Question: Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage and other decisions

[Jolene Brown]

It was Lysa's intent that Tyrion die on the Highroad, but she is a whole other kettle of fish

Cat was there and she did nothing. She is also culpable.

I like Cat a lot - she takes way too much criticism. She is not solely responsible for the war by any means. I do not necessarily even think she started it. But her kidnapping of Tyrion is just indefensible, and that is what it is. I chose my words poorly - I did not mean that she literally intended for him to be murdered, but that it basically what Lysa tried to do, and Cat did not do anything at all to try to stop it. Her actions are totally incompatible with any ideal of justice and that is why Robert (the King in whose name she supposedly arrested Tyrion) ordered Ned to have Tyrion released.

[ab aeterno]

Why would Catelyn take Tyrion to the Vale to be murdered? This could've been done immediately after she captured him, after all. The whole trial and sending him off alone on the dangerous road were Lysa's idea.

And Tyrion clearly suspected Jaime and Cersei were responsible for crippling Bran, yet kept silent, so he wasn't that innocent.

Wrong. The main point of Gregor's raid was to commit as much atrocities as possible so to provoke the Tully and Ned to retaliate.Plenty of innocents were murdered.

"“They rode down my ’prentice boy,” said a squat man with a smith’s muscles and a bandage around his head. He had put on his finest clothes to come to court, but his breeches were patched, his cloak travel-stained and dusty. “Chased him back and forth across the fields on their horses, poking at him with their lances like it was a game, them laughing and the boy stumbling and screaming till the big one pierced him clean through.”

Ser Raymun Darry took up the tale. “At Wendish Town, the people sought shelter in their holdfast, but the walls were timbered. The raiders piled straw against the wood and burnt them all alive. When the Wendish folk opened their gates to flee the fire, they shot them down with arrows as they came running out, even women with suckling babes.”

Fair enough, it's late and I made a couple of mistakes, I'm happy to admit that. I didn't remember that at the time but I do now. Apologies.

But seriously? Tyrion not telling Cat that he thinks Jaime and Cersei injured Bran? That doesn't make Tyrion guilty. That's what makes Cat guilty- she arrests Tyrion purely because she thinks that he did it. She has no evidence whatsoever.

And as Jolene said, she took him to the Vale under false pretences. Cat even knew that it would likely mean war, she said so herself when Tyrion questioned where they were going.

[Jolene Brown]

I ma confused now - are you now denying that she made the arrest in public in the name of the king, or since the text proves you wrong, you are just saying that she didn't mean it?

Come on.

I didn't mean to suggest that she didn't make the arrest in the name of the king. What I meant was that if her intent was truly to do the king's justice, she should have taken Tyrion to King's Landing TO the king, not say she was going to Winterfell and bring him to the Vale.

[lilenadheas]

She said she was going to take him to Winterfell too - she didn't do that, did she? So how does anything else she said have any credibility? She brought him to Lysa and did nothing when Lysa tried to set him up to die in the trial, and she did nothing when Lysa sent him off down the high road, again with the clear intent that he die. Those are her actions, and they are completely inconsistent with her caring about any kind of justice.

Because she knew she had a better chance of getting to the Eyrie without Tywin's forces catching up with them.It is a lie but it doesn't really give us leave to disbelieve everything she says. Also, Cat doesn't have any power in the Eyrie, so persuasion of her mad sister would have been her only option. Didn't she object to Lysa as well though? I can't quite recall.

[David Selig]

She said she was going to take him to Winterfell too - she didn't do that, did she? So how does anything else she said have any credibility? She brought him to Lysa and did nothing when Lysa tried to set him up to die in the trial, and she did nothing when Lysa sent him off down the high road, again with the clear intent that he die. Those are her actions, and they are completely inconsistent with her caring about any kind of justice.

Huh? Catelyn told Lysa the trial was a farce and tried to stop it.

As for doing nothing when Tyrion was sent on the high road to die - what could she do against Lysa's wishes? Nothing.

[ab aeterno]

Because she knew she had a better chance of getting to the Eyrie without Tywin's forces catching up with them.It is a lie but it doesn't really give us leave to disbelieve everything she says. Also, Cat doesn't have any power in the Eyrie, so persuasion of her mad sister would have been her only option. Didn't she object to Lysa as well though? I can't quite recall.

According to the maps, it is only marginally further to the Eyrie than to KL, and far closer to KL than to Casterly Rock. The journey to KL would have been far safer as well. She took him to Lysa because she knew Lysa hater the Lannisters and believed that Cersei would prevent Tyrion from being found guilty in KL. That, and she didn't want people to know she'd been to KL.

[Jolene Brown]

Huh? Catelyn told Lysa the trial was a farce and tried to stop it.

As for doing nothing when Tyrion was sent on the high road to die - what could she do against Lysa's wishes? Nothing.

All of this is why she never should have brought him to the Vale in the first place. She could have taken custody of Tyrion and asked the Blackfish to help her bring him to King's Landing. She could have tried to do something. He was supposedly her prisoner. Instead, she just lets Lysa send him off to die.

