Why all the vitriol against book 4 and book 5 on Amazon.com?

[Khal Pono]

I don't "get" the profusion of extremely negative, nasty user reviews about AFFC and ADWD on Amazon.com. Before I started posting here a few months ago, I thought that the rather extreme views expressed on Amazon reflected the general opinion of the ASOIAF community as a whole. I almost felt like something was wrong with me for enjoying the books so much.

In any case, after spending time here, I now tend to believe that most *serious* fans have a deep appreciation for the most recent two books in the series, despite whatever flaws they may have.

So why the hate? And it's not as if the people on Amazon simply dislike GRRM or ASOIAF as a whole, because books 1-3 have almost universally great reviews on that same site. Was it just the fact that those last two books didn't have as many showstopper climaxes as Book 3 (which had a ridiculous number of them)? Or is it because the Amazon people ar more *casual* fans and they don't care about all the mysteries/mythology/intrigue/secret identies, etc. A lot of the reviews seem almost *angry* at GRRM for not giving them what they want, though I'm not entirely sure "what they want" actually is.

But the bigger question is how did the user reviews on Amazon become such a hate fest? Sometimes reviews can be shockingly one-sided, even for quality material. Kind of reminds me when the DVD for the critically acclaimed movie Lost in Translation came out (a movie I loved, btw). Now I can understand how that film might generate mixed reviews at worst, but the Amazon reviews were numerous and decidedly, violently negative.

Anyway, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts.

[Arkantos]

People are idiots, nuff said.

[Khal Pono]

People are idiots, nuff said.

Nah, I don't think it's as simple as that. Some of the nasty reviews are quite articulate and seem to be written by intelligent people.

So I'm just wondering why all the haters ended up on Amazon when there's so many other intelligent people who seem to love the books.

[maximilian]

I got started on ASoIaF pretty late and almost read all five books in a row.

I liked the two loved books even though there were some tedious parts, but I guess if you waited a very long time

for the books it might be a disappointment.

[ab aeterno]

Nah, I don't think it's as simple as that. Some of the nasty reviews are quite articulate and seem to be written by intelligent people.

So I'm just wondering why all the haters ended up on Amazon when there's so many other intelligent people who seem to love the books.

Partially I imagine it's because the Westeros.org forums draw in people who like the books whereas if you dislike them, their Amazon pages might seem a better place to rant. I suspect that some of them, but not all, are trolling, but there might not be an easy answer for all the hate/ Personally, AFFC was my least favorite book because it only contained a couple of my favorite characters and lots of my least favorite characters, but I loved ADWD. What exactly are their complaints about?

[Khal Pono]

What exactly are their complaints about?

A lot of whining that "nothing happens". Dany doesn't invade Westeros, etc.

[The Snowman]

Many dislike the 'slowness' of A Feast for Crows along with the fact that there was no Jon, Tyrion or Denaerys interaction along with having to listen to Cersei and not to mention that a fair number of people don't like the Brienne chapters at all.

I can understand the frustration with Feast but essentially it was a good novel it just didn't have the big fan favourites.

The re-emergence of twinsest might have had something to do with it but then again it didn't last long.

And then there's the adventures of the Greyjoy's and Martells which are a little bland except for Myrcella getting sliced.

The only thing I could see that readers don't like about Dance is Dany being a little be of a hypocrite concerning her people but that's a small issue.

Probably the biggest disappointment in Dance would likely be the huge cliffhangers that we hoped would come to fruition but they didn't.

- The whole Stannis situation

- Just Jon

- The whole Mereen situation

- The whole Aegon situation

- I'll add the 'where the hell is the fleet of King's Landing/Loras/Ironborn raiding the Reach

For me it just means Winds of Winter is going to be TOTALLY EPIC!

[ab aeterno]

A lot of whining that "nothing happens". Dany doesn't invade Westeros, etc.

