Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?

[msheafer33]

My main problem with Wex or Luwin not seeing the dragon is that Summer describes the dragon as "roaring fire", correct? That would lead me to believe that it'd be close to impossible to miss for anyone in the area.

Hearing the fiery roar is not an issue. I assume everyone in the area, who was conscious at the time(possibly not Maester Luwen), heard BOTH fiery roars.

The question is whether they saw a winged snake in the air.

I am amazed on how many people keep insisting the winged snake MUST have been seen, even after being informed that it was night time. Even after it is pointed out that Summer was across the fields from Winterfell at the time.

To you people - it is time to confess. You are city folk. You have NEVER been outside, in the open countryside, on a dark night. Go on. Admit it.

[houseHB]

Jon Snow? If R+L = J is true, the dragon can just be symbolism, not a real dragon.

[FittleLinger]

Hearing the fiery roar is not an issue. I assume everyone in the area, who was conscious at the time(possibly not Maester Luwen), heard BOTH fiery roars.

The question is whether they saw a winged snake in the air.

I am amazed on how many people keep insisting the winged snake MUST have been seen, even after being informed that it was night time. Even after it is pointed out that Summer was across the fields from Winterfell at the time.

To you people - it is time to confess. You are city folk. You have NEVER been outside, in the open countryside, on a dark night. Go on. Admit it.

Yep, never. There was never an article about me in a local newspaper how on a 5-day camping trip they ended up finding me in a cave after a 25-hour long stay in there without any light or food or water.

Why are you being so offensive and keeping prejudice against people, and being so personally attacking. You don't know people around here, as well as I don't - because we are so many that there are all kinds of people.

Anyway, sorry mods for the sidetrack, but this is relevant to the point.

In the wilderness at night, the stars and moon, if there are no clouds, are like giant projectors and you see everything. If there are clouds, any sparkle of light seems like a beacon. On this dark night, I moved like a couple of kilometers on a lighter that didn't have any gas, it could only make sparkles, and it seemed like fireworks during those circumstances. A fire thing would be like blindening, and certainly geting attention.

I meant, this is on top of other evidence, I still support the slim chance of this being a real dragon, just that your exact argument right now is invalid. If it was a dark night in the wilderness, everyone in a large large radius would have seen it.

ETA" Of course, he was seeing the big fire, so the entire area would have been strongly lit.

[Tagganaro]

I can't believe there is no SSM on this.

lol, agreed. It feels like something that should be brought up more often. I mean, there might be a giant ice dragon roaming around the North and we haven't heard sh*t for 3 books now.

@FittleLinger- Ignore is a wonderful thing. It is your friend lol.

[FittleLinger]

lol, agreed. It feels like something that should be brought up more often. I mean, there might be a giant ice dragon roaming around the North and we haven't heard sh*t for 3 books now.

@FittleLinger- Ignore is a wonderful thing. It is your friend lol.

I know, that's what I've been doing recently, but what I said is relevant to the point right now :)

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Jon Snow? If R+L = J is true, the dragon can just be symbolism, not a real dragon.

This isn't a prophetic dream though. Bran is warging summer. I don't think there is any instance of prophetic visions occurring while warging.

[SerLoin]

...

I am amazed on how many people keep insisting the winged snake MUST have been seen, even after being informed that it was night time. Even after it is pointed out that Summer was across the fields from Winterfell at the time.

To you people - it is time to confess. You are city folk. You have NEVER been outside, in the open countryside, on a dark night. Go on. Admit it.

@ msheafer33 You hit that nail square!

IMO the only thing that lends credence to this "dragon" is a prophecy talking about dragons old and new (Sorry I do not have the text). There has been much speculation on where these old dragons have been hiding (Dragonstone, Winterfell, or inside the wall?).

With all that written...I still think it was a flaming arrow :ack:

[Dr. Pepper]

With all that written...I still think it was a flaming arrow :ack:

This makes the most sense. There are several instances in the books where spears are likened to serpents. Osha's spear for one, Oberyn's spear for another. I'm too lazy to do a full search, but if spears are referenced as serpents, it seems reasonable that arrows might be as well. In this vision, Summer/Bran are seeing men with weaponry. It would make sense that the winged snake is nothing more than a flaming arrow. Summer/Bran is identifying swords as man claws and armor as hardskins. Not sure why the same type of descriptors wouldn't be given to another type of man-made weapon.

