Best and Worst Statesmen/women in the series?

[Frey Pie]

So Tyrion (after he was disgraced), Varys (probably, although that means he's effective, Varys killed Kevan for that reason), Doran. Anyone else of importance? The funny thing is Doran is not much of a danger, in the grand scheme of things. The fact he looked scary, for a time, was purely a product of Dany hatching three dragons.

How does Dany make Doran more dangerous? Dorans very dangerous. Did Oberyn poison Tywin? Possibly. Did he do it because of Doran? Possibly. Dorans been working towards Tywins downfall for 15 or so years. Hel most likely ally with Aegon now and do his best to bring down Lannister rule.

Id add LF to that list. He whisked Sansa away to ruin Tywins plans and make his own come to fruition

[Chaircat Meow]

How does Dany make Doran more dangerous? Dorans very dangerous. Did Oberyn poison Tywin? Possibly. Did he do it because of Doran? Possibly. Dorans been working towards Tywins downfall for 15 or so years. Hel most likely ally with Aegon now and do his best to bring down Lannister rule.

Id add LF to that list. He whisked Sansa away to ruin Tywins plans and make his own come to fruition

Not really. He's a fifth column in westeros in the event the Targs get their act together, which, until Dany came along, they showed little sign of doing. And for most of that time Tywin could count on Bob, Ned, Jon, Hoster and so on to help him see Doran off.

I don't really buy the Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory but if you do, fair enough.

LF dislikes Tyrion a good deal more than he dislikes Tywin (dagger incident and all).

[Frey Pie]

Not really. He's a fifth column in westeros in the event the Targs get their act together, which, until Dany came along, they showed little sign of doing. And for most of that time Tywin could count on Bob, Ned, Jon, Hoster and so on to help him see Doran off.

I don't really buy the Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory but if you do, fair enough.

LF dislikes Tyrion a good deal more than he dislikes Tywin (dagger incident and all).

Well he has the power to go for independance since TWOTFKs. What makes him dangerous for me is that nobody suspects him. Tyrion tries to keep him sweet but Doran has many plots going on. Its not the enemy infront of me i fear, but the one behind

[Inara]

Despite being old and gouty, people still take him very seriously outside of Dorne (the irony here is that his own people don't give him half as much credit).Doran Martell was the only person I can recall Tywin complimenting, Renly wanted the Dornish on their side, Robb was disappointed to find that the Dornish had sided with the Lannisters, Jon Arryn had to personally go down and calm the Martells, and Jon Connington also wants Doran as an ally. Doran is also networked with powerful people in the Free Cities (Archon of Tyrosh, Sealord of Braavos, Norvos, and most likely Volantis and Myr as well). In fact, he is the only great lord who has his own foreign relations that aren't tied to the Iron Throne. Tyrion had hoped to keep Doran Martell as a hostage (the offer of the council seat) because the Lannisters wanted leverage over the Martells in case they went against the throne.

So regardless of how much Dorne can actually contribute to a war (they had a small army) or how much wealth they have, they are a significant force in Westerosi politics. A lot of that is due to Doran - his ability to make Dorne seem more dangerous than it actually is, as well as the fact that he can put aside his own personal feelings for a long term and yet more satisfying goal.

[Axrendale]

My thoughts on some of the names that have come up thus far:

