Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?

[Tagganaro]

(1) Why have we suddenly escalated to "countless" villages? Even assuming the dragon does not deliberately avoid human contact, it is possible that there are only a limited number of villages - or none - in its hunting range. Isn't Winterfell on the border of a giant forest?

Who's to say how many villages there are within where the range of where the Dragon might be flying? The North tends to be sparsely populated obviously, but there's a boatload of villages still in the area. And a dragon can't go stealth-style: It's flying through the air as a humongous creature that has the ability to blot out the sun below. That's almost impossible to miss. "Countless" might be a poor choice of words, but you would have to admit that it's much more likely that the dragon would pass over at least 1 village than no villages.

(2) There could be plenty of accompanying gossip and tales, without any of it necessarily reaching the ears of one of the 24 POV characters.

This is incredibly unlikely. Considering that Roose and Ramsay have tried calling pretty much the entire North together in ADWD, the idea that a giant flying creature blotting out the sun would not be gossiped about is unbelievable to me. When you're talking about a POV, you're not just talking about that one person. You're talking about every person that POV has come into contact with, and every person those other people have come in contact with. That's a lot of freaking people to miss a dragon flying through the sky.

Varys remarked on them only because he heard ALOT of such rumors. Context clearly indicates that if he had heard only one or two such rumors, he would have dismissed them.

Again, I just find it extremely, extremely unlikely that a dragon flying through the sky would go largely unnoticed, or somehow avoid flying over any villages where it might have been seen. The odds seem pretty slim compared to a far more likely scenario where it gets seen by multiple people.

[The Mountain That Flies]

If there were a literal dragon that had been sleeping beneath Winterfell, it would have likely caused significantly more structural damage when it emerged and started breathing fire. While the place is clearly still in bad shape once the Boltons move in, there aren't the melted stones in the vein of Harrenhall, and the compound was more or less intact. Also, this would raise an absurd number of questions as to how a fully grown (or at least adolescent) dragon came to be interned beneath Winterfell, and how none of the mountain clans, Boltons, Karstarks, or Manderlys have heard or seen it since it emerged. Even though we have a limited number of POV's, we've had encounters with almost every area of the North, and no one had remarked about a dragon roaming around. And finally, it doesn't say that the winged snake flew away. It dissipated almost instantaneously. Unless this mysterious Northern dragon also has teleportation abilities, my vote goes with this being a metaphor.

The vision may have been regarding events that will come to pass, with one of the three actual dragons attacking Winterfell, or maybe it's connected to Rhaegar and the effects his actions had on the Starks. Either way, it's likely not literal (as cool as that would be).

[msheafer33]

Who's to say how many villages there are within where the range of where the Dragon might be flying?

Who's to say indeed? Certainly not me. You perhaps?

The North tends to be sparsely populated obviously, but there's a boatload of villages still in the area.

Ah yes. That's who. Tagganaro is the one to say, apparently.

And a dragon can't go stealth-style:

Yes it can. It can fly through the air. At night. And not roar.

The only time we saw this dragon roar was immediately upon leaving Winterfell, when its roar was part of the chaos of Winterfell burning. After that, it was silent. And gone.

It's flying through the air as a humongous creature that has the ability to blot out the sun below.

Or the stars. If you look up, at the right moment, you might see the stars wink out. Assuming it is not a cloudy night. On a cloudy night, you might see nothing at all. Unless dragons glow in the dark, which has never been established.

"Countless" might be a poor choice of words, but you would have to admit that it's much more likely that the dragon would pass over at least 1 village than no villages.

I don't have to admit anything. Since Summer saw a dragon, and no-one else seems to know about it, logic would seem to suggest that the dragon is keeping a low profile (flying at night, hybernating - or whatever). I see no point in speculate that, contrary to the evidence, it is keeping a high profile, and that everybody knows about it.

Considering that Roose and Ramsay have tried calling pretty much the entire North together in ADWD, the idea that a giant flying creature blotting out the sun would not be gossiped about is unbelievable to me.

I cannot follow this logic. Do you imagine that Roose stood on his castle wall and shouted, and the entire North heard him, and that therefore the Entire North is very small?

When you're talking about a POV, you're not just talking about that one person. You're talking about every person that POV has come into contact with, and every person those other people have come in contact with. That's a lot of freaking people to miss a dragon flying through the sky.

Nonetheless, there must be a huge supply of monster stories floating around Westeros which have not reached our ears. The only reason we heard about the Kraken sinkings is because Varys brought it up to discredit the tale of Dany's dragons.

