacted in the past. Cersei is the love of Jaime's life, and Tyrion and Cersei's relationship, while incredibly cruel, has showed a number of instances where they seem on the verge of understanding each other in a way that you almost think could turn into a proper brother-sister relationship if it was given time and the right circumstances. To have either of them strangle Cersei as she stares up at them struggling to preserve her miserable life... I don't think that either of them is capable of that kind of cruelty, even if they do hate her. The only death I can see either dealing to her is a quick, clean one in a moment of anger, like an axe to the back of the head, or a sword through the belly. Strangulation requires a certain level of insanity and inhumanity that neither Tyrion nor Jaime possess, though I suppose this could be remedied by either becoming wights.

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The other thing that I find rather striking about it is that Cersei's death is said to be by the valonquar's strangulation of her with his/her/their bare hands. I feel like this is far too intimate a killing for either Jaime or Tyrion to commit because it takes too much time. While both characters have an abundance of hate for Cersei, I think it would be out of character for them to kill her in this way because of the way that these characters have interacted in the past. Cersei is the love of Jaime's life, and Tyrion and Cersei's relationship, while incredibly cruel, has showed a number of instances where they seem on the verge of understanding each other in a way that you almost think could turn into a proper brother-sister relationship if it was given time and the right circumstances. To have either of them strangle Cersei as she stares up at them struggling to preserve her miserable life... I don't think that either of them is capable of that kind of cruelty, even if they do hate her. The only death I can see either dealing to her is a quick, clean one in a moment of anger, like an axe to the back of the head, or a sword through the belly. Strangulation requires a certain level of insanity and inhumanity that neither Tyrion nor Jaime possess, though I suppose this could be remedied by either becoming wights.

It is only the show, but Stannis almost strangled Mel in the series...

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Personally, my money is on the strangulating thing being far more metaphorical than literal. Maybe the situation in King's Landing will "strangle her" as it gets more and more out of control and everyone closes in on her. The sea coming to WF is the obvious example of this, and it worked really well IMO. I think it would be well used with this prophesy too.

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The other thing that I find rather striking about it is that Cersei's death is said to be by the valonquar's strangulation of her with his/her/their bare hands. I feel like this is far too intimate a killing for either Jaime or Tyrion to commit because it takes too much time. While both characters have an abundance of hate for Cersei, I think it would be out of character for them to kill her in this way because of the way that these characters have interacted in the past. Cersei is the love of Jaime's life, and Tyrion and Cersei's relationship, while incredibly cruel, has showed a number of instances where they seem on the verge of understanding each other in a way that you almost think could turn into a proper brother-sister relationship if it was given time and the right circumstances. To have either of them strangle Cersei as she stares up at them struggling to preserve her miserable life... I don't think that either of them is capable of that kind of cruelty, even if they do hate her. The only death I can see either dealing to her is a quick, clean one in a moment of anger, like an axe to the back of the head, or a sword through the belly. Strangulation requires a certain level of insanity and inhumanity that neither Tyrion nor Jaime possess, though I suppose this could be remedied by either becoming wights.

Well, Tyrion did strangle Shae to death, so I don't see it as that out of character for him.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I agree, for all we know it could be any younger brother, though obviously some are more likely than others. I've heard it suggested that the valonquar could be genderless in Valyrian similarly to the word for prince, though I've not seen any evidence for that. Personally, I think that the amount of time Cersei has spent blaming and hating Tyrion because she believes him to the the valonquar almost guarantees that it won't be him. Jaime seems well set up to be such, but I think it would work better if it weren't her little brother.

So you think it's Arya?

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