* Tywin Lannister has probably recieved the most mentions thus far, and I would say that this is entirely deserved - although he is a deeply unsympathetic character, he is almost certainly the most powerful and successful of all the Westerosi Lords to have appeared thus far in the series. He embodies the truth of something that was observed at one point in the series: "Many good men have made bad kings, and some bad men have made good kings". His record speaks for itself: he extinguished all opposition to his family's rule in the Westerlands, and restored the fortunes of House Lannister after years of misrule by his father while he was still half a boy; served as Hand of the King to Aerys II for two decades, in which he amassed personal prestige that eclipsed the King, and presided over peace and prosperity; remained neutral for most of Robert's Rebellion but managed, thanks to ruthless opportunism, to benefit from the outcome more than most of those who fought loyally for the victor; consolidated his position in the years of Robert's reign to the point of being considered the most powerful lord in the realm; won the war against Robb Stark "with quills and ravens" rather than with swords; and died in the midst of building a power base that would have cemented the control of his family over the Iron Throne. There is a telling indication of how pivotal Tywin was to the fortunes of his family: as long as he was alive people spoke of "the power of Casterly Rock" and "the strength of Casterly Rock" - after he was dead, they only spoke of "the wealth of Casterly Rock".

* Petyr Baelish is an interesting one to consider, as he is unquestionably one of the most talented manipulators of both people and events to appear in the series, but a large part of that talent has been demonstrated in the willful fostering of chaos and discord in the realm. He is a virtuoso of financial affairs, with an ability to "magic coin out of thin air", but did so mostly in funding Robert Baratheon's ruinous extravagences. He negotiated the initial terms of alliance between the Lannisters and Tyrells, and orchestrated his own position as Lord Protector of the Vale after he married Lysa Arryn, but behind the scenes was responsible for a series of murders and deceptions that played a critical role in the outbreak and development of the War of the Five Kings. Whether or not he can be considered one of the premier statesmen of the series ultimately hinges on the answer to the question posed by Varys in AGOT: what sort of game is Littlefinger playing?

* Doran Martell is another interesting player, as he can boast few if any notable public accomplishments as Prince of Dorne, and yet behind the scenes has been revealed as one of the most dedicated and fastidious (arguably a little bit too fastidious) power brokers in Westeros. Currently his successes have largely been limited to husbanding his resources, protecting his limited power base, and fostering potential opportunities and spaces for maneuvering (at least one of his schemes, namely the one involving Quentyn, has blown up rather spectacularly), but he has clearly been laying the groundwork for moves that have the potential to decisively impact the power structure of the Seven Kingdoms. He definitely belongs on this list.

* Tyrion Lannister is a character whose influence (both intentional and unintentional) on the events of the series has been enormous, so it is worth reflecting on the qualities that helped to enable that influence. In terms of his intelligence and abilities (and some of his other characteristics) he is fully the equal of his father, but has had to labor under a set of disadvantages that Tywin never had to cope with. Despite these (or perhaps in part because of them), he has demonstrated again and again a peerless knack for maneuvering through diverse and dangerous situations in ways that do not always leave him on top, but invariably have a powerful impact. He won the allegiance of the Hill Tribesmen, effectively took control of King's Landing (despite the persistent opposition of his sister) during his handship, negotiated influential alliances, defended the city against Stannis Baratheon's attack with great success, subtly directed Young Griff towards invading Westeros, and at the close of ADWD was working to re-align the Second Sons for the upcoming battle of Meereen. Exactly what the future holds for the Imp is unclear, but the words of Moqorro imply his role will continue to be significant: "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all".

* Ned Stark inspires a lot of back-and-forth on this subject because he was clearly an honorable, well-intentioned, highly capable man who nonetheless proved to be an utter failure when it came to playing the game of thrones. He was an excellent military commander, and all indications are that his tenure as Lord Paramount of the North was a great success (he amassed a solid record for upholding justice, and inspired great devotion amongst many of his vassals and subjects). His disdain for the southron brand of politicking and his rigid adherance to personal standards made his brief but inglorious tenure as Hand of the King a failure however. He showed some talent as an administrator, and doggedly pursued his investigations into the paternity of Robert's children and the death of Jon Arryn, but he proved utterly unable to percieve or analyze the ulterior loyalties and motives of most of the people around him, and never attempted to establish any kind of independent power base from which he could work within King's Landing - or recognized how vulnerable the absence of such a base made him. He relied on the good will and friendship of Robert for his power, and after Robert's death he thus found himself exposed to the factions whose enmity he had earned through his actions. Despite being a greatly sympathetic character, he does bear some of the responsibility for the events which led to the outbreak of the War of the Five Kings.