[Melifeather]

I honestly think it was the comet, but I know if I say the show is one of my main points toward this, I will get a big "Boo". Anyway, in one of Bran's few wolf dreams depicted in the show, he is outside WF and takes a really emphasized look at the comet.

Also, when Martin was asked about this, he said something like - well it's your interpretation how an animal interprets stuff. So I'm guessing just like wolves see swords as iron claws etc, he didn't saw a literal winged snake (which is pretty much how a human would describe a dragon), but the comet.

That's my take anyway.

A comet in the sky would appear too small to cause a wolf to bare his teeth, likewise the dragon would only blot out the sun if he were close to the earth.

Bran has prophetic-vision-dreams and he has wolf-dreams. Context clearly indicates this is a wolf-dream. He is seeing through the eyes of his wolf.

You can postulate, if you like, that he is seeing through the eyes of his wolf, while his wolf has a prophetic vision. But that seems far too elaborate and far-fetched to me. An author should not be THAT tricky with his reader.

And, even if we go with this idea, it only begs the following question: What is the significant or purpose of the prophetic vision?

I don't know either. The fairest reading of the evidence is that Bran is seeing through the eyes of his wolf, and his wolf just saw a dragon. But I see similar reactions from alot ASOIAF fans.

Many others are extremely hostile to the whole Zombie Apocalypse theme, which makes me wonder why they bothered reading past the prologue of book 1.

You could interpret "wolf dreams" two different ways. 1) Bran is sleeping when he sees through Summer's eyes, but is seeing the actual things Summer sees. 2) Bran is sleeping and dreams he is a wolf, but the things he sees are not real, only prophetic dreams.

My interpretation is that the "wolf dreams" are what Summer actually sees, but Bran sees these things while he's sleeping and thus attributes them to "dreams". Which is why he may not have mentioned seeing the dragon. He thinks it was only a dream.

I just feel like Bran doesn't think it's really a dragon, or at least doesn't seem all that concerned about it.

My answer to your statement would be similar to the answer I gave above. Bran doesn't mention the dragon Summer saw because he believes it was just a dream.

I'm leaning towards this being an actual dragon that was "awakened" by the sacking of Winterfell. If it were merely symbolic, I haven't any ideas of what or who it symbolized. I think Jon will be reborn and one of the heads of the dragon, but the dragon Summer sees cannot be Jon, because the timing is off.

[redriver]

In reality it's the burning of Winterfell with the comet in the background through a direwolf's eyes.

Symbolically,I think it foreshadows the discovery and use of dragonglass beneath Winterfell.

[Plume]

I'd love for this to be true. A lone dragon in the north making a nest in a cave like Drogon did and sleeping all day long because even fire personified hates the cold lol.

GRRM please make this true! I don't care where the Dragon would come from: beneath WF or the Wall or something T___T

[trixiebell]

I must have missed where the dragon was described as big enough to blot out the sun. It could have hatched because Winterfell was burning, and then, like Dany's dragons, only be a big as a large bird. Then it could be easily missed by the locals.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

If it's not a baby dragon it could fly very very high in which case no one would even notice it, and if they did they'd probably think it was a bird(confusing the size vs distance). Reminds me of a scene or two where I believe Jon comments on a bird flying overhead.

[Tagganaro]

Who's to say indeed? Certainly not me. You perhaps?

Ah yes. That's who. Tagganaro is the one to say, apparently.

lol. I'll ask again, since I can't seem to get an answer. Do you think it's more likely that this dragon passed over at least one village or none at all? Do you think it's more likely the dragon is going "stealth-style" or not able to keep a low profile?

Yes it can. It can fly through the air. At night. And not roar.

The only time we saw this dragon roar was immediately upon leaving Winterfell, when its roar was part of the chaos of Winterfell burning. After that, it was silent. And gone.

Gone to where? The dragon would still need to eat in an area where game is becoming increasingly scarce. For that matter, why wouldn't the dragon eat at Winterfell where Summer was able to find a dying horse right there, especially if the dragon was somehow hibernating for several years.

Or the stars. If you look up, at the right moment, you might see the stars wink out. Assuming it is not a cloudy night. On a cloudy night, you might see nothing at all. Unless dragons glow in the dark, which has never been established.

But the dragon wasn't flying at night. It was flying in the air during the day. We know this lol. It's flying in the day as it leaves from Winterfell, so that's at least once where it's flying during the day.

