How good was Rhaegar's fighting skills?

[Ariane Martell]

How good was he silver prince fighting skills? We know that he lost for Robert, but Robert in the early years was one of the best fighters, plus Robert was very motivated. However Rhaegar won from young Barristan, the Bald in the Harrenhall tourney, therefor he must definitely be good with a sword. But how much? I personally don't think Rhaegar was better than Barristan, a single fight doesn't proof much, I also don't think he would beat Arthur Dayne. But Rhaegar probably trained frequently with them what might made him good. And he once thought he could be TPTWP, I doubt he would have such hopes if he wasn't at least decent, thought we can't really trust a Targaryen perspective on themselves.

Does anybody know exactly his abilities? Maybe, something I missed from the books?

[Sevumar]

Barristan is probably a little bit biased, but he says, "the Prince of Dragonstone was a most puissant warrior," and then goes on to say that he was a decent jouster, but didn't really care much for tournaments. It wasn't anything he put a big emphasis on.

He started training rather young, if a bit later than most noble-born children, but there seems to be a consensus that when he pursued something, Rhaegar was very focused. Because he probably felt motivated by his studies of prophecy, it seems reasonable to think that he trained very intensely to prepare himself for whatever role he imagined he'd play in fulfillment of his prophetic studies.

From later in the exchange mentioned above:

Go on,” she urged. “You may speak freely to me.”

“As you command.” The old man leaned upon his hardwood staff, his brow furrowed. “A warrior without peer ... those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles.”

“Swords win battles,” Ser Jorah said bluntly. “And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one.”

Barristan and Jorah seem to agree that Rhaegar was very capable and very dangerous, but he probably did not see actual combat until Robert's Rebellion.

[Lord commander_Snow]

he was described has being excellent at everything he tried at

[Arkantos]

Well he badly injured Robert in their duel, so he was certainly very good.

[pig]

Not good enough, obviously.

[TheZone]

Another one of these huh? He was decant , when fighting for something almost unstoppable but Robert had more inspiration and strength.

[Queen Cersei I]

Baristan noted to Dany that unlike Robert, Rhaegar did not seem naturally disposed to fighting. He was very bookish until age 17, when he read something that convinced him he had to be a warrior. Then he began training and, according to Selmy, "He excelled in it, as was his way." (This is not an exact quote, but it was pretty close to what Selmy says.)

As someone else noted, Selmy indicates that Rhaegar participated in some tourneys, and notes a few in which Rhaegar got second or third place. Dany doesn't want to hear about anyone beating Rhaegar, and asks which ones he won. Baristan points out that Rheagar won "the greatest tourney of them all," at Harrenhal. (Where we know, he met Lyanna, who may have been the Knight of the Laughing tree.)

Personally, I think it sounds as though Rhaegar was very competent with a sword, a good jouster, and an overall very good fighter. Selmy, for instance, notes that his love of reading made people initially suspect he'd grow up weak, but then he proved them otherwise at 17 when he started training as a warrior.

Overall, Rhaegar sounds like a very good, but not "peerless" fighter. He lost at the Trident, of course, but he lost to Robert Baratheon, one of the greatest warriors of the day whose strength, we're told, was legendary. Rhaegar apparently gave king bob quite a fight (Ned notes that they fought for some time) and he managed to seriously wound him.

Overall, I'd say that Rhaegar was a very skilled fighter.

What I find most intriguing is not his level of skill (I think from the beginning Baristan has noted that Rhaegar was skilled in that area), but the fact that by his words and actions prior to the Trident, he seemed to have believed that him winning was a done deal. (He said to Jaime, "When I return, I'll call a counsel," etc.) How and why was he so sure he was going to win against Robert, a very angry man with a very heavy grudge who just so happened to be one of the greatest, strongest warriors of his day? GRRM also has noted (I think) that Rhaegar sought out king bob for single combat. What made Rhaegar so sure of victory? Some plan? (Given everything we've heard about him from everyone save the jealous and embittered king bob, foul play seems rather unlikely, but I guess we shouldn't rule it out entirely.) Confidence in his own fighting skills? A determination to win for Lyanna? Targ hubris? The knowledge that he was the better man, and that good would surely triumph? (If so, the poor bastard sure was in the wrong series.) Sheer dumb luck?