* There is not a lot of information to work with regarding Jon Arryn, but what we do know of him tends to paint him in excellent colors as a statesman. He was greatly experienced as Lord Paramount of the Vale at the time when he raised his banners in support of his wards Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon, and provided them with invaluable assistance in their subsequent war against the Targaryens. He orchestrated the marital alliances that led to House Tully joining the rebellion, fought under Robert's banner in the Battle of the Trident, and successfully negotiated with the Martells for Dorne to pledge fealty to Robert. In the fifteen years subsequent to the rebellion, he thanklessly toiled as Robert's Hand in an effort to keep the affairs of the crown basically functionable, even as Robert's wasteful and extravagent lifestyle plunged the treasury deeply into debt. He worked with Stannis to investigate the paternity of the King's children, in the course of which investigation he apparently demonstrated commendable powers of deduction, but ultimately provoked his own murder. If one were to sum up his legacy, it could probably be said that he belongs in the second tier of Hands of the King as measured by ability and accomplishment, along with Hands like Prince Viserys - men who were instrumental to maintaining the stability of the realm in their time, but who ultimately recieved few accolades from their contemporaries (the first tier is occupied by Septon Barth, Tywin Lannister, and Baelor Breakspear).

* Kevan Lannister spent most of his life acting as advisor and subordinate to his elder brother - a position to which he brought qualities of unshakable loyalty, rock-hard dependability, and solid competence. Because of this he was often dismissed by people as being little more than an extension of Tywin's will, but he was briefly able to demonstrate formidable capabilities as an idendependent actor after his sibling was murdered. Nobody knew Tywin's plans and ambitions better than Kevan did, and after his brother's death he was the one man who truly had a chance of finishing the work that he had begun. Although initially forced to the sidelines as Cersei's blunders and follies steadily undermined House Lannister, after her arrest by the Faith Kevan was able to secure the regency for himself, and set about trying to recapture the ground that she had lost. He undertook to reconcile with the Tyrells by making numerous concessions to them and attempting to establish working relationships with their leading figures; did his best to mollify the Faith and reaffirm their support for Tommen; sidelined Cersei; and made plans to deal with the ruinous finances of the crown. His success in pursuing these objectives was ironically the catalyst for his murder at the hands of Varys, who was determined that the trends of Cersei's disastrous regency be continued. It can thus be said that Kevan stands as a primary example of a man who had excellent potential as a statesmen, but who lived most of his life in the shadow of his brother, and was tragically killed before he had a chance to really shine on his own.

* Robb Stark is easily one of the most tragic figures in the series, and a compelling character, but at the end of the day I have to agree with those who put him in the category of failed statesman. His obvious martial brilliance and charismatic leadership is not enough to obscure the fact that his brief reign as 'King in the North' ultimately wound up as a lost cause. In fairness, Robb himself was only partly to blame for the dire straits that he and his followers eventually came to - there were many external factors that worked negatively upon him. He stands as the premier example of a leader who won every battle he fought, but lost because he failed to fully comprehend the broader strategic context of a number of his own actions.

* Cersei Lannister is unquestionably, and has justly been acknowledged as, by far the worst statesman contained within the series. Her record of blunders, missteps, and follies truly is peerless: she sabotaged the most powerful military alliance in Westeros based on nothing but petty insecurities and paranoia; allowed the Faith to militarize for the first time in centuries; antagonized the Iron Bank and squandered the profits of her intransigence on a fleet of warships that were stolen by the man she put in charge of them... the list just goes on and on.

[Knight Of Winter]

Nice post, Axrendale :)

Best ones are IMO Tyrion, Varys and Littlefinger.

