Theory on Maggy's prophecy and new definition for 'Volanqar'

[noratorious]

Ok - first post. I didn't make it through the whole thread, but the first comment that started this train of thought made me focus in on two things: All three of the children will die, and sometime after that a younger brother will strangle Cersei. This is far-fetched, I know, but what if Tommen becomes reanimated as a wight and strangles Cersei? Winter is coming after all...

I still think Jaime is the most likely valonqar, but I still find it hard to envision him strangling Cersei. That's such a personal and emotional way to kill someone. I would find it more likely for him to lash out at her with one strike/blow that accidentally kills her.

I just have this scene in my head now where somehow Tommen ends up being killed in the woods by some unknown cause - it's assumed to be bandits because the people of KL don't believe in the others yet, despite the growing shouts of terror from the North - his body is in the sept and Cersei is crying over it, Tommen rises, Cersei is horrified, he strangles her, and that heralds the arrival of wights/others in KL.

[JLE]

Another possible younger (youngest?) brother who may have cause to hate Cersei?

Ser Loras Tyrell. He is the youngest of Mace Tyrell's three sons, and the elder brother of Margaery - who can probably be identified as the younger / better looking one who will win everything that Cersei loses.

And Loras has lost his looks as a result of Cersei's wars (and his own impetuosity). He may well recover, though: but who knows how he will act if Cersei tries to act against Margaery?

[Starkbringer]

Jamie is my guess, but the Kettlebecks have reason to kill her too. She cause one of them to be tortured in the Great Sept. I can't remeber which one. Older or younger.

[Wind is a word]

Cersei:''Will the king and i have children?''

Maggy:''Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.''

Maggy: ''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the volanqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

This is what I essentially see Maggy as saying: "You will have three children and... the younger brother will kill you."

By saying "the younger brother", in the immediate context of describing Cersei's children, it makes it seem (to me at least, imho) that Maggy is referring to the little brother of Cersei's children, namely, Tommen.

It seems very odd that one would say "the younger brother" to name a random person (who happens be the younger brother of a random or the person you're talking to) when you haven't already described a set of children from which a younger brother can be identified, let alone when you've identified a completely different set of children only seconds before. That's why i don't think the phrasing fits with jaime, tyrion, sandor or any other male (or female if we want to accept valyrian=gender neutral) in westeros who happens to have an older sibling. To me, the phrasing only seems to fit with Tommen,

With that said, Maggy's an odd woman spouting crazy prophecies so its quite possible that she's talking like a retard (and of course GRRM can be misdirecting like the troll that he is :P). Also, it seems quite retarded that Tommen's little fat hands could strangle Cersei anytime soon, unless we accept that Tommen will be a wight.

So yeah. I'm not sure. But my immediate instinct the second I read the prophecy for the first time in AFFC was "Shit. Tommen will kill Cersei?!"

[Kasporio]

Wights are not stronger than regular humans. They just never tire.

I'm a huge fan of Tyrion plans of revenge as he told it to the widow of the waterfront.

Damn, Cersei would deserve it.

But we have no idea how many years the storyline will continue. Myrcella could died giving birth (she's ten now but before the end of the novels she could be 13) or fall from horse, Tommen of a disease or in a riot.

[Kasporio]

Sorry double post.

"the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Could it means that Cersei will be killed from an order of a ruling hand of the king ?

Kevan named Mace Tyrell Hand of the king. Even if Kevan died and Cersei becomes Queen regent again, she could not dispose of Mace easily, and he could either have her assassinated or legally executed.

Ok the prophecie says hands, but prophecies are unclear. And the hand symbol is a chain of golden hands.

Choke the life from you : would mean strangulation or hanging. Nobles are usually beheaded, but Mace could sentence Cersei to be hanged to humiliate her further, as it's a death penalty for lowborn and thieves.

[Nymeria Targaryen]

"the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Could it means that Cersei will be killed from an order of a ruling hand of the king ?

Kevan named Mace Tyrell Hand of the king. Even if Kevan died and Cersei becomes Queen regent again, she could not dispose of Mace easily, and he could either have her assassinated or legally executed.

Ok the prophecie says hands, but prophecies are unclear. And the hand symbol is a chain of golden hands.

