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Question: Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage and other decisions


The Wolves

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So I keep reading about how some people blame Catelyn for kidnapping Tyrion and saying she started the war? Now I dislike Catelyn a lot but how is her kidnapping Tyrion the reason the war started. Didn't Renly proclaim himself king even tho he did not know that Robert didn't have any true born children? Didn't Stannis already know about Cersei's spawns not being Robert's and would have named himself king once Robert died? Greyjoy would have named himself king because that is what he does rebell every chance he gets.

Now I doubt Jory and Ned's men would have died at that time cause Jamie would have not confronted Ned and ordered his men killed. But Ned would have found out about Cersei's children eventually warned her and given Cersei time to act. I really don't see how Cat taking Tyrion would have started the war of the Five Kings. Ned would still be taken hostage and Robb would have Ross up in rebellion to free his father and sisters. The Baratheons would have still tried to get the crown both believing they are the rightful king and Greyjoy are just losers who try to be something they arent and would have tried to name himself king either way.

So how is taking Tyrion Catelyn's fault for a war that was already in the making? This isn't a bash thread just a question that I'm asking

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If she didn't, then the Lannisters probably wouldn't have harassed the Riverlands and the hole hunting of Gregor Clegane thing wouldn't have happened. Ned would've went hunting with Robert, or would've stopped him going, because he would've been able to walk. Also, Sansa & Arya would be safe in Winterfell because Ned wouldn't have been out of action so long.

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The war would have happened in one way or another, regardless of Cat's antics. People are just not very nice to Cat a lot of the time, often (though not always) because they dislike her because of what she said to Jon, and like to lay the blame for Ned's ineptitude on his wife.

Cat's actions caused Tywin to start raiding, apparently with the aim of drawing Ned west and capturing him to use as a bargaining chip for Tyrion. Jaime, unaware of this, attacked Ned, which foiled his father's plans, so the whole thing, in its likely consequences, fizzled out. Robert, utterly unpredictably, absented himself from ruling, when he heard about Cat's actions, which weakened Ned's position, but you can't really blame Cat for Robert's weird decisions. If Ned had kept his mouth shut about the children and waited until Robert returned he would have had less of a problem.

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The war would have happened in one way or another, regardless of Cat's antics. People are just not very nice to Cat a lot of the time, often (though not always) because they dislike her because of what she said to Jon, and like to lay the blame for Ned's ineptitude on his wife.

Cat's actions caused Tywin to start raiding, apparently with the aim of drawing Ned west and capturing him to use as a bargaining chip for Tyrion. Jaime, unaware of this, attacked Ned, which foiled his father's plans, so the whole thing, in it's likely consequences, fizzled out. Robert, utterly unpredictably, absented himself from ruling, when he heard about Cat's actions, which weakened Ned's position, but you can't really blame Cat for Robert's weird decisions. If Ned had kept his mouth shut about the children and waited until Robert returned he would have had less of a problem.

He might not have had to wait for his return if he wasn't out cold so long, he might've figured it out sooner or went hunting with Robert, which could've changed things drastically.

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Now I doubt Jory and Ned's men would have died at that time cause Jamie would have not confronted Ned and ordered his men killed. But Ned would have found out about Cersei's children eventually warned her and given Cersei time to act. I really don't see how Cat taking Tyrion would have started the war of the Five Kings. Ned would still be taken hostage and Robb would have Ross up in rebellion to free his father and sisters. The Baratheons would have still tried to get the crown both believing they are the rightful king and Greyjoy are just losers who try to be something they arent and would have tried to name himself king either way.

Quite possibly if he wasn't injured, he would have discovered the truth of Cersei's kids before Robert went hunting, he would've been able to tell Robert without giving Cersei as much of a chance to murder him.

He'd still want to send the girls home, so Sansa would still make her comment bout Joffery being a golden lion, unlike Robert.

No milk of the poppy to cloud his judgement. If it did.

If she didn't, then the Lannisters probably would have no reason or motive to harass the Riverlands and the hole hunting of Gregor Clegane thing wouldn't have happened. So the BwB would never have been formed. Ned would've went hunting with Robert, or would've stopped him going, because he would've been able to walk. Also, Sansa & Arya would be safe in Winterfell because Ned wouldn't have been out of action so long.

This.

Cat would have been back in Winterfell, possibly able to dissuade Robb from calling his banners.

Tyrion wouldn't have armed the hills tribes, reducing Tywin's forces.

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That's another good point, Tyrion's tribesmen were vital in slowing down Stannis on his march towards KL, even if the rest of the war with the north vs the lannisters went the same, without the hill tribes Stannis would've been on KL in no time at all. He would've also had warning of the possible Tyrell attack because all of his outriders wouldn't be dead.

