Purple wedding in Season 3 or Season 4?

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

Maybe I've got an evil streak in me, but I think the RW is a GREAT way to end season 3. I hope it's in episode 10 and not 9. Totally an Empire Strikes Back cliffhanger to make fans wait on if there ever was one! What's the worst that could happen? I really doubt viewers are going to tune out over it. If anything, it might cause them to break down and read the books which is a good thing. And in general, cliffhanger endings rock. I realize story purposes make it desireable to make it episode 9 because there are plenty of things to do in one last episode, but I'd love to see it.

I say put the PW as deep into season 4 as they can. Introduce Oberyn late into season 3 so he han ride with Tyrion for their great chat, as well as attend the wedding. And he and Tyrion can have more scenes together while Tyrion is imprisioned as they make a plan for Oberyn to be his champion at trial.

LIKE

[freetickles]

It's ridiculous to think the PW will be in season 3. The RW will be episode 9 or 10 or season 3 (it would be awesome if it was the last scene of episode 10). If the PW occurs in season 3, are they really going to stretch Tyrions trial, Oberyn vs. the Mountain, and Tyrion's escape over 10 episodes? Why cram so much into season 3, then drag out season 4? Talk about awful pacing.

Actually, I think Tyrion's trial, Oberyn vs. the Mountain, and Tyrion's escape are plenty of material for a full season, especially considering there's other maneuvering happening in KL during Tyrion's trial (Jamie getting back and doing his thing with the kingsguard, Cersei doing her thing as regent and Tommen getting accustomed to being king, etc.) Not that much happens in KL prior to the PW in ASOS - basically just Sansa getting to know the Tyrells and the Sansa/Tyrion wedding, so if the PW is in season 4 it's season 3 that's likely to be dragged out, in terms of the Kings Landing material at least (though I'm sure they'll find ways to keep everybody busy). Even with the PW in season 3 there would be more than enough material for season 4.

That said, at this point given that we know Sansa's wedding is in episode 8 and the RW in episode 9, I think they're saving the PW for early season 4. I think season 4 will see Oberyn's arrival in episode 1, and the PW will occur by episode 3 at the latest.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

I suppose so, but I was thinking in terms of how they normally pace things. Just seems silly to me to get the first 3/4 of SoS in season 3, and the last 1/4 in season 4.

[Independent George]

I suppose so, but I was thinking in terms of how they normally pace things. Just seems silly to me to get the first 3/4 of SoS in season 3, and the last 1/4 in season 4.

But S4 isn't just SOS; it's SOS plus the first third of FFC/DWD. There's no shortage of material - the problem is crafting a proper narrative arc spanning three overlapping books.

[Khal-a-bunga]

But S4 isn't just SOS; it's SOS plus the first third of FFC/DWD. There's no shortage of material - the problem is crafting a proper narrative arc spanning three overlapping books.

It's pretty unlikely that any material for the main characters will extend into AFfC & ADwD territory, considering they'd be abandoning both their arc resolutions from ASoS. It's more likely that we'll be seeing material from those two books dealing with the Dornish characters and those at the Iron Islands, since a decent amount of their material happens chronologically with the latter parts of the third book.

And let's not forget that season three is going to have a lot of material that was cut from season two (the Tully's; the Reed siblings; Ramsay Snow; Arstan Whitebeard) incorporated into it, in addition to the material from the third book itself.

If their goal is to ensure proper narrative arcs remain intact, taking any of the main cast too far into the material from the last two books seems rather counter-intuitive.

[oierem]

It's pretty unlikely that any material for the main characters will extend into AFfC & ADwD territory, considering they'd be abandoning both their arc resolutions from ASoS.

Arya's arrival to Braavos is a better season ender than her leaving Westeros.

Tyrion talking to Illyrio and finding out about Dany is a better season ender than just killing his father.

You may be right about Jon, but I think that him executing Slynt (a major villain in season 4) could a better season ender.

Not sure about Dany. Does she need all season 4 to conquer Meereen?

Sam leaving the Wall is a good season ender.

Brienne doesn't have enough material for season 4.