Choke the life from you : would mean strangulation or hanging. Nobles are usually beheaded, but Mace could sentence Cersei to be hanged to humiliate her further, as it's a death penalty for lowborn and thieves.

Why should Mace have Cersei executed?

Lady Stoneheart is quite fond of hanging people, but unCat and her nice little gang are not that close...

Does Varys have any older sibling?

[The Lady Raven]

I completely agree. Ever since reading the chapter where Jaime burns Cersei's letter, I've been certain that he's the valonqar, not Tyrion. Also, Tyrion is halfway around the world by now, and although he hates his sister's guts, I always felt like they were more alike then they'd like to be, so I don't think he would go so far as to kill her.

[grod823]

I think that the prophecy has always meant Jaime as the "valonquar". GRRM has built up the deterioration of the relationship between Cersei and Jaime since he returned to King's Landing.

[SerSeymoreThyme]

I think it refers to Jamie, I could see him taking a fatal wound somehow and choking the life out of Cersei as he dies so they can go together, like he always thought they would. That being said I think that the younger, more beautiful queen referred to in the same prophecy will be Sansa, which could make the valonquar Arya

[Mayura]

As some of you already stated it here, strangulation is often used by murderes when they have a specific link with the victim. It often occurs in passion or hatred crimes.

Hence, I think the person who will be the valonqar is also someone who truly hates Cersei. Which, of course, leads in a logical way to Tyrion or Jaime. Arya would be quite a good candidate too, but I don't think she will have her hands on Cersei, she is training to be a facelessman and thus cannot kill someone she knows, and I also don't see why anyone would hire an expensive faceless man to kill Cersei while she is already out of the Game of Thrones.

Edit: I forgotto add this detail, but usually, death by strangulation is performed by a man on a woman because bare-hand strangulation requires the murderer to be physisally stronger than the victim. So I think this tends to rules Arya out and I have no clue whether Tyrion shows a great physical strenght?

I think the most logical valonqar is Jaime. To my opinion, Cersei's plots or acts will be the cause of Tommen's death. Cersei has been power hungry and as she is now clearly out of the picture for being queen regent, the situation doesn't sound bright for King Tommen: his mother is facing trial, his uncle was killed by Varys and he is now at the hands of the Tyrells. The Tyrells of course don't have any specific vendetta against Tommen himself, but I remember they killed Joffrey and Tommen will end up being a collateral dammage. I can see the Tyrells killing him now that he is left without Lannister protection (he is very much expandable) while Mace Tyrell seizes the Iron Throne on behalf of Aegon Targaryen (as they are Targ loyalists and remember, Viserys believed house Tyrell would join him in battle when he would land in Westeros). [anyway, i think the Tyrells and Littlefinger plotted the fall of the Lannisters since Littlefinger was sent to negociate the alliance between Margaery and Joffrey, but that is another discussion :)] OR, as it also has been stated, I wouldn't be too surprised if, when she will hear the coming of Aegon, Cersei will kill Tommen before he falls in the hands of the enemy...

So I think after the death of Tommen and probably Myrcella (she is at the hands of the Dornish who are as well Targ loyalists), Cersei will turn completely crazy. I imagine that Jamie seeing that and recognising she had a very big part to play in the death of their children (after all, it is because of all her schemes that the Lannisters fell so quickly) will choke her to death.

That seems the most logical solution to me if I take into account everything that happened until now.

But I also wondered numerous times if "valonqar" is indeed supposed to point towards a specific person or if it is just meant to portray death taking Cersei as she will die of sadness? Of course, when Cersei asks the meaning of "valoqar" and she discovers it means "little brother", she immediately suspects Tyrion. But what if it had other less specific meanings? Like the figurative embodiment of death that comes to take you? But this of course, is just a thought I had :)

[Har!]

OK....so let me explain this a little slower... "The valonquar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat..." The plural form was used, meaning both hands have sufficient flexibility to wrap around said throat.

I missed the part where Maggy said, "the valonquar shall wrap his good hand around your pale white throat, while pawing you with his golden stump, and choke the life out of you." How exactly do you expect Jaime to wrap a metal stump around anyone's throat?

Didn't Tyrion strangle Shae with his 'hands' - his necklace of golden hands?