Overall, Rhaegar’s actions pre duel with Robert have always struck me as strange…what we know of his last words and actions suggest a man very confident in his own survival, but how would he have been so sure of this?

[Mumatil]

He got a hammer in the chest.

Was it his first battle? If so, not well, maybe a decent tourney knight but if the former were the only real battle, not damn well.

[FaSome]

From the pieces here and there that rhaegar is mentioned we can assume that he was among the elite. My rule for when matching elite vs elite comes from barristan when he basically said "there are hundreds of factors to how and why x beats y in a fight." Seeing as rhaegar met robert in a actual war who knows what might of or might not of happened. I do know barristan wouldnt praise his skill with a bade just because he liked him.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Overall, Rhaegar’s actions pre duel with Robert have always struck me as strange…what we know of his last words and actions suggest a man very confident in his own survival, but how would he have been so sure of this?

Because his prophecies indicated otherwise, or so he believed. Surely this "rebellion" would just be a minor obstacle on his way to his destiny.

[Independent George]

Rhaegar strikes me as a gifted athlete who's always looked at martial skills intellectually and abstractly rather than a means of survival. In modern terms, he'd be the newly-minted army officer who'd been a wrestler in college, and has yet to step into the field. He's got the training and he's got the skill, but until he actually goes through the chaos and terror of combat, he really doesn't know everything.

[The Promised Prince]

Rhaegar was good, I don't think he's elite, he's just good. Nothing exceptional. He's not gifted he was just surrounded by the best tutors in town: Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Barristan Selmy, Jon Darry, Lewyn Martell, Oswell Whent. These guys aren't pushovers and are considered one of the finest batches of Kingsguard ever. They might not tutor him but they'd give him advice and suggestions, tricks etc. Plus Rhaegar has access to every training equipment he'll need. All these factors plus his motivation made him good but not even near legendary. Even Samwell Tarly could learn being a champion if given the same privileges received by Rhaegar.

[James Arryn]

There is absolutely no evidence to indicate Rhaegar was anything but elite/excellent, and all kinds to indicate he was.

Barristan disputes 2 points only: that Rhaegar was incomparable, and that he won innumerable tourneys. The former because he says among the elite too many little things decide a victory, so no one is so good that the others can't compare, and the latter because Rhaegar simply wasn't a tourney jock. He rarely entered...but when he did, he was almost invariably among the finalists, and that's a record that compares favorably with anyone.

I don't get where people think Barristan is saying Rhaegar was just ok or pretty good or w/e. He explicity says otherwise, as does everyone else.

[James Arryn]

Rhaegar was good, I don't think he's elite, he's just good. Nothing exceptional. He's not gifted he was just surrounded by the best tutors in town: Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Barristan Selmy, Jon Darry, Lewyn Martell, Oswell Whent. These guys aren't pushovers and are considered one of the finest batches of Kingsguard ever. They might not tutor him but they'd give him advice and suggestions, tricks etc. Plus Rhaegar has access to every training equipment he'll need. All these factors plus his motivation made him good but not even near legendary. Even Samwell Tarly could learn being a champion if given the same privileges received by Rhaegar.

That's simply not true...if anything, the reverse is true. Not because the opportinity wasn't there...as you outline, it was...but because we specifically know that Rhaegar did NOT undertake the years and years of training that almost all his contemporaries went through.

That's the whole point about Rhaegar, that's why he's considered a prodigy. Because he came to it VERY late...ie had much LESS training than most other knights his age...and excelled.

Think Hakeem Olajuwon.

