Why all the vitriol against book 4 and book 5 on Amazon.com?

[msheafer33]

We normally don't allow discussion of moderation on the open board [...]

Exactly! That is why it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion of factors that may be relevant to the OP's question: Why opinions on this board tend to differ from those on Amazon.

but in this case I think it's important to set the record straight.

Good Job! But I stand by everything I said, including the bolded elements. Note that your response contains many straw man elements and misrepresentations of what I said. I won't go into specifics. I'll merely point that fact out and refer people to what I actually said.

I disagree with (some) other things you said as well. But public dissent on such points, is, as you note, forbidden. I'll allow that fact to speak for itself and move on.

Having done so, if anyone has any further comments, we'll revert to the usual policy of 'take it to PM'.

Alternatively, the OP could take my suggestion, and ask her question on another forum (like Amazon) where discussion of moderator policies (even Amazon moderator policies) IS permitted. That's just one example of how Amazon is less heavily moderated than this forum.

[Lord Boltons flaying knife]

When you sack Jon Snow and Tyrion, the pov's for the most enjoyable chapters in the series in a lot of fans opinions it its going to cause an explosive reaction.

I HATE that he dropped them and think the books are average in comparisson to the first three masterpieces bit overall they are still a good read and hopefully just a build up to the show stoping storm of swords topping climax.

[Pope Killdragon]

Lack if plot progression. Those books were more about the journey than the destination which I didn't have a problem with.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I personally enjoyed AFFC and ADWD, although overall not as much as the first 3 books, so I could understand the reaction to an extent. I think the people on Amazon overreact though, like the people who say AFFC and ADWD absolutely suck...

Okay now that I've given my opinion on the actual topic I need to go off on a tangent about ADWD. Certain storylines in ADWD were of quality of the first 3 books (particuarly everything going on in The North & at the Wall), but then everything else was either good but way too short (Bran, Davos & Jaime - Jaime only having one measly chapter) or just boring (Dany, Tyrion post meeting up with Conningtons crew, everything Meereen related). If they had never went to Meereen, given closure to the Stannis v. Bolton conflict and given more chapters to some of the aforementioned characters that book could have been as good as the first 3, just sayin.

[Alkion]

I think a lot of it can be considered first impressions, and those who aren't looking for a deep reading experience teasing out all the details and trying to figure out what happened in the past, and will happen further down the line. People who want action all the time wouldn't like Feast.

I read the first three books in 2000 around the time when storm Storm came out, and was disappointed as it took longer and longer to get the next book. When I finally got to read it five years later, I was... underwhelmed. Despite being forewarned (I had been reading westeros.org since the time Storm came out as well), I hated that very few of my favorite characters that were in there. It seemed like nothing happened in some of the chapters, and it was a bit of a letdown because I had been expecting a continuation of the same pace as was in Storm. But I wasn't too disappointed, because the last page of Feast assured me that Dance would be out in just a year! Still, if I had written a review (I didn't) at that time, it wouldn't have been at the same level as the others.

I've reread Feast twice since then, and my opinion of it has nearly completely changed. It's an amazing book for those who want to pull each and every detail from their reading. Nearly every chapter contains some historical or cultural detail that just screams out for some impact further down the line. It's the book, along with Dance, that is richest in world-building and history, and when interwoven with Dance, there are echoes of themes between characters that are really fascinating.

The more one is invested in the story, the details of the world, and how the history of the world impacts on the current story line, the better both Feast and Dance will be. That isn't every reader, to be certain, and it also means that book is usually better on rereads than on the first read.

[mormont]

Personally, and this is only an opinion, but I hate how people 1* things they don't like. I think that 1* is for things that either don't work or do what they say or are just bad. Even if you didn't like the book, when judged against other books, is it really that bad? Is it worse than Twilight? Or Fifty Shades of Grey? Or is it just poor compared to the previous books in the series. Even if you didn't enjoy it, I think that objectively you would have to say that, at the very least, it is a decent book. Though people would doubtless disagree. Heck, some people 1* Great Expectations...

Well, I think this is an illustration of some inherent issues with rating systems, ie that we all use them slightly differently. Some people use them as a scale for 'how much I liked the book compared to others I have read': some as a scale for 'what I think this book's objective quality is': some for 'how well this book compares to others by the same author/in the same series': some have different scales in their heads. You really need to take the whole star thing with a massive pinch of salt, and read the reviews.