I don't have to admit anything. Since Summer saw a dragon, and no-one else seems to know about it, logic would seem to suggest that the dragon is keeping a low profile (flying at night, hybernating - or whatever). I see no point in speculate that, contrary to the evidence, it is keeping a high profile, and that everybody knows about it.

Wow, I don't know what to do with this. I guess we could just end this argument at "I don't have to admit anything". You see no point in speculating that a creature that everything we've been given to know about, is not capable of keeping a low profile, is in fact going stealth-style and somehow keeping a low profile lol.

I cannot follow this logic. Do you imagine that Roose stood on his castle wall and shouted, and the entire North heard him, and that therefore the Entire North is very small?

What??? I don't know how to answer this, I really don't even know what you're saying. All I said is that Roose called all the major lords in the North to Barrowton and then Winterfell, and not one of those lords saw fit to mention that there might be a dragon flying around? And presumably all those lords would come into contact with their local peasants if such a scenario happened, considering a dragon flying through the air is typically not he sort of thing you would expect people to brush under the rug.

I should clarify...I'm not saying it's impossible that there was in fact a dragon, just that it's extremely unlikely based on everything we've been given to know. Whatever, I see no need in hashing this out further since you've resorted to whatever it is you resorted to.

[msheafer33]

If there were a literal dragon that had been sleeping beneath Winterfell, it would have likely caused significantly more structural damage when it emerged and started breathing fire.

I cannot follow this logic.

Firstly, there is no indication that the dragon breathed fire at Winterfell's structures. It simply roared ... and this roar was (apparently) accompanied by a spout of flame; which I imagined as expending itself in the air.

Secondly, Winterfell suffered significant fire damage.

While the place is clearly still in bad shape once the Boltons move in, there aren't the melted stones in the vein of Harrenhall, and the compound was more or less intact.

I don't understand. Why do you expect melted stones? Stones are amazingly hard to melt, even moreso than metal. As far as I know, even Dany's dragons cannot melt stones (though Viserion can to some extent burrow through stone that has to some extent been cracked or weakened by extreme heat).

Also, this would raise an absurd number of questions as to how a fully grown (or at least adolescent) dragon came to be interned beneath Winterfell

It raises the question of how the dragon came to be there, yes. Since Summer saw the dragon, the question of how the dragon got there is not absurd.

and how none of the mountain clans, Boltons, Karstarks, or Manderlys have heard or seen it since it emerged.

We don't need to answer that question. Because first you must establish that no Boltons, Karstarks or Manderlys have heard or seen of it. They may well have heard or seen of it. Those who actually saw it may have gotten eaten by it, and those who merely heard of it probably dismissed it as an old wives tale spread by superstitious peasants.

Even though we have a limited number of POV's, we've had encounters with almost every area of the North

That is totally not true. An absurd statement. Do you realize the Wall is 300 miles long? The North is FREAKING HUGE!

and no one had remarked about a dragon roaming around.

Yes they did. A shepherd boy mentioned it to his mother, who mentioned it to her cousin Suzie, who mentioned it to her husband, who mentioned it to a merchant that was passing through the village, who mentioned it at a neighboring inn the following week, by this time considerably embelished. Whereupon another drunkard outdid him with an even better dragon story. Whereupon the matter was forgotten.

[protar]

I'm inclined to think it was a real dragon though I'm not sure where it comes into the plot. But Winterfell is far too damaged considering that there is no mention of siege weaponry in the northern host or stuff like that. Towers are smashed, and the hot springs have been distrupted, which suggests something bursting out of the ground.

To those who say that the dragon is the comet or a vision, i'd like to point out that while the wolves do use abstract terminology, they see what is there and the comet most certainly looks nothing like a "winged serpent who's roar was a river of flame." Nor do we have any instances of prophecies being built into wolf dreams.

[msheafer33]

lol. I'll ask again, since I can't seem to get an answer. Do you think it's more likely that this dragon passed over at least one village or none at all? Do you think it's more likely the dragon is going "stealth-style" or not able to keep a low profile?

Why should I answer idiotic questions?

I don't know how many villages the dragon passed over. Considering the vast size of the north, and the sparseness of the population, I see no reason to suppose it passed over any villages at all. If it did pass over one or more villages, then, considering that it was flying at night, and all decent folk were safely in their beds with the doors locked, I see no reason to assume that anyone saw it. If one of more persons did see it (as may have happened) I see no reason to suppose the news would necessarily reach one of the 24 POV characters we've been following.