[total1402]

I honestly think it was the comet, but I know if I say the show is one of my main points toward this, I will get a big "Boo". Anyway, in one of Bran's few wolf dreams depicted in the show, he is outside WF and takes a really emphasized look at the comet.

Also, when Martin was asked about this, he said something like - well it's your interpretation how an animal interprets stuff. So I'm guessing just like wolves see swords as iron claws etc, he didn't saw a literal winged snake (which is pretty much how a human would describe a dragon), but the comet.

That's my take anyway.

It would also firmly establish the supernatural link between the comet and the dragons return. We hear it from the pyromancers and Osha. But the Direwolves are magical creatures of the North and the Old Gods. If they look at a comet and think "Dragons" that sort of writes a line under that; in a sense.

[redviper9]

The problem with this explanation is that it is entirely redundant. Bran has already seen the comet. In his greendream, he has already seen dragons stirring. We have also seen a thousand other dragon-portents, as well as some dragons themselves. What does this symbolic vision add to all that? Nothing that I can see. The "Jon Snow" angle is new, but does not relate to any feature of the vision (you might as well speculate that the comet relates to Jon Snow).

In short, under this interpretation, this vision adds nothing to the situation but confusion.

It is possible GRRM means to confuse us. But if so, I am not to blame for my interpetation.

Hearing the fiery roar is not an issue. I assume everyone in the area, who was conscious at the time(possibly not Maester Luwen), heard BOTH fiery roars.

The question is whether they saw a winged snake in the air.

I am amazed on how many people keep insisting the winged snake MUST have been seen, even after being informed that it was night time. Even after it is pointed out that Summer was across the fields from Winterfell at the time.

To you people - it is time to confess. You are city folk. You have NEVER been outside, in the open countryside, on a dark night. Go on. Admit it.

Apologies in advance to the MOD for starting this post slightly off-topic.

First off, I don't think anyone here (certainly not me) "blames" you for your interpretation. That word indicates that you should be held responsible for some wrong, and I don't think you should. You and I just happen to interpret this particular passage differently...and that's fine. In a forum with this many users, not everyone will think alike. For example, I think that if Azor Ahai is indeed reborn, the most likely candidates are Jon and/or Dany. Others argue that it's Stannis, and some even argue that it's Victarion. I don't hold anything thing against them because they have compelling evidence to support their interpretations; I just happen to think that the evidence pointing to Jon and/or Dany is more convincing. Same here: I don't discount the possibility that Summer saw an actual dragon, but given the things I lay out in my answers to Tagganaro's questions, I find the symbolic/prophetic interpretation more likely...not absolutely, 100% ironclad, but more likely. Simple as that.

Second, no need to dip into the "city kid vs. country boy" well. We're not here to discuss our backgrounds -- though, if you really must know, I grew up in the country and have spent the last few years living in cities -- but theories and interpretations of ASOIAF using the text as written by GRRM.

Alright, back to the topic and your post. I think the symbolic/prophetic dragon does add something to the story. At the very least, it's one of those subtle reminders of possibly important plot points that GRRM likes to drop (e.g., different accounts of Jon's parentage, reminding us that Tyrek Lannister -- or at least his body -- has never been found, the fact that Benjen is still officially considered missing and not dead, reminding us in every pre-ADWD book about Aegon VI's alleged death). This could be to remind us or let Bran know that the dragons are coming to Westeros (remember that at this point, Dany has decided to set out west from Qarth -- she hasn't been sidetracked in Slaver's Bay yet). Or Summer's "dragon" and the comet could indeed be a herald for Jon and a clue that he is actually a Targaryen. Remember, there are varied meanings assigned to the comet by the characters of ASOIAF. For Maester Luwin, it's a wayward "bleeding star," and nothing more; Old Nan argues that it heralds the return of the dragons; Wintefell's small folk believe it's symbolic of Ned's blood being shed; Joffrey's supporters claim that it heralds a Lannister victory; Damphair sees it as a sign from the Drowned God that the time has come for the Ironborn to return to the Old Way; Melisandre believes it to be a sign of Stannis's rebirth as Azor Ahai; and Dany believes it was sent to show her what path she should follow. If Jon turns out to be Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised, the comet could easily be a herald for him.

