Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?

[msheafer33]

Personally, I've always read the dragon as being symbolic: the chaos of the sack of Winterfell allow Summer and Bran to glimpse what's on the horizon (the return of the Targaryen dragons, the possibility that Jon is a Targaryen).

The problem with this explanation is that it is entirely redundant. Bran has already seen the comet. In his greendream, he has already seen dragons stirring. We have also seen a thousand other dragon-portents, as well as some dragons themselves. What does this symbolic vision add to all that? Nothing that I can see. The "Jon Snow" angle is new, but does not relate to any feature of the vision (you might as well speculate that the comet relates to Jon Snow).

In short, under this interpretation, this vision adds nothing to the situation but confusion.

It is possible GRRM means to confuse us. But if so, I am not to blame for my interpetation.

[msheafer33]

On one point (quoted above), my memory is hazy (and I have lent my books to a friend), but doesn't Summer see the vision of a dragon while the sack of Winterfell is ongoing, or at least during the evening of the sack?

At night. During the burning. After the sack, presumably.

I remember Summer mentioning the alluring smell of meat (the dead and dying of the fight between Ramsay and Sir Rodrik), but also the sounds and smells of many living and armed men running about.

He smells men and horses. Then, later, hears their voices (dogs, horses, men) raised in response to a great roar of fire (not the dragon roar). He doesn't hear any running or vigorous activity or clashing of swords or anything like that. He remains under trees until morning, at which point all are gone.

So, to my memory, it's not just Wex and Luwin around, the sacking forces and Winterfell prisoners are still in the area, if not the castle itself.

And yet ... they cannot see Summer and Shaggydog.

Men are "around", yes. It is not clear exactly where. They are apparently watching Winterfell burning, not the shadow passing overhead in the blackness.

[7V3N]

I should add that Dany's 3 dragons required 3 apparent sacrifices--Rhaego, Mirri Maz Duur, and Drogo. Dany being in the fire may or may not be part of the ritual. Perhaps it was only required for the dragons to see her as their "mother".

Luwin bled out under the weirwood (which is near the hot pools). Perhaps his blood was what awoke the dragon in the fires of Winterfell. And more so, if Dany entering the fire was required for her to be the "mother", perhaps since nobody lived in the fire, the dragon has no master.

Or for those who believe Jon (R+L=J) was given a dragon egg at birth (as Targaryens were known to have done), perhaps that was the egg that hatched, and now the dragon is searching for Jon? This part is more towards crackpot.

ETA: For those who keep mentioning how the men who burned Winterfell never saw a shadow pass overhead--

• We do not know how large this supposed dragon is.
  
• Winterfell was burning, providing a light source other than the sun. Therefore, shadows from things above the fires would not be cast, or at least not heavily.
  

[Thoheeks Bili]

What is the source of Winterfells hot springs? Why must there always be a Stark at Winterfell?

Perhaps this is a not quite full grown dragon, say an adolescent one. Bigger than Dany has but far from full grown.

Lets say that i was confined by old magic(like that of the wall) that worked only when there was a Stark present. If they left, the warding spells would wear out and the dragon would be free to escape(if they thought to). The sacking of winterfell weakened the area that was confining to it and it escaped with a gout of flame and a roar in a cloud of dust. Dust would easily obscure a mid sized animal.

Wolves have pretty good eye sight and this wolf wasn't in the center of the town either where there would be many things going on all at once. He had undivided attention to the collapse and subsequent release of said dragon...until it went to the other side of the castle and to....................who knows where.

I am inclined to believe it was a dragon, a dragon bound by spells under Winterfell, a dragon now on the loose.

[CJ McLannister]

Why must there always be a Stark at Winterfell?

Though I don't believe in the Winterfell dragon, I thought about that too. But weren't Bran and Rickon still in the crypts at that point?

[7V3N]

Though I don't believe in the Winterfell dragon, I thought about that too. But weren't Bran and Rickon still in the crypts at that point?

Yes, they indeed were. I am more inclined to think it was Luwin dying by the weirwood, a tree known to root deep into the ground (via Arya's encounter with Beric, Bran with the Children). Bran (I think) used to try to reach the bottom of the hot springs in Winterfell with no success.

[Erudain]

Well one thing that bugs me is that there is no remark from Roose, Ramsay or other northen lords about some "odd" damage in Winterfell.

Nor does Wex make any attemp to tell (however he can) any lord about it.

He said he saw Osha and the kids after the sack so if a dragon emerged he was there and should had seen it.

Let's assume that the dragon is real and was sleeping under Winterfell's crypts due to some sort or magic/craft that kept it slumbering.

Then the sack happens and something awakens the dragon, the dragon roars, breaks through Winterfell's crypts, floor, buildings, emerges and leaves flying north.

Let's also assume that Wex was K.O during the event and didn't see it.

The image Summer sees seems to be a pretty big animal.