[Commander Jon Snow]

Rhaeger seemed to be good in practice or preseason. Problem is he retired with a 0-1 or a losing record when it counted

[James Arryn]

Rhaeger seemed to be good in practice or preseason. Problem is he retired with a 0-1 or a losing record when it counted

So in any given fight there can be only one elite fighter?

[Alia of the knife]

Baristan noted to Dany that unlike Robert, Rhaegar did not seem naturally disposed to fighting. He was very bookish until age 17, when he read something that convinced him he had to be a warrior. Then he began training and, according to Selmy, "He excelled in it, as was his way." (This is not an exact quote, but it was pretty close to what Selmy says.)

As someone else noted, Selmy indicates that Rhaegar participated in some tourneys, and notes a few in which Rhaegar got second or third place. Dany doesn't want to hear about anyone beating Rhaegar, and asks which ones he won. Baristan points out that Rheagar won "the greatest tourney of them all," at Harrenhal. (Where we know, he met Lyanna, who may have been the Knight of the Laughing tree.)

Personally, I think it sounds as though Rhaegar was very competent with a sword, a good jouster, and an overall very good fighter. Selmy, for instance, notes that his love of reading made people initially suspect he'd grow up weak, but then he proved them otherwise at 17 when he started training as a warrior.

Overall, Rhaegar sounds like a very good, but not "peerless" fighter. He lost at the Trident, of course, but he lost to Robert Baratheon, one of the greatest warriors of the day whose strength, we're told, was legendary. Rhaegar apparently gave king bob quite a fight (Ned notes that they fought for some time) and he managed to seriously wound him.

Overall, I'd say that Rhaegar was a very skilled fighter.

What I find most intriguing is not his level of skill (I think from the beginning Baristan has noted that Rhaegar was skilled in that area), but the fact that by his words and actions prior to the Trident, he seemed to have believed that him winning was a done deal. (He said to Jaime, "When I return, I'll call a counsel," etc.) How and why was he so sure he was going to win against Robert, a very angry man with a very heavy grudge who just so happened to be one of the greatest, strongest warriors of his day? GRRM also has noted (I think) that Rhaegar sought out king bob for single combat. What made Rhaegar so sure of victory? Some plan? (Given everything we've heard about him from everyone save the jealous and embittered king bob, foul play seems rather unlikely, but I guess we shouldn't rule it out entirely.) Confidence in his own fighting skills? A determination to win for Lyanna? Targ hubris? The knowledge that he was the better man, and that good would surely triumph? (If so, the poor bastard sure was in the wrong series.) Sheer dumb luck?

Overall, Rhaegar’s actions pre duel with Robert have always struck me as strange…what we know of his last words and actions suggest a man very confident in his own survival, but how would he have been so sure of this?

I thought I had heard that it was Rhaegar who sought out Robert.

I would say it was a combination of love/jealousy, Targ. hubris, and prophesy.

While Lyanna was not happy about Roberts infidelity, I've yet to see proof that Lyanna was never attracted to Robert, and her disappointment over his lack of fidelity might suggest to me there was some initial feeling, so perhaps Rhaegar was also jealous and wanted to get rid of any rivalry, so he sought him out.

If she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, then she admired marital prowess and skills, (perhaps another reason for Rhaegar to prove himself), so one might think she would admire Robert at least as a Warrior.

[The Promised Prince]

I always thought the definition of prodigy was to be very good at something at a very early age.

[Barty]

Winning at Harrenhall proves nothing - that's a tourney and jousting has hardly anything to do with real combat. Rhaegar fought once in anger and was defeated and I also maintain that he was a coward as well because he only came out to fight when he had no choice(hiding away for the better part of the rebellion - and being too afraid to fight Brandon)

[Lion of Judah]

From what is mentioned about him he was obviously a skilled fighter though fighting was not in his nature. I don't know where this idea of him being a coward comes, makes think some people pay selective attention to details in the book. He did personally take control of the crowns forces when Robert marched the Kings Road to the Trident. Fact is the man was no push over, it's not as though Robert had his way with him seeing as how their duel was described as legendary.