I could see something similar with regards to Cersei. That sort of twist would be right in GRRM's wheelhouse.

So in sum I don't think Jaime's hand deficit is really that big of a hurdle. If anything it would make the eventual outcome all the more surprising.

Cersei has been dying to make Jaime her hand and commanders of the Kingsguard have been hands before (not often, but it has happened iirc).

Of course Jaime has to survive Lady Stoneheart...

[laughing tree knight]

i havent read every post so if this was said forgive me. but could it still be little brother. They were twins. Cercei and Jamie but one had to come out first. my guess it was Cercei and thus making Jamie a younger brother. or maybe it means father. but either way i would like to see jamie kill cercei.

[DExit]

i havent read every post so if this was said forgive me. but could it still be little brother. They were twins. Cercei and Jamie but one had to come out first. my guess it was Cercei and thus making Jamie a younger brother. or maybe it means father. but either way i would like to see jamie kill cercei.

Jamie came out holding cersei's heel, so he is her younger brother and suspect nr ? but very high in this thread ;)

[The Bastard of Walton]

I think the volanqar is Jaime, To obvious that its Tyrion. I dont believe Tommen & Myrcella will die. the drowning of tears could be the tears she shed for Joffrey.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Spoiler Below from ADWD

This is taken from Cersei's walk of shame POV. She is about to go outside the Sept to make her walk of shame. As the morning has progressed various people have interacted with her and in her mind Cersei is thinking about what revenge she will take on each one of them. She is in the Hall of Lamps with a dozen Warrior's Sons.

There the captain knelt before her. " Cersei's gaze swept across the faces of the men behind him. And there he was: Lancel her cousin, Ser Kevan's son, who had once professed to love her, before he decided that he loved gods more. MY BLOOD and my BETRAYER. She would not forget him.

I think Lancel is the youngest son of Kevin Lanister. Moreover Lancel in his relationship with Cersei admitted that he wanted to be like Jaimie.

Kevin Lannister chides Cersei for the damage she has done to his son emotionally. Lancel has told the High Septon many of Cersei's secrets and he now has renounced his marriage and joined the Warrior's sons.

Cersei wants to make him pay for his betrayel and with Kevin now dead..I can see many issues arising in the Red Keep with Cersei taking contol again in the chaos of Pycelle and Kevin's death. I think Lancel is un-sound in mind and spirit as a character now due to Cersei and I do think he will be the volanqar.

One other reason I believe this is because George writes similarities in many characters. Tyrion killed Shae using GOLDEN HANDS. Jaimie now has a golden hand, but would George really make it that simple? I think not. I think Lancel is the little brother who will do the deed. A war or conflict is brewing between the Warrior's Sons and the Red Keep.

Cersei reminds me of the mad king who became more deranged after his being kept a prisoner in Duskendale. Cersei has also been a prisoner and I think she has descended into total revenge mode.

[lcd52]

It can also mean a "brother" of the faith. I don't know how tall the little sparrow who became High Septon is, but I imagine once Ser Robert Strong gets Cersei off, he's going to have a lot of reasons to strangle her.

There is also Rickon Stark. A wild child with a lot of anger and a lot of losses, mostly thanks to Cersei. (Shaggy might have to help, though.)

[Black Wolf Smith]

I think the volanqar is Jaime, To obvious that its Tyrion. I dont believe Tommen & Myrcella will die. the drowning of tears could be the tears she shed for Joffrey.

Its BAMF Stannis.

[Dennace]

Well a new Queen younger and more beautiful is set to come along, likely to be Sansa. It could be Bran/Rickon that kills her (Or even Arya as she has spent a large amount of time being referred to as a boy and is currently being trained as an assassin).

Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

And when your tears have drowned you, the little brother shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

It seems like something so incredibly simple that most people would disregard it completely or overlook it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Well a new Queen younger and more beautiful is set to come along, likely to be Sansa. It could be Bran/Rickon that kills her (Or even Arya as she has spent a large amount of time being referred to as a boy and is currently being trained as an assassin).

Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

And when your tears have drowned you, the little brother shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

It seems like something so incredibly simple that most people would disregard it completely or overlook it.

it could be anyone!!! Little brother could be Cersei's little brother, or anyone she knows little brother., or a brother from the night watch. It literally could be anyone.