Such an animal emerging from under the crypts/ground will make the soil collapse and cave in forming some sort of "crater" on the courtyards or will bring down buildings or even parts of the walls when they lose its foundations....yet we see no remark about it when people arrive at WF again, they only talk about how "burned" it is.

[7V3N]

Wex is dumb, 12, and mute. And he is from the iron islands. I doubt they speak much of sky dragons in their tales to children. More likely they speak of sea dragons, krakens, etc. And that is assuming Wex saw it. A scared boy hiding in the heart tree is like to be lost to the ruckus (and there was surely a lot of it) around him, until he hears the voices of some young boys nearby.

ETA: What I want is for someone to get into those hot springs and see if they are still hot. Unfortunately, Theon never took that opportunity.

[SJC]

To me, beyond the internal question of how a large dragon has managed to avoid detection by any farmer, woodsmen or shepherd in the North, is the larger storytelling issue raised by a Winterfell dragon. Three books (over a year in story time, and a decade in publishing time) have gone by since the sack of Winterfell, and GRRM has not mentioned (or hinted at) any extant dragon other than those in Meereen. GRRM is a good storyteller, which over a lengthy story means that he tends to remind his readership of things that might be important later. For example, each book reminds us there is some question as to Jon's parentage; in ADWD we get the story of the fisherman's daughter on the Sisters as a method of reminding us of the question. Likewise, Tyrek Lannister disappeared in ACOK (just like the sack of Winterfell), and GRRM has constantly reminded us that Tyrek (or Tyrek's body) is not accounted for. To take an example that has concluded, Renly openly wondered in ACOK where Barristan was (and noted that Barristan vowed to find and support the true king), thereby priming the readers to be on the lookout for Barristan before his reveal as Arstan in ASOS. The question therefore is not just why no one within the story in the North has remarked upon a dragon, but rather, if there is a Northern dragon and it is going to play a significant (or really any) role in the story, why hasn't GRRM reminded the reader.

Instead, the Northern dragon (within the text) largely rests on a literal interpretation of part of a sentence from a wolf's perspective that includes non-literal material in the next clause. In the clause right after describing the supposed dragon, Summer states something to the effect that the gray cliffs were devouring the stars. No stars are literally being eaten, the smoke from a burning castle is just blocking them out. It's not clear to me why part of the description should be taken so literally when the next part of that sentence is clearly not meant to be literal. Too each his own, of course, but I really don't see it in the overall context of GRRM's ASOIF story and writing.

Indeed, other than Daenarys' dragons, GRRM most often uses a dragon to symbolize a person (see The Hedge Knight and The Mystery Knight).

[7V3N]

Yeah, no way anything can disappear in the North. Where is Benjen again?

The North is vast, nothing guarantees the dragon is huge like all skeptics seem to somehow know, the North is less populated than it normally is and it is normally scarcely populated. Winterfell was burned. Villages close enough to see who did it would have to be put to the sword. North of Winterfell is all mountainous. North of that is beyond the Wall. Beyond the Wall is nobody, since basically every wildling is at the Wall.

[Tagganaro]

My main problem with Wex or Luwin not seeing the dragon is that Summer describes the dragon as "roaring fire", correct? That would lead me to believe that it'd be close to impossible to miss for anyone in the area. Again, not dispositive at all, who knows what "roaring fire" really means, how loud it could be, or whether it means a literal roar or a "metaphorical" one. Again, even if the dragon roars very loudly, it's not dispositive at all- meaning Wex might know about it but is incapable of telling anyone, and Luwin did or did not tell Osha and it just isn't relevant.

I think SJC's point above is very solid as well. Maybe GRRM just doesn't want to give the game away, but I'd be much more inclined to believe in a literal dragon if there were some "clues" dropped about it or something...i.e missing or burned livestock, burned trees, or the aforementioned rumors that I feel like would abound.

None of this is remotely dispositive of course...We're debating something that doesn't have a right or wrong answer at the moment and won't have an answer to at least until TWOW. It's certainly possible that absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence as we're interpreting it.

[7V3N]

My main problem with Wex or Luwin not seeing the dragon is that Summer describes the dragon as "roaring fire", correct? That would lead me to believe that it'd be close to impossible to miss for anyone in the area. Again, not dispositive at all, who knows what "roaring fire" really means, how loud it could be, or whether it means a literal roar or a "metaphorical" one. Again, even if the dragon roars very loudly, it's not dispositive at all- meaning Wex might know about it but is incapable of telling anyone, and Luwin did or did not tell Osha and it just isn't relevant.

I think SJC's point above is very solid as well. Maybe GRRM just doesn't want to give the game away, but I'd be much more inclined to believe in a literal dragon if there were some "clues" dropped about it or something...i.e missing or burned livestock, burned trees, or the aforementioned rumors that I feel like would abound.

None of this is remotely dispositive of course...We're debating something that doesn't have a right or wrong answer at the moment and won't have an answer to at least until TWOW. It's certainly possible that absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence as we're interpreting it.

As I said before, in GRRM's Ice Dragon, the ice dragon is silent.