Bran doesn't have enough material for season 4.

Theon doesn't have any material for season 4.

Davos doesn't have any material for season 4.

Oh, no, I'm sure we'll be seing a lot more than just the Iron Islands and Dorne in season 4.

[freetickles]

Oh, no, I'm sure we'll be seing a lot more than just the Iron Islands and Dorne in season 4.

Agreed. They've already shown a willingness to move material up in the show (the Cat/Jaime confrontation at the end of S1; Arya on the kingsroad at the end of S1; Night's Watch departing Castle Black for the big ranging at the end of S1; Robb, Catelyn's, Brienne's & Jaime's stories at the end of S2 (and really a few episodes before the end of it), and they've said that the seasons don't necessarily have to correspond to the books one-for-one.

So, just because they spread ASOS over two seasons doesn't mean it needs to take up the whole seasons. With AFFC and ADWD they're going to have a big challenge in getting through all of that material in a couple seasons, so I'm sure they'll be glad to get started on some of the threads (in addition to Iron Islands and possibly Dorne) in Season 4.

So I agree with you that we'll see Arya in Braavos in S4; possibly her blindness as a cliffhanger the way it was in the books (though that may not leave enough Arya material for Seasons 5 + 6).

- 50/50 on Tyrion in Pentos (could see them ending S4 with Tywin's death and having Tyrion's fate a cliffhanger).

- Agree about executing Slynt and Sam leaving the wall.

- Agree we'll get some Brienne, Bran, Theon and Davos (meeting with Wyman) story moved up into season 4; probably Cersei and Jaime's stories, too.

[oierem]

Agreed. They've already shown a willingness to move material up in the show (the Cat/Jaime confrontation at the end of S1; Arya on the kingsroad at the end of S1; Night's Watch departing Castle Black for the big ranging at the end of S1; Robb, Catelyn's, Brienne's & Jaime's stories at the end of S2 (and really a few episodes before the end of it), and they've said that the seasons don't necessarily have to correspond to the books one-for-one.

So, just because they spread ASOS over two seasons doesn't mean it needs to take up the whole seasons. With AFFC and ADWD they're going to have a big challenge in getting through all of that material in a couple seasons, so I'm sure they'll be glad to get started on some of the threads (in addition to Iron Islands and possibly Dorne) in Season 4.

So I agree with you that we'll see Arya in Braavos in S4; possibly her blindness as a cliffhanger the way it was in the books (though that may not leave enough Arya material for Seasons 5 + 6).

- 50/50 on Tyrion in Pentos (could see them ending S4 with Tywin's death and having Tyrion's fate a cliffhanger).

- Agree about executing Slynt and Sam leaving the wall.

- Agree we'll get some Brienne, Bran, Theon and Davos (meeting with Wyman) story moved up into season 4; probably Cersei and Jaime's stories, too.

Glad that we agree :)

However, I'd say Arya's blindness is going ahead too much (and her being blind doesn't work as a cliffhanger on TV).

I'm 100% convinced about Tyrion. If you think about it, that's how his story ended in both seasons 1 and 2. After the big episode, the assumes his new situation and his role during the next season is established. And besides, tying his story to Dany's will be important by then, since the viewers will be really annoyed about her lack of progress.

And I just want to add another thing: if we agree that about a quarter/third of AFFC/DWD will be in season 4, don't you think one more season is enough for those books? Consider that some characters will have run out of material by then, and none of the other characters has any real material for two more seasons.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Arya's arrival to Braavos is a better season ender than her leaving Westeros.

Tyrion talking to Illyrio and finding out about Dany is a better season ender than just killing his father.

You may be right about Jon, but I think that him executing Slynt (a major villain in season 4) could a better season ender.

Not sure about Dany. Does she need all season 4 to conquer Meereen?

Sam leaving the Wall is a good season ender.

Brienne doesn't have enough material for season 4.

Bran doesn't have enough material for season 4.

Theon doesn't have any material for season 4.

Davos doesn't have any material for season 4.

Oh, no, I'm sure we'll be seing a lot more than just the Iron Islands and Dorne in season 4.

