Best and Worst Statesmen/women in the series?

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree to a certain extent but then Petyr Baelish has risen to power in the Vale. He may be from the Vale originally, but hes barely considered a lord. Now hes the Lord Protector of the Vale

I dont think theres any doubt Ned was a good ruler in the North. Really Bran id call into question your judgement if you think so unless you have any evidence to back it up. Theres zero evidence he was bad, and much to the contrary as iv already pointed out before. Down south it was different but Nort is a whole different kettle of fish. The North respects his family and he did much to increase that respect. As far as we know hes never disgraced himself

Neds problem in the South was that he doesnt play the game, everyone around him does. For him LF, Varys, Cersei etc were all people who had a job to do. To them he was another piece in the game. They dont play the game so much in the North. He has absolute power. Aslong as he doesnt misuse that power he has complete support. He thought it would be the same down south. He is the Hand of the King, defacto ruler. He was trying to govern the realm like he did the North which was never going to work. He dispensed justice properly, tried reining in robert etc. Its not that he was a bad ruler, but he bever adapted to the game. He had to play the game to survive, which he didnt understand until too late

I've never said there is any evidence Ned was a bad lord of Winterfell. You're right, there isn't. I just said I don't think ruling from WF or KL are as different, in the essentials, as you think, and that, if things had been, well, more interesting up north, Ned might have floundered there, like he did in KL.

[Winter's Ghost]

I've never said there is any evidence Ned was a bad lord of Winterfell. You're right, there isn't. I just said I don't think ruling from WF or KL are as different, in the essentials, as you think, and that, if things had been, well, more interesting up north, Ned might have floundered there, like he did in KL.

But the fact that he didn't flounder shows that they are in fact very different. I don't see how anyone can think they arn't different, The North is vastly different than the South and ruling them is not the same thing at all. Since things weren't "more interesting" then that proves how different they are, if they were the same, then the North would be "more interesting".

[LordBloodraven]

What about Cat for someone who was pretty smart in political matters.

She's very knowledgeable about the political geography of the south and has clearly learned a lot about ruling from her father and from Ned.

She orchestrated the Frey alliance, the biggest political coup of Robb's southern campaign.

She wisely urged peace on the lords at RR, recognizing when the war had started to overshoot its initial aims.

She counselled against the return of Theon to Balon.

She came up with the idea of negotiating with the Baratheon brothers and of trying to form a broader anti-Lannister alliance.

Robb only screws up when she is not there.

She has the measure of Walder Frey better than anyone else.

Overall she is shrewd and realistic and has good instincts.

She screwed up by releasing Jaime. But overall, I'll give her an A- for her skills given the particular case of that one

[Pod The Impaler]

BEST:

Tyrion Lannister - the sad fact is that the "twisted monkey demon" is the best leader in his family. Learned and intelligent, socially savvy, able to use his wit to defend himself, pragmatic and realistic, able to stand on principles or compromise as needed, and despite being ruthless at times he still has some sense of honour and compassion. He actually tries to improve things. So of course, everyone hates him.

Littlefinger - He seems able to convince anyone of anything, and never seems like a threat to anyone important.

Varys - He seems a master at actually turning peoples' loathing of him into something positive.

Margaery Tyrell - odd choice, but what I see is: she knows how to win peoples' hearts (highborn and lowborn), she knows how to use her feminine wiles while knowing the importance of seeming virtuous, and seems to be genuinely affectionate to those she likes. But for all her sweetness, she does not seem naive or unable to protect herself. Granny taught her well.

WORST:

Balon Greyjoy - Your only son, the prince, returns not in chains but in triumph, bringing you a potential alliance that can make you a true king and smash the throne that made you once bend the knee in submission. What do you do ? Why reject it of course, and attack your only potential ally ! Oh, and don't forget to mock your son for wanting to come home and trying to prove to you that he's become a man worthy of being your heir. Humiliate him, and make him feel like he's less of a man than his sister, in a culture where women are just enjoyment-holes. :bang:

Viserys Targaryen - Time to play "good idea, bad idea, really bad idea".