[msheafer33]

Why are you being so offensive and keeping prejudice against people, and being so personally attacking.

Insulting? Because I suggested some of you might be city folk? I wonder what kind of offense you would take if I suggested some might be country folk.

In the wilderness at night, the stars and moon, if there are no clouds, are like giant projectors and you see everything.

What moon? No moon was mentioned?

If there are clouds, any sparkle of light seems like a beacon. On this dark night, I moved like a couple of kilometers on a lighter that didn't have any gas, it could only make sparkles, and it seemed like fireworks during those circumstances.

Dude. That's totally apples and oranges. To take a walk, on a dark night, all you need to see is the ground in front of you. In this context, a couple of sparks from a lighter should be fine. That does not mean you will necessarily see the Grizzly Bear that watches you pass within a 100 feet of it. That does not mean that when you are sitting watching a campfire, you are going to see the Owl that comes gliding past.

Here's the situation at hand. The Kingsroad runs past Winterfell, and the main gate borders the Kingsroad. Behind Winterfell are fields,and beyond the fields to the Northwest, is the Wolfswood. Summer is standing on the edge of the Wolfswood looking over the fields at Winterfell. He smells and hears, but cannot see, men, dogs and horses. Probably, the reason he cannot see them is because they are on the other side of Winterfell, on the Kingsroad side, behind the dazzling fire. They are watching it burn.

We don't know exactly where the "winged snake" was seen, but given Summer's position, and given the direction he is looking, it is probably between Winterfell and the fields. Given the speed at which it disappeared, it must be pretty close to Summer.

So the humans in this scenario are like a person, gathered around a huge bonfire, staring in fascination into the bright flames, who suddenly hears a strange noise out past the bonfire. If then ties to look out past the bonfire into the darkness beyond. What does he see? NOTHING! If he is not too dazzled, he might see the outline of the sky and the sillouette of the trees.

ETA" Of course, he was seeing the big fire, so the entire area would have been strongly lit.

That's not how bonfires affect vision. They light up the immediate area, but (especially for people watching the fire) they actually REDUCE visibility beyond the immediate area, due to glare.

I suppose it might be helpful to have a bonfire directly behind you, if you avoided looking at it and directed your eyes in the opposite direction. But we have no reason to believe that is the case.

All we have is observers, probably on the Kingsroad; Winterfell blazing to the NorthWest; fields to the NorthWest of Winterfell, and Summer to the NorthWest of the fields, in the Wolfswood, some considerable distance away. The winged snake, given the speed at which it disappeared, would probably be almost directly above Summer, at the border of the Wolfswood.

(Or not. If you want to creat problems, and discredit the known facts, you could easily construct a scenario inconsistent with the known facts).

For all we know, the flames of Winterfell may be directly between the dragon and any observer. And even if not, nobody would see anything but blackness due to the glare.

The dark night hides alot. There is a reason people almost never see bats (they are actually pretty common). Owls are also rarely seen.

At night, in my tiny backyard, I have trouble finding my cat. Increase the size of the yard to the size of a small field, and I would have trouble finding a cow. Extend my holdings to multiple fields, extending to the edge of a giant forest, and I would have trouble seeing King Kong ... ESPECIALLY if there were a giant bonfire between me and what I was trying to see.

[msheafer33]

IMO the only thing that lends credence to this "dragon" is a prophecy talking about dragons old and new (Sorry I do not have the text). There has been much speculation on where these old dragons have been hiding (Dragonstone, Winterfell, or inside the wall?).

There is also all that talk, from Melisandre, of stone dragons being awakened by blood and fire. There was plenty of both at Winterfell.

With all that written...I still think it was a flaming arrow.