In that case I think a lot of them are trolls or younger readers who don't appreciate the lack of action, or the benefits of a long story. Everyone is used to relatively short books and instant gratification these days. Look at Harry Potter- even the longer Harry Potter books each have their own climax as well as another one for the series as a whole. ASOIAF is more like a chronicle of Westeros rather than just a story. Though, granted, I can understand their complaints about Dany sitting on her butt for too long.

Edited for spelling.

[Lord Davos Seaworth]

Too many new characters wah wah

Too much of a widespread plot wah wah

I don't like the character split wah wah

Too many unanswered questions wah wah

Arya was my favourite character but he new storyline is too different for me wah wah

[Arkantos]

Nah, I don't think it's as simple as that. Some of the nasty reviews are quite articulate and seem to be written by intelligent people.

So I'm just wondering why all the haters ended up on Amazon when there's so many other intelligent people who seem to love the books.

Being articulate just shows them to be a well trained idiot, anyone who gives these books a 1 star rating, the lowest you can give, is a buffoon. Those ratings should be reserved for crap like "50 Shades of Grey" or "The Vampire Armand", or anything that's very poorly written. GRRM puts more detail into the world and expands it greatly, then people complain that they don't like the characters, as though everyone can relate to everyone irl.

From what i've read, the people who complain were expecting non-stop action, battles, duels, rape or w/e. Shame the world isn't full of those and there are other things to talk about like politics, families and so on.

[ab aeterno]

Being articulate just shows them to be a well trained idiot, anyone who gives these books a 1 star rating, the lowest you can give, is a buffoon. Those ratings should be reserved for crap like "50 Shades of Grey" or "The Vampire Armand", or anything that's very poorly written. GRRM puts more detail into the world and expands it greatly, then people complain that they don't like the characters, as though everyone can relate to everyone irl.

From what i've read, the people who complain were expecting non-stop action, battles, duels, rape or w/e. Shame the world isn't full of those and there are other things to talk about like politics, families and so on.

In the gaming world this is essentially Call of Duty syndrome. Everyone wants simple, arcade-y, cartoonish violence without having to think about or consider things more deeply than in the latest Transformers movie. I wouldn't worry too much, as GRRM said, ADWD spent a full year on the NYT best sellers list, so the whiners aren't impacting sales it would seem.

[Frey Pie]

No resolution, just more cliffhangers. I enjoyed both but i can see why people are pissed after the wait

[SeanF]

I could understand peoples' frustration if they'd read the first three in quick succssion, waited 5 years for the next, and got nothing involving Dany, Tyrion, and Jon, and then waited 6 years for the next, only to have several major plot threads hanging in the air.

And, when they got Tyrion, and Dany, there were considerable alterations in their characters. For much of ADWD, Tyrion is almost suicidal, while Dany's a ruler paralysed by indecsion, rather than the gifted conqueror of ASOS.

I only started reading the series in June 2011. I read all the books back to back, and loved them, and saw no decline in the quality of Martin's writing in the last two. That's not to say that neither book has flaws, and I don't think either of them matched the thrils of ASOS. But, both of them are highly readable, in my view.

The oddest criticism of 4 and 5 is "nothing happens". Loads happens, even if it isn't what the disappointed readers want.

[ab aeterno]

No resolution, just more cliffhangers. I enjoyed both but i can see why people are pissed after the wait

Should anyone have expected resolution is books 4/4.5 (becuse the first half of ADWD is concurrent with AFFC) out of a 7 book series?

[Gandalf the Grey]

I found AFFC pretty boring on the first readthrough...I loved ADWD though.

[ab aeterno]

I could understand peoples' frustration if they'd read the first three in quick succssion, waited 5 years for the next, and got nothing involving Dany, Tyrion, and Jon, and then waited 6 years for the next, only to have several major plot threads hanging in the air.

And, when they got Tyrion, and Dany, there were considerable alterations in their characters. For much of ADWD, Tyrion is almost suicidal, while Dany's a ruler paralysed by indecsion, rather than the gifted conqueror of ASOS.