Luwin was dying. I doubt he would have noticed considering how close he was to death. And given he is a man with knowledge of healing, he would have probably considered it part of a fever dream or something. Remember--he was a man to dismiss all of Bran's dreams, including the one of Ned's death.

But I agree. No answer here, just all speculation on both sides.

[SJC]

Yeah, no way anything can disappear in the North. Where is Benjen again?

The North is vast, nothing guarantees the dragon is huge like all skeptics seem to somehow know, the North is less populated than it normally is and it is normally scarcely populated. Winterfell was burned. Villages close enough to see who did it would have to be put to the sword. North of Winterfell is all mountainous. North of that is beyond the Wall. Beyond the Wall is nobody, since basically every wildling is at the Wall.

That's really the point, though. We are fairly constantly reminded that Benjen is missing. This dragon, however, disappeared without further comment. That something is logistically possible is not the same thing as being probable as an aspect of the story.

[7V3N]

That's really the point, though. We are fairly constantly reminded that Benjen is missing. This dragon, however, disappeared without further comment. That something is logistically possible is not the same thing as being probable as an aspect of the story.

Well given one direwolf saw it, and Benjen was a Stark and First Ranger of the Night's Watch who went mysteriously missing despite his horse returning I think the situations are very different. You can expect people to notice Benjen is missing. You can't expect a direwolf to tell Bran that there is a dragon in the well...

And we have to see the appearance of this dragon, or else we'd never know where it came from when/if it does become apparent and well known.

ETA: When the hell did I become the biggest supporter of this dragon's existence? Haha, on my initial read I assumed it was the comet, but after the Ice Dragon I changed my mind.

[Tagganaro]

As I said before, in GRRM's Ice Dragon, the ice dragon is silent.

Luwin was dying. I doubt he would have noticed considering how close he was to death. And given he is a man with knowledge of healing, he would have probably considered it part of a fever dream or something. Remember--he was a man to dismiss all of Bran's dreams, including the one of Ned's death.

But I agree. No answer here, just all speculation on both sides.

Certainly...I'm curious in the description of the dragon "roaring" though. Roaring typically would connote noise, right? Again, doesn't have to I would think.

Wouldn't it be awesome though if Luwin told Osha about it, and if it's an ice dragon the Starks have a similar connection to it as Targs to their dragons, and Osha, Rickon, and the dragon are just chilling on Skaagos? That would be awesome.

[SJC]

Well given one direwolf saw it, and Benjen was a Stark and First Ranger of the Night's Watch who went mysteriously missing despite his horse returning I think the situations are very different. You can expect people to notice Benjen is missing. You can't expect a direwolf to tell Bran that there is a dragon in the well...

And we have to see the appearance of this dragon, or else we'd never know where it came from when/if it does become apparent and well known.

ETA: When the hell did I become the biggest supporter of this dragon's existence? Haha, on my initial read I assumed it was the comet, but after the Ice Dragon I changed my mind.

Strictly speaking, in that moment, the direwolf observer is, at least in part, Bran. But Bran never thinks or comments on the episode again (like he does later upon Summer saving Jon from the Thenns). The point with Benjen is not that the two incidents are 'on all fours,' really just that GRRM, as a general literary tool, tends to remind us of things that may come up later.

And I'm really not opposed to the idea of another dragon (and glad, rhetorically speaking, that you are sticking to your guns); I'm just really skeptical on the record thus far. I'll enjoy the story just as well whether either of us is correct in the end. Cheers.

[7V3N]

As I said before, I am not emotionally attached to either side. I just think that GRRM subtly hints a dragon there, which is disguised as an interpretation of the comet.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

I think it was just Summer seeing the red comet and interpreting it doggy style.

[msheafer33]

Instead, the Northern dragon (within the text) largely rests on a literal interpretation of part of a sentence from a wolf's perspective that includes non-literal material in the next clause. In the clause right after describing the supposed dragon, Summer states something to the effect that the gray cliffs were devouring the stars. No stars are literally being eaten, the smoke from a burning castle is just blocking them out.

Congratulations. You just proved you are better educated than a wolf. You have gone to school, and hence know that the stars are far far away, and that smoke from fire cannot literally swallow them.

However, you are abusing the term "literal". The wolf's interpretation of the visual evidence is perfectly LITERAL. It is just not CORRECT.

It's not clear to me why part of the description should be taken so literally when the next part of that sentence is clearly not meant to be literal.

Moot. Both are literal. In both cases the wolf describes what it sees in terms of what it knows and understands. That (I suppose) is why it refers to a winged snake, rather than a "dragon".

Indeed, other than Daenarys' dragons, GRRM most often uses a dragon to symbolize a person (see The Hedge Knight and The Mystery Knight).

So, are you suggesting that what Summer really saw was a person?

Seriously, I am open to the possibility that Summer misinterpreted what it saw. But the explanation has to fit. The comet does not fit, and neither does a person.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I can't believe there is no SSM on this.