Not sure if your serious. But why would a flaming arrow travel all the way from Winterfell to the borders of the Wolfswood? I don't know how extensive are the "fields" and holdings that separate Winterfell from the edge of the Forest, but I would be very surprised if they were less than the effective range of an arrow.

[redviper9]

Well one thing that bugs me is that there is no remark from Roose, Ramsay or other northen lords about some "odd" damage in Winterfell.

Nor does Wex make any attemp to tell (however he can) any lord about it.

He said he saw Osha and the kids after the sack so if a dragon emerged he was there and should had seen it.

Let's assume that the dragon is real and was sleeping under Winterfell's crypts due to some sort or magic/craft that kept it slumbering.

Then the sack happens and something awakens the dragon, the dragon roars, breaks through Winterfell's crypts, floor, buildings, emerges and leaves flying north.

Let's also assume that Wex was K.O during the event and didn't see it.

The image Summer sees seems to be a pretty big animal.

Such an animal emerging from under the crypts/ground will make the soil collapse and cave in forming some sort of "crater" on the courtyards or will bring down buildings or even parts of the walls when they lose its foundations....yet we see no remark about it when people arrive at WF again, they only talk about how "burned" it is.

This.

I started thinking about this a few minutes ago. You're right: neither Ramsay, his "boys," nor any of the Dreadfort men who might have participated in the sacking notice anything off about the damage. I know we don't have a POV for any of them, but Theon certainly would have noted something when they set to repairing the damage (e.g., "they found the damage worse than they remembered," or, "Ramsay noted to his father that he saw new damage"). The crypts also seem to be largely intact, and we are given no indication of structural damage that isn't attributed to the sacking. Of course, the dragon could have been small enough so as to not provoke any large-scale damage, but the "dragon" seems to be described as relatively large.

[Alta1r]

...GRRM, as a general literary tool, tends to remind us of things that may come up later.

I think more than anything else, this has been the most convincing argument so far, for me. I see the "animal-vision" side as well as the literal interpretation side. As msheafer33 has pointed out, there are multiple logically valid ways to connect the dots between Summer seeing a real dragon and the dragon remaining incognito for a year, given what we have (and don't have) in the text. However, GRRM's tendency to keep foreshadowing/reminding us of things that are to come/questions that haven't been answered yet makes me believe he wouldn't just mention the dragon here and then ignore it for three books.

It could certainly be the case that we just can't see yet which text so far foreshadows/references this dragon because we don't know any features about this dragon. For example, Theon commenting that at least Hodor knows his name never occured to me as foreshadowing because at that point in time I hadn't even imagined something like Reek happening and it just seemed like a random thought he had. Only after Theon turned into Reek did that foreshadowing stick out from the rest of the text. Similarly, we might have seen plenty of mention of/foreshadowing about this dragon already in the text but don't actually identify it as such because future events and/or details about this dragon have yet to be revealed.

That being said, the fact that, as of yet, I can't see any mention of this dragon after that Summer vision makes me believe that GRRM either was writing in "animal-vision" for some normal event (i.e. a flaming arrow) or is going to write something highly unusual.

[DaveRoid]

Answer me one question, was the Hot springs under winterfell disrupted/dispersed after the sack? Anyone got the supporting text?

if so it suggests something sinister indeed. If not it was just symbolism.

[msheafer33]

You're right: neither Ramsay, his "boys," nor any of the Dreadfort men who might have participated in the sacking notice anything off about the damage. I know we don't have a POV for any of them, but Theon certainly would have noted something when they set to repairing the damage (e.g., "they found the damage worse than they remembered," or, "Ramsay noted to his father that he saw new damage").

I don't understand the assumptions behind this argument. What sort of damage do you assume the dragon must have done to Winterfell? Why is it necessarily true that Roose Bolton has, among his associates, a dragon-damage expert, who knows the difference between dragon-damage and fire damage, who can tell the difference even where the fire is a raging inferno so hot it can warp the huge iron outer gates? Why do you assume this hypothetical dragon-damage expert would have found it essential to relay his findings to Theon, of all people.