I guess I could see a few of those, but I still don't think we'll be seeing much of their material from AFfC & ADwD. I imagine we won't get much further than any of their first few chapters from the last two books, similar to season one ending with Jon going beyond the Wall and Arya heading out of King's Landing with Yoren.

And I completely disagree that Tyrion ending on his meeting with Illyrio makes for a better ending than the murder of his father, if only because we know that Tyrion won't be meeting up with Dany by the time season five ends. My biggest problem with that ending would be that it sets up the integration of Dany's story in Essos connecting with a main character from Westeros, and even those of us who have read the books have yet to see that come to fruition. Tyrion - as a fan favorite, and arguably the lead of the show - will be one of the harder story lines to work out, despite the lack of material other characters run into.

I think seeing Tyrion leave for Essos might work better than either of those options, as it hints that the two story lines will converge without necessarily stating it outright (which, again, is more of a problem in the case of Tyrion because of the affinity the audience has for his character).

In any case, it's becoming increasingly apparent just how difficult adapting this story is going to get from the fourth season on, so hopefully D&D have given it enough forethought to make it work. Delaying the introduction of characters like Meera & Jojen, Ramsay, etc. seem to indicate that they realized some of these characters were going to have issues, but it could still turn into a mess if they aren't very careful about how they approach things. Ultimately though, there are so many options for how they handle the story in future seasons, that I'm sure the end result will be some amalgamation of several of the theories and ideas we've read and come up with on these forums.

[oierem]

In any case, it's becoming increasingly apparent just how difficult adapting this story is going to get from the fourth season on, so hopefully D&D have given it enough forethought to make it work. Delaying the introduction of characters like Meera & Jojen, Ramsay, etc. seem to indicate that they realized some of these characters were going to have issues, but it could still turn into a mess if they aren't very careful about how they approach things. Ultimately though, there are so many options for how they handle the story in future seasons, that I'm sure the end result will be some amalgamation of several of the theories and ideas we've read and come up with on these forums.

In any case, I hope you realize that the increasing difficulties to adapt the books comes from the AWFULLY SLOW PACING, which will never work on screen. The only way to avoid it is to move faster than the books, streamline events and get to the point where the characters start to converge again as soon as possible. The only reason people are suggesting to have two seasons out of AFFC/DWD is the page count, not the narrative pacing or the dramatic arcs. If you think about that, the storylines of AFFC/DWD will never work spread out over two seasons.

[Lannister Hamster]

In any case, I hope you realize that the increasing difficulties to adapt the books comes from the AWFULLY SLOW PACING, which will never work on screen. The only way to avoid it is to move faster than the books, streamline events and get to the point where the characters start to converge again as soon as possible. The only reason people are suggesting to have two seasons out of AFFC/DWD is the page count, not the narrative pacing or the dramatic arcs. If you think about that, the storylines of AFFC/DWD will never work spread out over two seasons.

I think the problem is too many characters. How many POV are there now altogether? 15ish? It is probably too much to get through in one season and give everyone the time they deserve.

And also Quentyn, Doran, Arienne and YG's party are all introduced so they need time to become established.

Even if they streamline everything 15 stories, which for the most part are not connected, is ambitious for 10 hours of tv.

I think two seasons with clever changes to the story and timeline of the story and additions would work better.

[oierem]

Too many characters and the progression of each of those storylines (which are totally separated) is too slow. That's the problem, yes.

[oierem]

I think the problem is too many characters. How many POV are there now altogether? 15ish? It is probably too much to get through in one season and give everyone the time they deserve.

And also Quentyn, Doran, Arienne and YG's party are all introduced so they need time to become established.

Even if they streamline everything 15 stories, which for the most part are not connected, is ambitious for 10 hours of tv.

I think two seasons with clever changes to the story and timeline of the story and additions would work better.

Establishing those new characters means that the old fan-favourite characters (which have been set up as main characters) have to be tossed aside for several seasons?

And keep in mind how many seasons we can get at most. Once we're talking about seasons 5 and 6 we should be worrying about getting towards the end of the series, not get entangled on new storylines.