Good idea: Married his sister off to the most bad-ass undefeated warrior king of the largest and most ferocious army in Essos.

Bad idea: Threw ineffectual tantrums in front of said army and looked down upon their culture, until they lost all respect for him as a man.

Really bad idea: Got drunk, jealous, and mouthy, drew a blade in their holy city, and finally threatened to gut the warrior king's pregnant wife (his own sister) right in front of all his best men.

Cersei Lannister - Her statecraft can be summed up in the phrase "HOW DARE YOU DUCK WHEN I THROW THINGS AT YOU ?!!!"

Lysa Tully & Catelyn Tully - Lysa helps sow the seeds of a war against the Lannisters, then gets mad when asked to join it. Catelyn might as well be an enemy saboteur whenever she decides to act on impulse. The punchline: After all she had done, she still doesn't trust Jon Snow.

[LordBloodraven]

Hey, what about Bloodraven?

He succesfully crushed the second Blackfyre rebellion before its start and prevented another uprising by imprisoning the rightful heir Daemon II (instead of killing him).

Formed a good duo with the bookish king, Aerys II

Successfully contained the effects of the great Spring Sickness and the 209 AL drought

Contained Dagon Greyjoy's reavings after fixing the Blackfyre problem? (Victarion saying that even Dagon couldn't defeat dragons)

Kept the kingdom together against the Blackfyres, during the Great Spring Sickness, Dagon Greyjoy's reavings, the High Septon's schemses and plots, Maekar's jealousy and Bittersteel's desire for revenge.

Even after being Hand of the King and Lord Commander of the NW, as the Last Greenseer, he's working towards the defeat of the Others through Brandon Stark.

PS: Killed Daemon Blackfyre the first Pretender at the Redgrass Field and effectively kept the Targs on the Throne

[Chaircat Meow]

Formed a good duo with the bookish king, Aerys II

It was Aerys I.

[Frey Pie]

I think Lysa Tully would be up there with Cersei if she had been in the latters position.

@Bran-i dont think there is a game in the North. Ned doesnt have to make a seperate power base to protect from those who owe him loyalty as he should have done in KL. The North will only follow someone who leads by example. Ned doesnt keep a headman. Theon was made kill Mikken(?)himself as this is the Northern way. As far as we know the other lords dont work against Ned. Sure they try to marry in for claims, try claiming lands against other vassals e.g Manderly and Bolton in the Hornwood lands, but Neds word was law and final. Perhaps because there is no great city and so the government of the North is in WF alone, no other lords recide there, unlike in KL. All in all i would say there as close as a pea and a bean

Sorry if i came across a bit strong in the last post with the questioning your judgement-only realised there it could look kinda harsh :cheers:

[Chaircat Meow]

I think Lysa Tully would be up there with Cersei if she had been in the latters position.

@Bran-i dont think there is a game in the North. Ned doesnt have to make a seperate power base to protect from those who owe him loyalty as he should have done in KL. The North will only follow someone who leads by example. Ned doesnt keep a headman. Theon was made kill Mikken(?)himself as this is the Northern way. As far as we know the other lords dont work against Ned. Sure they try to marry in for claims, try claiming lands against other vassals e.g Manderly and Bolton in the Hornwood lands, but Neds word was law and final. Perhaps because there is no great city and so the government of the North is in WF alone, no other lords recide there, unlike in KL. All in all i would say there as close as a pea and a bean

I guess I just find that implausible. If Mandy and Roose really wanted those lands and conspired to get them, by allying with other vassals, would Ned's word still be law? As for leading by example, that's fine as far as it goes, but it's not going to be enough to head off all your political problems. Also, as far as we can tell, most lords of westeros don't reside in KL either, unless they are given a government position. Anyway, we're not going to agree on this, but I can appreciate how you get your position from the text.