All we know about this dragon is that Summer saw the dragon fly over him, while Summer was positioned some distance (perhaps a half-mile or more) from Winterfell.

[7V3N]

This isn't a prophetic dream though. Bran is warging summer. I don't think there is any instance of prophetic visions occurring while warging.

I brought it up earlier. It hurts my point, sad to say. Jon has one through Ghost, seeing a tree Bran. Not sure if it counts as "prophetic" but it is certainly unordinary.

[redviper9]

I don't understand the assumptions behind this argument. What sort of damage do you assume the dragon must have done to Winterfell? Why is it necessarily true that Roose Bolton has, among his associates, a dragon-damage expert, who knows the difference between dragon-damage and fire damage, who can tell the difference even where the fire is a raging inferno so hot it can warp the huge iron outer gates? Why do you assume this hypothetical dragon-damage expert would have found it essential to relay his findings to Theon, of all people.

All we know about this dragon is that Summer saw the dragon fly over him, while Summer was positioned some distance (perhaps a half-mile or more) from Winterfell.

I'm not making any assumptions, just speculating off of Erudain's post.

Roose Bolton and Co. wouldn't need a "dragon-damage expert" to notice that something might be off. What they need would be the people (Ramsay, his "boys," other Dreadfort men) that were responsible for putting Winterfell to the torch at the end of ACOK. Dragons seem to leave a mark whenever they turn their attentions to large stone structures (e.g., Harrenhal, Meereen's pyramids). If we believe that Summer saw an actual dragon escaping the confines of Winterfell (whether it had been in the walls, in the crypts, or beneath the hot springs), it would stand to reason -- given how GRRM has described dragon behavior throughout the series -- that there would be physical signs of the escape. Ramsay and his men might not have photographic memories, but they may have noticed if there was damage that wasn't there when they left (something along the lines of, "hey, there wasn't a smoking crater in the yard when last we were here," or, "these walls were still standing when we left," or, "the gates weren't this badly melted"). Again, just speculating.

As for Theon, he wouldn't need to be told directly. He's in such a sorry state that he's basically given freedom of the castle because no one sees him as any sort of threat. We see that he overhears things during his wanderings. And, because he's so non-threatening, the people in Winterfell can be surprisingly open with him (e.g., Lady Dustin).

[SerLoin]

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone.

...

I was being serious about the arrow.

Nothing in this quote states a vector? What about the wolfswood? Like a wolf is great at judging the distance of things flying in the air? This is wolf-o-vision...it could be anything. And I would bet on anything else vs a dragon.

I know dragons are cool, but not everthing is a dragon.

If we assume every methaphor or person is a targ or dragon it just seems desperate.

As to one of the previous posts about the hot springs. IIRC it is observed that the greenhouse glass is shattered and the walls that used to have hot water from the springs running through them have been cracked from the fire and the hot water was gurgling on the ground.

[A Book Would Be My Sigil]

I'm not a huge fan of the "flaming arrow" theory (because the fantastical in me wants another dragon so very badly), but it isn't entirely implausible, either. When Summer and Shaggydog leave the edge of the forest and begin to trek through the fields back to Winterfell, mention is made of them passing "man dens made of wood and grass" and bodies being covered in crows. This seems to suggest that some of Winterfells subjects lived in hovels much closer to the edge of the forest than the castle itself, and they were slain in the sack of Winterfell, as well. So the fighting might have been close enough to the forest for Summer's keen eyes to have picked up on a flaming arrow trailing fire. And the description of the winged snake comes directly on the tail of the description of iron "man-claws and hardskin" and how dangerous those smells were...but not as dangerous as the smell of fire. Then immediately comes the "winged snake whose roar was a river of fire" that makes Summer bare his teeth. It just seems like a progression of talking about dangerous weapons.

Most damning for the Winterfell Dragon, and this has already been said, but I find it strange that Bran wouldn't mention to any of the others that he saw a dragon. When he awakes he's very anxious to tell Osha about the burning castle and dead men...but makes no mention of seeing a dragon flying overhead? It seems simply unreal that that wouldn't rate as important enough for him to mention.