[Lannister Hamster]

Establishing those new characters means that the old fan-favourite characters (which have been set up as main characters) have to be tossed aside for several seasons?

And keep in mind how many seasons we can get at most. Once we're talking about seasons 5 and 6 we should be worrying about getting towards the end of the series, not get entangled on new storylines.

Aren't some of those characters dead?

And doesn't GRRM introduce new storylines. Without Quentyn who lets the dragons out or do we just cut from Doran revealing his plan to Quentyn rocking up at Dany's throne with the proposal?

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

I guess the solution for Quentyn would be to make him travel WITH Tyrion and Jorah. Tyrion's season 5 then would be to a) introduce Aegon and send him onto Westeros and then in the second half B) introduce Quentyn and travel with him to Meeren where they get separated again as the season cliffhanger and Quentyn makes it to Dany "winning the race". (Season 6 would have the freed dragons as the opener and the battles where we are right now in the middle)

It is such "clever", if not necessarily "best" (or rather probably not..), storytelling, not storytwisting I expect for the later seasons. It is clear that you need to switch up a lot of things for the pace to work.

And I do agree that they are not to lose much storytime as the show will not get infinite seasons... ;)

[freetickles]

Once we're talking about seasons 5 and 6 we should be worrying about getting towards the end of the series, not get entangled on new storylines.

The problem is that even tWoW is only scheduled to come out in 2014 (so at the end of season 5), and it'll be multiple years till we get aDoS. So the show will need to follow GRRM's slow pacing in order to give him enough time to finish the series. I think getting to know all the new characters will work better than just throwing them in and keeping up a fast pace that doesn't allow the viewers to get to know them.

[Sasha Steelsong]

The problem is that even tWoW is only scheduled to come out in 2014 (so at the end of season 5), and it'll be multiple years till we get aDoS. So the show will need to follow GRRM's slow pacing in order to give him enough time to finish the series. I think getting to know all the new characters will work better than just throwing them in and keeping up a fast pace that doesn't allow the viewers to get to know them.

The showrunners have no intention of waiting for GRRM to finish the series (even if he can get it done in two books which I'm sort of doubting at the moment). They've said he's basically told them the main plot points that happen after the current books and that they basically will keep going regardless of his book timetable.

[freetickles]

The showrunners have no intention of waiting for GRRM to finish the series (even if he can get it done in two books which I'm sort of doubting at the moment). They've said he's basically told them the main plot points that happen after the current books and that they basically will keep going regardless of his book timetable.

I think the reason he told them is so they can finish the story via the TV show if he dies or becomes incapacitated before he finishes writing. Even if they know how characters' arcs are going to end, I don't see them letting the show get ahead of Martin. We would end up with two completely different stories, and I don't think that's what they want.

[oierem]

Aren't some of those characters dead?

And doesn't GRRM introduce new storylines. Without Quentyn who lets the dragons out or do we just cut from Doran revealing his plan to Quentyn rocking up at Dany's throne with the proposal?

The basic main cast of the series is based around season 1 characters: the Starks, the Lannisters and Dany. Those are the fan-favourite characters, characters that have been set up as the BIG characters. And no, most of them aren't dead: you have Bran, Arya, Sansa, (unCat), Jon, Dany, Tyrion,Jaime and Cersei. Maybe Stannis, Davos and Theon can be added to the list as well.

That's it. Those are the real main characters, who carry the weight of the story. And most of them get sidelined in books 4 and 5: trainning far away, or just rulling and waiting for things to happen.

[oierem]

The showrunners have no intention of waiting for GRRM to finish the series (even if he can get it done in two books which I'm sort of doubting at the moment). They've said he's basically told them the main plot points that happen after the current books and that they basically will keep going regardless of his book timetable.

Totally agreed. They shouldn't sacrify the quality of the series (or rather, the quality of the narrative and the adaptation) just to give Martin some time. Having absolutely no guarantee that Martin will be able to write the books at the necessary pace. Knowing that he's not willing to meet deadlines.