Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?

[CJDTrismegistus]

I can see it being a comet.

And how does a comet look like "great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame"?

Not being funny or anything but I can in no way find any relation to the comet in that description. The comet looks more like a bleeding wound or a sword as Gendry and Arya remark - swords are straight and snakes are.....well "snakey". ;)

Besides, if it were the comet, why would it just disapear after Summer snarled at it?

[protar]

Also why is this "winged serpent" so new and surprising to Summer if it's the comet, which has been around for months by the end of COK.

[redriver]

And how does a comet look like "great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame"?

Not being funny or anything but I can in no way find any relation to the comet in that description. The comet looks more like a bleeding wound or a sword as Gendry and Arya remark - swords are straight and snakes are.....well "snakey". ;)

Besides, if it were the comet, why would it just disapear after Summer snarled at it?

I think this may be the last sighting of the comet in the books.Perhaps it is disintegrating?

Snakes can be straight too!

Comets were thought of as dragons across worldwide mythology to humans never mind wolves.

[Stark in Winterfell]

I honestly think it was the comet, but I know if I say the show is one of my main points toward this, I will get a big "Boo". Anyway, in one of Bran's few wolf dreams depicted in the show, he is outside WF and takes a really emphasized look at the comet.

Also, when Martin was asked about this, he said something like - well it's your interpretation how an animal interprets stuff. So I'm guessing just like wolves see swords as iron claws etc, he didn't saw a literal winged snake (which is pretty much how a human would describe a dragon), but the comet.

That's my take anyway.

I agree. I think it's the red comet

[protar]

I think this may be the last sighting of the comet in the books.Perhaps it is disintegrating?

Snakes can be straight too!

Comets were thought of as dragons across worldwide mythology to humans never mind wolves.

Comets don't work like that.

[CJDTrismegistus]

The last mention of the comet actually being in the sky is in Tyrion's chapter when he's in Kings Landing. There is no further reference to the comet being in the sky after this point, only references to it having been in the sky. Tyrion's chapter is set much earlier in the book than the Bran chapter so I doubt the comet was even in the sky anymore.

[redriver]

Comets don't work like that.

From Wikipedia-

Comets are also known to break up into fragments, as happened with Comet 73P/Schwassmann–Wachmann 3 starting in 1995.^[51]

This breakup may be triggered by tidal gravitational forces from the Sun or a large planet, by an "explosion" of volatile material, or for other reasons not fully understood.

[CJDTrismegistus]

From Wikipedia-

Comets are also known to break up into fragments, as happened with Comet 73P/Schwassmann–Wachmann 3 starting in 1995.^[51]

This breakup may be triggered by tidal gravitational forces from the Sun or a large planet, by an "explosion" of volatile material, or for other reasons not fully understood.

I don't think we should use scientific analysis of real world astronomy to explain a fantasy novel. We don't even know if the world this story is set in orbits a sun in the conventional sense!

[protar]

From Wikipedia-

Comets are also known to break up into fragments, as happened with Comet 73P/Schwassmann–Wachmann 3 starting in 1995.^[51]

This breakup may be triggered by tidal gravitational forces from the Sun or a large planet, by an "explosion" of volatile material, or for other reasons not fully understood.

My bad, I stand corrected. But would that make it go squiggly and snake-like? Where would the wings come from, and the river of flame? And more importantly, I don't think Martin would really go into sci-fi explanations like that. It seems an incredibly convoluted way of explaining how a comet might look like a dragon.

[Silent Sparrow]

From Wikipedia-

Comets are also known to break up into fragments, as happened with Comet 73P/Schwassmann–Wachmann 3 starting in 1995.^[51]

This breakup may be triggered by tidal gravitational forces from the Sun or a large planet, by an "explosion" of volatile material, or for other reasons not fully understood.

But would it breaking up into pieces make it be snaky?

[redriver]

By "snake" the wolf is simply describing the "long red tail" of the comet,as Jon describes it when he sees Mormont's Torch on the Fist of the First Men.

The "winged" part could be how the comet itself appears as it's exploding or disintegrating.

I don't like this idea of dragon beneath Winterfell emerging fully grown.The books tell us dragons wither in confined spaces.We are not told that they hibernate either.

I would not rule out the possibility of a dragon egg down there but I think it unlikely.