[Daena the Defiant]

All of this is why she never should have brought him to the Vale in the first place. She could have taken custody of Tyrion and asked the Blackfish to help her bring him to King's Landing. She could have tried to do something. He was supposedly her prisoner. Instead, she just lets Lysa send him off to die.

Should she have gotten into a fist fight with Lysa to let her concerns be known? Perhaps offered to walk him home herself?

[Barty]

Catelyn had no right to arrest Tyrion - especially considering that she had no proof(except the word of a man whose love she had spurned).

also she was in the riverlands - she could have gone to a number to castles - harrenhall, stone hedge, riverrun, darry, the twins - why did she choose the dangerous road to the vale??

[Jolene Brown]

Should she have gotten into a fist fight with Lysa to let her concerns be known? Perhaps offered to walk him home herself?

She escorted him there, didn't she? She took custody of him and brought him to the Vale - she can't just wash her hands of the whole situation when it is no longer convenient, no.

[David Selig]

Do you really think there was any chance of Robert and the Lannisters in court allowing any kind of justice for Tyrion in KL even if he was guilty and there was plenty of evidence? Come on, even Ned who was all kinds of delusional about Robert doubted it after Lady's death, and rightly so.

[Daena the Defiant]

She escorted him there, didn't she? She took custody of him and brought him to the Vale - she can't just wash her hands of the whole situation when it is no longer convenient, no.

What would you suggest she do? By the laws by which they were all accepting of (trial by combat) he was a free man: take him into custody again and walk with him under guard?

[ab aeterno]

Catelyn had no right to arrest Tyrion - especially considering that she had no proof(except the word of a man whose love she had spurned).

also she was in the riverlands - she could have gone to a number to castles - harrenhall, stone hedge, riverrun, darry, the twins - why did she choose the dangerous road to the vale??

And someone she knew to have a hated of the Lannisters. Even if Lysa hadn't been crazy, Cat never intended for Tyrion to have a fair trial or she would have taken him to a neutral location. All the Lords are sworn to uphold the King's justice.

Do you really think there was any chance of Robert and the Lannisters in court allowing any kind of justice for Tyrion in KL even if he was guilty and there was plenty of evidence? Come on, even Ned who was all kinds of delusional about Robert doubted it after Lady's death, and rightly so.

Do you really think there was any chance of Tyrion getting a fair trial at the Eyrie?

[Jolene Brown]

Do you really think there was any chance of Robert and the Lannisters in court allowing any kind of justice for Tyrion in KL even if he was guilty and there was plenty of evidence? Come on, even Ned who was all kinds of delusional about Robert doubted it after Lady's death, and rightly so.

If she had no intention of letting Robert have anything to do with the situation, because she doesn't trust him to be fair, then how can we say that she was truly arresting him in the name of the king? I get that those are her words, but they are completely inconsistent with her actions.

[ab aeterno]

What would you suggest she do? By the laws by which they were all accepting of (trial by combat) he was a free man: take him into custody again and walk with him under guard?

I think it would be customary to give a lord protection as they left your lands.

[Jolene Brown]

What would you suggest she do? By the laws by which they were all accepting of (trial by combat) he was a free man: take him into custody again and walk with him under guard?

I would suggest that she should have brought him to Robert in the first place. Once she failed to do that, then it is hard to blame Tywin for his response, although I certainly think he is responsible for a gajillion other crimes.

[ab aeterno]

I would suggest that she should have brought him to Robert in the first place. Once she failed to do that, then it is hard to blame Tywin for his response, although I certainly think he is responsible for a gajillion other crimes.

Yeah, to be very clear, not saying that Tywin isn't a douche, and isn't guilty of a huge number of crimes, including targeting civilians, but Robb Stark does the same while Cat is with him, and his response to Cat taking Tyrion is the same as Robb's when Ned is taken.

[Daena the Defiant]

Do you really think there was any chance of Tyrion getting a fair trial at the Eyrie?

That's a side issue - her intention was never to take him to the Eyrie for trial - once she had him in custody she ultimately planned on taking him back to Winterfell: She sidestepped whatever pursuers they had by saying out loud "We go to Kings Landing!" and then going to the Eyrie thinking "hey, it's close, hey my sister - who as far as I know right now isn't at all crazy - reigns there and there I'll have access to ravens and men and resources."

She didn't think "aha! now that I have the foul imp in my clutches, let's go to the Eyrie and have a silly trial! I hope he dies on the way!"

Once she got to the Eyrie she was aghast at her sister and her decisions but she was not in a position to countermand her..

[Daena the Defiant]

I think it would be customary to give a lord protection as they left your lands.

That would fall on Lysa then, wouldn't it?

[Daena the Defiant]

I would suggest that she should have brought him to Robert in the first place. Once she failed to do that, then it is hard to blame Tywin for his response, although I certainly think he is responsible for a gajillion other crimes.

That's like saying that the family of arrested defendant is justified in burning down a school because the cops took the defendant to a different police station.