Sorry if i came across a bit strong in the last post with the questioning your judgement-only realised there it could look kinda harsh :cheers:

No worries. Didn't take it the wrong way. :cheers:

[Frey Pie]

Oh id also like to say i think Sansa has great potential. She combines Cersei charms, LFs wits and her families good name/likeability. All in all if she remembers herself and where she came from, with LFs training she could be the greatest stateswoman by a distance IMO

[Frey Pie]

I guess I just find that implausible. If Mandy and Roose really wanted those lands and conspired to get them, by allying with other vassals, would Ned's word still be law? As for leading by example, that's fine as far as it goes, but it's not going to be enough to head off all your political problems. Also, as far as we can tell, most lords of westeros don't reside in KL either, unless they are given a government position. Anyway, we're not going to agree on this, but I can appreciate how you get your position from the text.

No worries. Didn't take it the wrong way. :cheers:

In the North i think it is. If Ned or Robb were there for the Hornwood problem, they would award the land as they see fit. The loosing party might grumble but thats as far as it would go. Not a hope either would fight against a Stark ruling. By lords in KL i mean they have a variety from all the different regions there at different times. In addition you have governers who have a level of autonomy nobody in WF does except the ruling Stark. Look at the Hands tourney. Lords from all over the land. Some stayed for a good time after. These all have there own motives

Sweet!

[Axrendale]

I don't think that Tywin is best statesmen. Tywin is great administrstor but he isn't very good diplomat.

The manner in which he won the war against Robb Stark belies this statement. By conniving with Sybell Spicer, Tywin effectively orchestrated the sundering of the Young Wolf's most strategically important alliance, and he subsequently succeeded in negotiating terms with the Freys and Bolton for them to transfer their allegiance to the Lannisters. After his return to King's Landing he did a good job of cultivating his relations with the Tyrells, and he could also take credit for the policy of clemency that led most of the stormlords and riverlords to renew their fealty to the Iron Throne. His misjudgement of his relations with the Martells is a blot on his record, but does not detract from his other accomplishments.

[Fat Mac]

Best has to go to my favorite man Petyr Baelish. Worst.... probably Cersei.

[Fire Eater]

Fire Eater,

Interesting commentary on Baelor Breakspear, but I think there's one reason why leaders like Dany and Jon have a harder time with the inertia of institutions: they have no time to do so. While Dany is clearly suffering from a lack of delegating work and a lack of proper training, Jon is in a better position and only really fails because he is too progressive too fast. But on the other hand, his morals leave him little choice but to act as he does. His situation is more black and white and a whole lot bleaker than Baelor Breakspear's in Dunk and Egg, which I think should count into his favour as a leader and statesman.

While I think Jon Arryn and Ned Stark did a good job in the past, I am holding out for Jon Snow for the future. He's got great work ethics, he doesn't care for birth, he's guided by solid morals and he's not afraid of progressive thinking, plus he is most of the time able to put his own personal goals and vendettas aside (he tries hard with Selyse and Allister Thorne for instance).

I agree with everything you said; Baelor had something that Jon didn't have: time. The Blackfyre Rebellion had been crushed with the Blackfyres fled across the Narrow Sea; there was no immediate threat. The Others were pushing south quickly, and Jon couldn't have the wildlings wait a few years before getting behind the Wall. These actions done by Jon should have been done years ago, but it's kind of too late for gradualism.

Jon does channel some of Baelor Breakspear: demanding hostages from the wildlings to avoid flare ups like Baelor demanding hostages from Blackfyre supporters, and defending a complete stranger, Sam, in the practice yard like Baelor defending Dunk by engaging in the trial by seven. Jon still has a way to go, but he has plenty of potential as well as plenty of ability for his age.

Jon is currently the best statesman alive in ASOIAF (I know about the stabbing, but he has too much unfulfilled to die).