Even if someone else did see it, what difference would it make? You would only interpret it as a hallucination or a vision or a prophesy or a misinterpretation of a comet.

Gone to where?

I don't know. To a the giant forest nearby? To the giant impassible marsh nearby? To an island in the nearby sea? North beyond the Wall?

The dragon would still need to eat in an area where game is becoming increasingly scarce.

Perhaps it had a few good meals and went back into hybernation. But where was it established that game is scarce in the North? I hear that Direwolves are scarce, but eating ordinary deer in the forest might not be a problem. Perhaps it can land in a remote mountain village, and convince the isolated inhabitants to sacrifice sheep and an occasional maiden.

For that matter, why wouldn't the dragon eat at Winterfell [...]

Prove that the dragon did NOT eat at Winterfell, before flying off, and I will answer that question.

But the dragon wasn't flying at night. It was flying in the air during the day. We know this lol. It's flying in the day as it leaves from Winterfell, so that's at least once where it's flying during the day.

I don't have the text in front of me. But I seem to recall mention of the stars being visible.

You see no point in speculating that a creature that everything we've been given to know about, is not capable of keeping a low profile, is in fact going stealth-style and somehow keeping a low profile lol.

Ho hum. Where's the argument?

The only thing established about Dragons is that they have a hard time keeping a low profile when living in the center of a major coastal city. But the last I heard, Drogon and Dany had been missing for weeks without encountering a single human.

All I said is that Roose called all the major lords in the North to Barrowton and then Winterfell, and not one of those lords saw fit to mention that there might be a dragon flying around?

They also failed to mention the Grumkin attacks at Hardley's Hollow. So what? Unless they DID mention it. Where in the text does it say "None of the major lords told mentioned any dragon stories or grumkin stories or fairy stories to Roose"? Not that there is any reason to suppose they WOULD tell such stories to Roose, even if they had heard them. And even if they did relay such information to Roose, why would he relay this to Theon?

[Cat of the Commons]

Regardless of wolf perception vs. human perception, Bran still sees what Summer sees. Woudln't Bran know what a real dragon looks like/be disturbed if he saw one over Winterfell?

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

It's not a dragon or we would have heard about it since then, or at least heard stories about it. Dragon's need to eat, people would notice a big ass dragon coming near their farms for food.

I'm gonna go with the comet, some times the easiest answer is the best one. How could a wolf know what a comet is? As for the comet moving to fast...maybe it was Summer who moved and the view got blocked by the mountains/cliff?

Never know, but i highly doubt a dragon is roaming around without anybody spreading the story.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Regardless of wolf perception vs. human perception, Bran still sees what Summer sees. Woudln't Bran know what a real dragon looks like/be disturbed if he saw one over Winterfell?

No, Bran mentions Iron claws at one point when talking about swords, when he's warging Summer...he would know what a sword is.

[protar]

No, Bran mentions Iron claws at one point when talking about swords, when he's warging Summer...he would know what a sword is.

No, Summer mentions iron claws. But they still look like swords.

If Summer had just seen the comet he would have said something like "a smear of burning blood across the sky" or something like that. Commets don't have heads or wings, they don't roar and they don't breathe fire. There is simply no relation between the two images and such abstract description is never used before or after in wolf-dreams.

[Tagganaro]

Why should I answer idiotic questions?

Gosh,, I should have thought this from the beginning. Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day smh.

[Dornish Whine]

This imagery was Bran seeing through Summer's eyes. I think that Bran recognizes Swords when he wakes from a wolf dream in which they were described as iron claws. In the same vein I think Bran would recognize a literal 'winged snake' as a Dragon when he awoke. However, Bran never seems to pay it much mind. I would imagine that if it were a real Dragon, then Bran would have woken up and been like - "Holy shit, guys! I just saw a Dragon!"

[Sneak]

I would like it to be a dragon, but I'm not sure what to make of it. On one hand if it was a dragon I'm pretty sure we would have heard of it by now, I don't think it could have passed by unnoticed. On the other hand, the description is very specific and I don't think even Summer can mistake a comet for a flying, winged snake that roars fire.

In conclusion: I haven't got a clue if it was a actual dragon or not :dunno:

[Little Wing]

I like to think it's a dragon, and Bran doesn't think about it because he saw it in a wolf dream and maybe forgot about it with all the trauma in his waking days that followed or he just dismissed it as not real.

And as for no one seeing the dragon I have a crackpot theory-it went back to the Land of Always Winter, lays low there, and when the Others start coming, they'll bring more than Ice Spiders with them... ;)