[CJDTrismegistus]

It seems the argument for the comet relies on introducing unknown factors(such as the comet breaking up) into the equation so that it fits the description that Summer gives. The dragon argument needs no such tampering. Thoughout the text Summer describes everything literally, why not the dragon? Grey cliffs = Winterfell's walls. Manclaws = swords. Great winged snake = dragon. Simples! :)

[redriver]

It seems the argument for the comet relies on introducing unknown factors(such as the comet breaking up) into the equation so that it fits the description that Summer gives. The dragon argument needs no such tampering. Thoughout the text Summer describes everything literally, why not the dragon? Grey cliffs = Winterfell's walls. Manclaws = swords. Great winged snake = dragon. Simples! :)

He does not describe things literally,he describes them as a direwolf understands them,as your examples illustrate.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

[CJDTrismegistus]

He does not describe things literally,he describes them as a direwolf understands them,as your examples illustrate.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Just noticed this in an earlier chapter when Bran is warged with Summer -

"It was dark amongst the tree, but the comet lit his way"

Why would he recognise the comet in this wolf dream but then think of it as a great winged snake a few chapters later?

Also, when Summer and Shaggydog are locked in the Godswood when the Ironborn take Winterfell, Bran is warged with Summer again and describes a chain locking the gate to the Godswood as "a black iron snake coiled tight about a bar and post". This description seems pretty literal and very recognizable. When Summer describes a black iron smake it's pretty obvious it's a chain, so why, when Summer describes a great winged snake should it be any less obvious?

[7V3N]

I doubt that science bit can apply here, but we cannot rule it out. GRRM was sci-fi before fantasy.

[protar]

He does not describe things literally,he describes them as a direwolf understands them,as your examples illustrate.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

They are literal descriptions. They're how you'd describe such things if you didn't know what they were. And as pointed out, Summer is already familiar with the comet. The only way that the the winged serpent could be the comet is if Martin is either writing inconsistently or introducing unknown sci-fi elements to the plot of a fantasy novel and/or if he's trolling us.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Bran has no reason to believe that Dragon's still exist though. He's been told that they've been extinct for hundreds of years and none of the essos rumors have reached him.

But Bran knew that dragons were alive before the he warged Summer and saw the winged serpent. The 3 eyed crow showed him Asshai while he in in the coma and he saw dragons stirring in the sunlight. The rest of his coma dream was all real as he would come to learn when he awoke ( Caitlyn with the bloody dagger, Ned arguing with the King, cold Jon sleeping at the Wall), so he would have to assume the dragons he saw moving were actually alive. He might not mention it because some things are unspeakable (in their scariness to a kid).

[protar]

But Bran knew that dragons were alive before the he warged Summer and saw the winged serpent. The 3 eyed crow showed him Asshai while he in in the coma and he saw dragons stirring in the sunlight. The rest of his coma dream was all factual and real and he would come to learn when he awoke ( Caitlyn with the bloody dagger, Ned arguing with the King, cold Jon sleeping at the Wall), so he would have to assume the dragons he saw moving were actually alive. He might not mention it because some things are unspeakable (in their scariness to a kid).

Or because he was kind of delirious and didn't remember everything that went on. I expect both his coma dream, and his early warging experiences before he learned full control where pretty damn trippy. He might not remember everything (remember he'd spent three days in summer's mind before seeing the dragon, so he'd be in a wolfish mindset, which isn't going to hold onto details it considers insignificant.) or think it's real.

[redriver]

Just noticed this in an earlier chapter when Bran is warged with Summer -

"It was dark amongst the tree, but the comet lit his way"

Why would he recognise the comet in this wolf dream but then think of it as a great winged snake a few chapters later?

Also, when Summer and Shaggydog are locked in the Godswood when the Ironborn take Winterfell, Bran is warged with Summer again and describes a chain locking the gate to the Godswood as "a black iron snake coiled tight about a bar and post". This description seems pretty literal and very recognizable. When Summer describes a black iron smake it's pretty obvious it's a chain, so why, when Summer describes a great winged snake should it be any less obvious?

During the early days of Bran warging Summer,the boy is not always in control.Jojen has to urge him to take control.

I would say when Bran is dominant you get more human descriptions and the opposite when Summer is the boss.

[protar]

During the early days of Bran warging Summer,the boy is not always in control.Jojen has to urge him to take control.

I would say when Bran is dominant you get more human descriptions and the opposite when Summer is the boss.

I'm not exactly sure when that quote was as I wasn't the one who quoted it, but if it was an earlier chapter then Bran is dreaming and not in control. The first instance we have of Bran intruding into Summer's thoughts IIRC is during Theon's taking of Winterfell when he urges Summer towards the Sentinel Tree. And I'm fairly sure that in this instance (and further instances.) Bran's thoughts are italicised to indicate it's not the wolf's thought.