[Inara]

I agree to a certain extent but then Petyr Baelish has risen to power in the Vale. He may be from the Vale originally, but hes barely considered a lord. Now hes the Lord Protector of the Vale

Baelish's big problem was that he was of low birth. If he'd been noble born, the son of a great lord, things might have gone more smoothly for him. But the Lords Declarant aren't going to want to take orders from an up-jumped grandson of a hedge knight. Would northern lords like Manderly and Bolton be okay with having Jory Cassel named as their liege lord, especially if the orders came from a distant king?

I dont think theres any doubt Ned was a good ruler in the North. Really Bran id call into question your judgement if you think so unless you have any evidence to back it up. Theres zero evidence he was bad, and much to the contrary as iv already pointed out before. Down south it was different but Nort is a whole different kettle of fish. The North respects his family and he did much to increase that respect. As far as we know hes never disgraced himself

Neds problem in the South was that he doesnt play the game, everyone around him does. For him LF, Varys, Cersei etc were all people who had a job to do. To them he was another piece in the game. They dont play the game so much in the North. He has absolute power. Aslong as he doesnt misuse that power he has complete support. He thought it would be the same down south. He is the Hand of the King, defacto ruler. He was trying to govern the realm like he did the North which was never going to work. He dispensed justice properly, tried reining in robert etc. Its not that he was a bad ruler, but he bever adapted to the game. He had to play the game to survive, which he didnt understand until too late

Actually, I agree with Bran the Cute in this. Ruling is ruling, and even in the North, there was politics. The game might have been slightly different, but the Starks had to play it all the same. You don't stay in charge for ten thousand years without learning how to keep your bannermen happy, especially when some of them are powerful in their own right (Manderlys, Boltons).

Ruling your own lands will always be easier than ruling someone else's, and Ned had the built in loyalty that comes from being a part of the ruling family. The North would have been obliged to follow Ned even if he had been crazy. Disobeying your liege lord is the worst thing anyone can do (which is why deposing Aerys was such a big deal and only came about because of the deaths of a major lord and his heir).

Ned’s big mistake was that he expected the people around him to be as honorable as him, even when it backfires (Robert, Cersei). That mindset isn’t a good one because even in the North, not everyone subscribed to Ned's personal sense of honor. Following the Old Ways and the Old Gods don't make people morally superior, and thus a certain level of wheeling and dealing is to be expected even among the Northmen. While the Starks might be the uncontested leaders, other houses would be vying for more power and influence, and that can involve a certain level of deceit.

This was probably something that Rickard understood and probably trained Brandon for. Ned on the other hand was the second son, and it seems likely that his education was geared more towards martial duties, leaving the diplomacy to his older brother (Willas vs. Garlan and Loras, Doran vs. Oberyn, Tywin vs. his brothers, etc). When he unexpectedly became lord, he had his soldier's mentality to fall back on. We know that his straightforward manner endeared him to the mountain clans, and he managed to keep his bannermen from each other's throats. We also know that after the Stark rule collapsed, people were still loyal to the family. But that doesn't necessarily mean Ned was a fantastic ruler. It also doesn't mean he wasn't, but you can't really infer from either since we never really see Ned actually ruling in the North, nor do we know of anything happening in the North that tested his abilities (long summer, no war, etc).

I personally think Ned was a good guy, and his heart was in the right place. But his vision was limited, and his lack of cunning was a major weakness.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Tyrion  and Petyr Baelish the best statesmen even though Tywin gets the accolades for the Tyrell alliance this was really Tyrion and Petyr's doing .

 

Tywin is the worst .They don't like him nor trust him . I change my mind JOFFREY BARATHEON has to be the worst statesmen of all .

[Mrs.Grumpy]

When I saw the title I thought of Elaena Targaryen as one of the best stateswomen in Westerosi history. She was really good with numbers and she was the one performing master of coins's duties. (unoffically mistress of coins? :p)

 

But she is long dead at the moment so...

 

 

But do you mean good as in morals or good as in performing his/her duties well?

[Stannis broatheon]

Doran is good dealing with internal problems. Tyrion and Tywin are both great statesman also.