Worst ones are, in order:

1.Aerys

2.Cersei

3.Lysa

[Jaime's Wench]

Tyrion was the best. He rocked the Blackwater and knew how to play the game. It's such a shame Cersei had to stab in the nose back.

Worst, I would say Cersei. But Robert is marginally worse. It takes an utter blind fool to not realise your wife is screwing her twin and has created three wonderful blonde-haired children by him. Plus he didn't care to rule in the slightest, drove the crown into debt, allowed the Lannisters too much power rather than taking the reins himself, and was naive enough to drag Ned down south 'to fix it all' at the eleventh hour.

[Sneak]

I'm going to agree with most people here and say that Petyr Baelish is the best and Cersei the worst.

LF has made allies left, right and centre, manipulating them by giving them what they want and in turn getting what he wants, and has risen from the lowest lord to Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Paramount and the Trident and Lord Protector of the Vale.

Cersei has alienated every potential ally she has and is a paranoid fool. She went from Queen to Walk of Shame.

Tywin was good at managing a realm during times of war and peace, giving 20 years of peace and prosperity as Hand but his weakness lay in holding onto allies and making enemies. Now the sins of the father pass to the children as Jolene Brown noted.

Littlefinger is good at court politics in making allies and playing divide and conquer, and he is good at managing finances. His real weakness seems to be Sansa.

The worst would have to be Cersei not Ned. Ned may have been bad at politics, but at least he had better sense than to do things Cersei did. Cersei inherited all of her father's worst charcteristics: vanity, greed, inability to forgive and cruelty; while lacking his best characteristics: patience, contemplation and good political sense. She is Robert and Aerys put together.

This sums it up pretty nicely.

[Axrendale]

Nice post, Axrendale :)

Thank you. :)

[Frey Pie]

Ya well said Axrendale. Robb and Ned are just completely alien to everything in the South. A question to everyone-how would any of the "good" statesmen do in the North? Not very well i would think........same goes for Northerners down South.

I think its well established now though that the worst is Cersei. Balon and a few others come close but shes the creme de la creme

[Axrendale]

Ya well said Axrendale.

Thanks. :)

[Frey Pie]

Thanks. :)

Any comment on how Tywin or LF would get on administrating the North?

[Axrendale]

Any comment on how Tywin or LF would get on administrating the North?

Depends on how they went about doing it. I think it would be feasible for them to rule the North through surrogates (eg. the plans for Sansa and the Boltons that Tywin was devising in ASOS), but attempts at direct rule would likely end very badly.

[Frey Pie]

Depends on how they went about doing it. I think it would be feasible for them to rule the North through surrogates (eg. the plans for Sansa and the Boltons that Tywin was devising in ASOS), but attempts at direct rule would likely end very badly.

I agree. I can see Tyrion and Sansa ruling together. If Tywin attempted to rule there though? I think your right saying it wouldnt end well. The North and South is too different-culture, morals, values ec etc. So is it fair to judge Ned and Robb on there actions in such a different region?

[Inara]

I agree. I can see Tyrion and Sansa ruling together. If Tywin attempted to rule there though? I think your right saying it wouldn't end well. The North and South is too different-culture, morals, values ec etc. So is it fair to judge Ned and Robb on there actions in such a different region?

Well, in that case, that applies for all people. A man from the Reach could never rule in Dorne (they tried and failed), a Dornishman can't rule in the Riverlands, etc. Culture is just as important as blood, and even amongst the Andals (Riverlands, Vale, Reach, and the Stormlands), a "foreign" person will not get the same level of support as a native.

Also, I guess I think of a ruler and a statesmen as two different things. You can be one or the other or perhaps even both, but they imply different things. Ned was a great ruler, and perhaps Robb would have been as well, but diplomacy and relations with other regions was not their forte, which in my mind makes them poor statesmen. We know Jon Arryn was a good statesmen in that he helped Robert keep the other regions stable (Greyjoy's Rebellion, the unrest in Dorne, etc), and yet we have no idea how he was as a ruler of the Vale. Tywin ruled as hand of the king for two decades, and the entire realm prospered, not just his own lands. Doran Martell has an extensive network in the Free Cities, and despite his inaction, still commands a great deal of respect from outsiders. Petyr Baelish played the Starks, the Tyrells, the Arryns, and the Lannisters, and even though we know his intentions are not good, to the people he's dealing with, his diplomacy is obviously 100%.