I only started reading the series in June 2011. I read all the books back to back, and loved them, and saw no decline in the quality of Martin's writing in the last two. That's not to say that neither book has flaws, and I don't think either of them matched the thrils of ASOS. But, both of them are highly readable, in my view.

The oddest criticism of 4 and 5 is "nothing happens". Loads happens, even if it isn't what the disappointed readers want.

I agree, I'm in a very similar position to you and I think you're dead on with this. While people are entitled to their criticisms I think there is something of an entitlement complex in entertainment audiences today.

[SeanF]

I found AFFC pretty boring on the first readthrough...I loved ADWD though.

IMO, AFFC improves markedly on the re-read.

After reading some negative internet reviews, I actually waited a while before ADWD. Then I bought it, and by page 200 was thinking "what the hell are they complaining about?"

[Cruella]

I thought they were pretty dissapointing overall, despite personal big appreciation of some parts of AFFC, many needlessly drawn out and deadly dull POVs, plot drowning in overwhelming level of detail, writing that just gets more and more descriptive and slow, and rather shocking lack of resolution in ADWD. Long wait and subsequent annoyance just made people so much more willing to tear books apart, and GRRM, in my opinion, gave them ample ammunition. As an example, I was endevouring to drag out my reading of ADWD for a week, I was pretty sure I was going to break down and eat it alive in three days tops, however, I managed easily to stop reading it for few days couple of times, and, with some very little willpower, I managed almost two weeks, easily. I certainly wanted to love it, but I think it was objectively (as objectively as you can get, in these things) weaker than original trilogy. In desperate need of GOOD (ruthless, unafraid of GRRM) editor

[LordBloodraven]

I could understand peoples' frustration if they'd read the first three in quick succssion, waited 5 years for the next, and got nothing involving Dany, Tyrion, and Jon, and then waited 6 years for the next, only to have several major plot threads hanging in the air.

And, when they got Tyrion, and Dany, there were considerable alterations in their characters. For much of ADWD, Tyrion is almost suicidal, while Dany's a ruler paralysed by indecsion, rather than the gifted conqueror of ASOS.

I only started reading the series in June 2011. I read all the books back to back, and loved them, and saw no decline in the quality of Martin's writing in the last two. That's not to say that neither book has flaws, and I don't think either of them matched the thrils of ASOS. But, both of them are highly readable, in my view.

The oddest criticism of 4 and 5 is "nothing happens". Loads happens, even if it isn't what the disappointed readers want.

Same as me. I read the books in a row last year between June and July. I preferred the first 3 than the latter two more due to their paces and action. If I started reading back in 1998, and waited 5 years for book 4 and 5, I might be disappointed with the difference in paces and the lack of plot advancement. AFFC and ADWD, I believe are set-up books for the conclusion of the series, so there might lay the disappointment of some fans. But there are still trolls

[DaveSumm]

I've just finished my second read through, they do improve a great deal but there's no denying there's flaws. They both build to a set events that doesn't happen, and the elegant POV structure that he builds through the first three books is thrown out the window. The system of gradually introducing POV's by first introducing the character through someone else's eyes softened the blow, and then we suddenly have a cold introduction to a vast number of new characters. Ones that many people argue aren't necessary. I highly doubt that GRRM would have released them like this if time wasn't an object (Arya is given 80% of an arc in Feast, which is then topped up in Dance?).

Personally I would have liked to have seen:

BOOK 1: The North, The Wall, Sam, Arya, Asha (NOT Aeron) culminating in the Battle for Winterfell.

BOOK 2: Kings Landing, Jaime, Victarion, and all the Meereenese travellers, culminating in the Battle for Meereen.

I love House Martell, but I've yet to see any evidence that they're entirely necessary. Victarion will probably play a part in Meereen and Asha has a valid viewpoint for the North, but the Aeron preamble is irrelevant. Two books that run concurrently, culminating in two battles and then concluding with a look to the future: Stannis (one hopes) declares he's marching further south, Dany and her new found entourage head for Westeros. Ahhhhhh much better.