Exactly! That is why it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion of factors that may be relevant to the OP's question: Why opinions on this board tend to differ from those on Amazon.

Balderdash. We're having such a discussion right now, there was another just the other week, there have been many over the years. It has nothing to do with moderation. If you have a bee in your bonnet about the moderation, PM a moderator to discuss it. But please don't waste time pretending it has anything to do with this topic.

Good Job! But I stand by everything I said, including the bolded elements.

You have a perfect right to be as wrong as you like. The facts, as I say, remain. No-one has ever been warned or banned on this board for being critical of GRRM's work (or indeed that of his collaborators or the people behind the TV series), and no-one ever will.

I disagree with (some) other things you said as well. But public dissent on such points, is, as you note, forbidden. I'll allow that fact to speak for itself and move on.

The policy is that we generally don't discuss moderation decisions on the open board because, as we see here, it only derails the discussion. (Most other boards generally don't allow such discussions either, you'll find... including, contrary to your claims, Amazon.)

So, since we have now derailed the discussion enough, I repeat - if you still have a bee in your bonnet about moderation, take it to PM. No further comment here, please.

[Stannis 4 Prez]

Interesting thread. I was wondering the same thing after reading the iTunes comments which were also negative for ADWD. Although it got mostly 5 star ratings oddly enough. I think it just has to do with the fact that the people who are most likely to post any comment at all are the people who are upset. I think if you polled not only dedicated ASoIF fans but also more casual readers that most would be positive. Plus there's also the issue that amazon doesn't require you to have actually bought the product to give a review which leads to sometimes frustrating yet more often hilarious consequences.

[SeanF]

Alkion, I think Storm is the best of the books. There's just shock after shock, and it would have been virtually impossible for Feast to match that pace. I think Feast definitely improves when re-read.

[olavtheking]

I didn't like feast because a lot of characters were missing and I absolutely hated the Brienne chapters, she searching for Sansa (we know she is not going to find her) in some strange boring part of the crownlands I mean get on with it. I loved ADWD though and we need feast to understand it so feast does have a purpose, didn't really like the Mereen chapters but I certainly didn't hate them.

People who don't like both books, well........................... I pity you.

[ellisg]

One thing a lot of people on Amazon did complain about was that there was no real conclusion to A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, that we were left with just cliff hangers, in some points they are correct but in other cases they were more then just cliff hangers. Jon Snows was an absolute cliff hanger in the sense of we don't know whether he is dead or alive, same with Jaimie and Brienne, we know don't know whether they'll live or die. Where as with Dany, Tyrion and Victarion it's more of what is going to happen next rather then the simple question of will they live. As for the no conclusion to the story, I know each book should have one but it's the fourth and fifth book out of seven so how can they really expect an absolute, nailed on conclusion for each of them?

[ab aeterno]

One thing a lot of people on Amazon did complain about was that there was no real conclusion to A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, that we were left with just cliff hangers, in some points they are correct but in other cases they were more then just cliff hangers. Jon Snows was an absolute cliff hanger in the sense of we don't know whether he is dead or alive, same with Jaimie and Brienne, we know don't know whether they'll live or die. Where as with Dany, Tyrion and Victarion it's more of what is going to happen next rather then the simple question of will they live. As for the no conclusion to the story, I know each book should have one but it's the fourth and fifth book out of seven so how can they really expect an absolute, nailed on conclusion for each of them?

I think this is an issue not just on Amazon but generally, but I think people judge these books unfairly because they either forget, or don't understand, that these books are roughly half the two thirds of the way through the narrative arc. When the series is finished and you read the books back to back, I'm sure most of these problems will be gone. The books aren't IMO intended to stand on their own. Only AGoT does that to any extent. They are part of an overall story and aren't going to make too much sense out of context.

[ellisg]

I think this is an issue not just on Amazon but generally, but I think people judge these books unfairly because they either forget, or don't understand, that these books are roughly half the two thirds of the way through the narrative arc. When the series is finished and you read the books back to back, I'm sure most of these problems will be gone. The books aren't IMO intended to stand on their own. Only AGoT does that to any extent. They are part of an overall story and aren't going to make too much sense out of context.

I completely agree, people are moaning that there is no resolution to the end of each book when it's two thirds into the series really irked me, they're not stand alone's they're multiple books that make a up one whole story, how can people expect resolution two thirds into the story.