Cersei, on the other hand, is an awful stateswomen because she publicly alienates her allies, both foreign and domestic. Stannis would be an able ruler but an awful statesman while Roose might be a better statesman than a ruler.

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree. I can see Tyrion and Sansa ruling together. If Tywin attempted to rule there though? I think your right saying it wouldnt end well. The North and South is too different-culture, morals, values ec etc. So is it fair to judge Ned and Robb on there actions in such a different region?

I think the answer is yes.

Clearly, Ned will be a better lord paramount of the north than he will be Hand of the king, at the very least in the short term. There is no denying this. As the Stark in Winterfell he enjoys all the inherited loyalty possessed by his dynasty, built up over thousands of years. He has his own considerable experience, as lord for 15 years, and as the second son of the reigning lord before that. In the final analysis, in the north he has thousands of swords sworn to him, and next to none in the south.

That said, I don't think this means his political naivety, on display in KL, will magically disappear north of the neck. As Axrendale said in that rather impressive post of his, Ned proved inept at analyzing the ulterior motives of power-brokers around him, and failed to see the need to build up a reliable power base. To me, that seems to suggest Ned does not understand the politics of a feudal realm very well, period. Those are grave mistakes, mistakes that could easily be made when handling his own bannermen in the north.

In addition, I don't see the northern political culture as that different to that of the south. There is a notable religious difference, but the social and political system is exactly the same. Social mores, like guest right and kinslaying are common to both peoples. There is some indication the Starks make an effort to endear themselves to the more remote populations, like the hill tribes, who have a less deferential idea of lordship than people elsewhere, although they seem to be a minority.

In short, ruling the south isn't that different from ruling the north and as Ned seems ill equipped for the former I do tend to believe he might have been less than stellar at the latter had he faced serious challenges.

[Joyful Union]

Cersei is without a doubt the worst stateswoman. Rearming the Faith is going to lead to some sort of holy war or seizure of power, and Im pretty sure that gaining the emnity of Highgarden was a terrible idea, seeing how they are currently the most powerful house in Westeros

[James Arryn]

I don't even necessarily believe that Ned makes a poor Hand in most situations.

The Hand is there to achieve the ends of the King, and defend the Realm. An attack from the Queen herself is probably not something most have to watch out for. And that was really Ned's only failing while Robert was alive. It also did for Jon Arryn, and he was an excellent statesman. And, more, Ned was finding out a lot, and very quickly. I go back and forth on him as a statesman, but I think people go way too far with this 'in over his head' business. His honor was a conscious choice, not a blind one, and in many other situations it would have served him well. Wasn't Duncan the Tall considered a voice of wisdom and so forth in spite of being just as honor-bound?

I think people paint things too black and white in retrospect, when imo despite coming into a pretty damnable situation, Ned wasn't that far from working his way through it.

[Toos]

In short, ruling the south isn't that different from ruling the north and as Ned seems ill equipped for the former I do tend to believe he might have been less than stellar at the latter had he faced serious challenges.

I disagree. I mean I can't imagine that Littlefinger or Tywin could deal with North in the same way how they are used in the south. LF's tactic is mainly bribes. I doubt that he would be succesfull with bribes in North.

I don't think that Tywin is best statesmen. Tywin is great administrstor but he isn't very good diplomat. During RR he alienated Dorne. If Robert didn't die he would fight againts Baratheons, Starks, Tullys and probably Reach too. He is more than willing make smallfolks suffer than try settle things with diplomacy. I think that good statesman is someone who is trying find compromise for greater good of country than someone who rather settle things with bloodshed.