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Catelyn is Princip. The trigger that started the whole damn thing. I personally think what she did was cunning and brave, considering what she knew about her son's attempted murder. She just didn't realise how crazy her sister had become and how LF is a chronic liar.

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Tywin attacked the riverlands as a direct response to Cat taking Tyrion, initially it was raids but as soon as Robert died it was a full scale invasion which resulted in thousands dying. If she hadn't War would have started anyways as soon as Ned was taken prisoner - Robb would have still called the banners only Tywin would have been in the south fighting Renly(He would have underestimated Robb - thinking him of little consequence) and the full strength of the riverlords would have joined Robb(I'm guessing that's 30-35k men easy).

Apart from that catelyn made other pretty dumb decisions - Forcing Ned to go down South and become Hand, telling Ned to trust Littlefinger, trusting littlefinger herself, being one of the worst negotiators in history of 7 kingdoms(those were shitty terms she got from Frey) , not going to bitterbridge to get the tyrells on Robb's side when Renly died, Freeing Jaime.

So overall considering all those decisions she deserves some hate.

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Hasn't everything happened because of the twisted plots of Littlefinger? He's the one who convinced Lysa to murder Jon Arryn, and he's the one who manipulated Cat into believing that Tyrion was the one who sent the assassin to Bran. As far as I'm concerned, that cheaky bastard is the main antagonist of the entire series.

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Catelyn is Princip. The trigger that started the whole damn thing. I personally think what she did was cunning and brave, considering what she knew about her son's attempted murder. She just didn't realise how crazy her sister had become and how LF is a chronic liar.

Cat realizes this herself. I think, in the end the war was coming anyway- LF was pushing it that way and Varys and Illyrio were as well, but Cat started the war. It's difficult to dispute that. Ned caused a lot of the rest of the problems though by telling Cersei that he knew the truth. As Varys says, "The wine slowed him and the boar opened his chest, but it was your mercy that killed the king." As much as I dislike Cat, Ned started this as much as Cat did IMO. Though Ned was acting honorably and Cat was acting recklessly.

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Hasn't everything happened because of the twisted plots of Littlefinger? He's the one who convinced Lysa to murder Jon Arryn, and he's the one who manipulated Cat into believing that Tyrion was the one who sent the assassin to Bran. As far as I'm concerned, that cheaky bastard is the main antagonist of the entire series.

He and Varys, yes.

Welcome to the forums. :)

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Cat realizes this herself. I think, in the end the war was coming anyway- LF was pushing it that way and Varys and Illyrio were as well, but Cat started the war. It's difficult to dispute that. Ned caused a lot of the rest of the problems though by telling Cersei that he knew the truth. As Varys says, "The wine slowed him and the boar opened his chest, but it was your mercy that killed the king." As much as I dislike Cat, Ned started this as much as Cat did IMO. Though Ned was acting honorably and Cat was acting recklessly.

I think in Westeros, acting honorably IS acting recklessly.

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I think in Westeros, acting honorably IS acting recklessly.

True, I meant more that Ned has a better excuse for doing something reckless (and stupid,) IMO. Ned does it because he wants to spare Cersei and her children from Robert's anger. He does it for selfless reasons after considering the consequences of not doing it (he's just not that smart.) Cat on the other hand has an infuriating proclivity IMO to act without any regard for the consequences.

Edited for grammar.

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I like how people blame cat for the war and completely forgetting the real trigger.. Jaime throwing bran from the windows.

But by that same reasoning you could argue that Bran climbing the tower triggered the war. Or Jaime and Cersei's affair, or Robert wanting to make Ned Hand, or Robert never loving Cersei as he loved Lyanna, or Tywin for marrying Cersei to Robert, or Rhaegar for running off with Lyanna, or Lyanna... ad infinitum.

Those were all factors, but Cat's taking Tyrion was the immediate trigger, because it launched Tywin's raiding of the Riverlands: the first skirmishes of the war.

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The Starks weren't convinced that the Lannisters were behind Bran's fall until Joffrey's incompetent assassin showed up. I'd say that Joffrey triggered the war as much as Cat did.

I do like the complete unpredictability of Catelyn and Tyrion happening to meet on the road and Catelyn deciding on the spur of the moment to arrest him. That must have caught Varys, Littlefinger, Tywin, and all the other schemers off guard. I wonder how many plans Catelyn disrupted with her arrest.

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In my opinion Jofferey started everything

With his stupid assassination attempt on Bran to make every suspicious that it wasn't just a fall

And then his execution of Ned just blew it waaaay out of proportion. So in the end it was the whiny blonde haired crazy fuck who is the real antagonist.

Not Littlefinger, he just worked with all the chaos, which is what he excels at

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