[Frey Pie]

Well, in that case, that applies for all people. A man from the Reach could never rule in Dorne (they tried and failed), a Dornishman can't rule in the Riverlands, etc. Culture is just as important as blood, and even amongst the Andals (Riverlands, Vale, Reach, and the Stormlands), a "foreign" person will not get the same level of support as a native.

Also, I guess I think of a ruler and a statesmen as two different things. You can be one or the other or perhaps even both, but they imply different things. Ned was a great ruler, and perhaps Robb would have been as well, but diplomacy and relations with other regions was not their forte, which in my mind makes them poor statesmen. We know Jon Arryn was a good statesmen in that he helped Robert keep the other regions stable (Greyjoy's Rebellion, the unrest in Dorne, etc), and yet we have no idea how he was as a ruler of the Vale. Tywin ruled as hand of the king for two decades, and the entire realm prospered, not just his own lands. Doran Martell has an extensive network in the Free Cities, and despite his inaction, still commands a great deal of respect from outsiders. Petyr Baelish played the Starks, the Tyrells, the Arryns, and the Lannisters, and even though we know his intentions are not good, to the people he's dealing with, his diplomacy is obviously 100%.

Cersei, on the other hand, is an awful stateswomen because she publicly alienates her allies, both foreign and domestic. Stannis would be an able ruler but an awful statesman while Roose might be a better statesman than a ruler.

I agree to a certain extent but then Petyr Baelish has risen to power in the Vale. He may be from the Vale originally, but hes barely considered a lord. Now hes the Lord Protector of the Vale

I think the answer is yes.

Clearly, Ned will be a better lord paramount of the north than he will be Hand of the king, at the very least in the short term. There is no denying this. As the Stark in Winterfell he enjoys all the inherited loyalty possessed by his dynasty, built up over thousands of years. He has his own considerable experience, as lord for 15 years, and as the second son of the reigning lord before that. In the final analysis, in the north he has thousands of swords sworn to him, and next to none in the south.

That said, I don't think this means his political naivety, on display in KL, will magically disappear north of the neck. As Axrendale said in that rather impressive post of his, Ned proved inept at analyzing the ulterior motives of power-brokers around him, and failed to see the need to build up a reliable power base. To me, that seems to suggest Ned does not understand the politics of a feudal realm very well, period. Those are grave mistakes, mistakes that could easily be made when handling his own bannermen in the north.

In addition, I don't see the northern political culture as that different to that of the south. There is a notable religious difference, but the social and political system is exactly the same. Social mores, like guest right and kinslaying are common to both peoples. There is some indication the Starks make an effort to endear themselves to the more remote populations, like the hill tribes, who have a less deferential idea of lordship than people elsewhere, although they seem to be a minority.

In short, ruling the south isn't that different from ruling the north and as Ned seems ill equipped for the former I do tend to believe he might have been less than stellar at the latter had he faced serious challenges.

I dont think theres any doubt Ned was a good ruler in the North. Really Bran id call into question your judgement if you think so unless you have any evidence to back it up. Theres zero evidence he was bad, and much to the contrary as iv already pointed out before. Down south it was different but Nort is a whole different kettle of fish. The North respects his family and he did much to increase that respect. As far as we know hes never disgraced himself

Neds problem in the South was that he doesnt play the game, everyone around him does. For him LF, Varys, Cersei etc were all people who had a job to do. To them he was another piece in the game. They dont play the game so much in the North. He has absolute power. Aslong as he doesnt misuse that power he has complete support. He thought it would be the same down south. He is the Hand of the King, defacto ruler. He was trying to govern the realm like he did the North which was never going to work. He dispensed justice properly, tried reining in robert etc. Its not that he was a bad ruler, but he bever adapted to the game. He had to play the game to survive, which he didnt understand until too late