Is a unified Westeros bad for the Night’s Watch?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Your only evidence that the Targaryens caused this is speculation.

True. but the correlation between Conquest and the decline of the Watch is pretty ominous.

[ab aeterno]

Apparently not enough.

I never said they halted it either, simply that that page refuted the idea that they weren't interested and did noting to stop its decline.

[ab aeterno]

True. but the correlation between Conquest and the decline of the Watch is pretty ominous.

Sure, they might be linked, I just don't think it was a direct cause, or that it was a Targ conspiracy.

[Chaircat Meow]

True. but the correlation between Conquest and the decline of the Watch is pretty ominous.

If the OP is right the decline of the NW is a testimony to how enormously beneficial Targ rule was.

[ab aeterno]

If the OP is right the decline of the NW is a testimony to how enormously beneficial Targ rule was.

See, this is the issue. IMO we don't have enough information to make a judgement on this, because GRRM largely hasn't written the history far enough back. We have no way of knowing whether there are more conflicts before or after the conquest. If I was reasoning in a vacuum, I'd reason that post-conquest would be quieter/calmer and more peaceful because everyone is under the king's justice. It could also be the case however that due to the Targs being 50% crazy and prone to succession disputes, there are more wars afterwards. I don't think we have the information to answer this question, so all we can do is speculate.

[Chaircat Meow]

I was just saying the correlation wasn't necessarily ominous.

[ab aeterno]

Fair enough, but my point still stands, your post just brought me back to that line of thought. :)

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I remember reading that they drew from the 7 Kingdoms...when they really were 7 Kingdoms.

I wouldn't read to much into the decline, it's similar to real life declines in the military during peace time, or falling memberships in the Masons & Odd Fellows.

It's not a "cool" thing to do anymore.

[The Mountain That Flies]

It could also be the case however that due to the Targs being 50% crazy and prone to succession disputes, there are more wars afterwards.

This was actually something I debated a great deal in my head before starting this thread. As you said, the lack of information, specifically on localized conflicts pre-Conquest, makes it difficult to concretely prove my point, and the Targayens certainly didn't ensure ever-lasting peace in the realm. However, the various Targ civil wars (Dance, Blackfyres, Robert) couldn't have asted more than a combined eight-ten years, and often ended with the defeated being pardoned back into the king's peace. Meanwhile, the sheer existence of a centralized authority would naturally mean less overall conflicts, which would mean less defeated nobles needing to keep their head attached to their shoulders.

[Buried Treasure]

The unification of Westeros may have contributed to the decline of the Watch but I also suspect the period of the Blackfyre rebellions may have had something to do with it. That was a period of protracted warfare followed by a great sickness that would have resulted in much reduced recruitment at the Wall for a couple of generations - which is all it takes for decline to start (though the NW has probably recovered from similar temporary declines in its long history). To top it all off the Golden Company was founded as a semi-honourable refuge for noble exiles, which would have resulted in much fewer dispossessed nobles joining the NW because they had nowhere else to go. Come to that the fall of Valyria and establishment of the free cities may have contributed to the decline. We don't know how welcoming the Valyrian empire was to exiled Westerosi but after the first couple of violent centuries in the aftermath of Valyria's end that part of Essos has become a good destination for Westerosi - certainly better than the Wall.

[danm_999]

I think what killed the Night's Watch was the perception that it was full of criminals.

Once, it was seen in both the North and the South as a valorous organization full of good men. We know this from Mormont, who comments that even in the time of Queen Alysanne, the honourable, volunteer brothers with knighthoods vastly outnumbered the criminal brothers sent to the Wall. This is corroborated by the Shieldhall at Castle Black, which Jon describes:

The Shieldhall was one of the older parts of Castle Black, a long drafty feast hall of dark stone, its oaken rafters black with the smoke of centuries. Back when the Night’s Watch had been much larger, its walls had been hung with rows of brightly colored wooden shields. Then as now, when a knight took the black, tradition decreed that he set aside his former arms and take up the plain black shield of the brotherhood. The shields thus discarded would hang in the Shieldhall.

Hundreds of knights meant hundreds of shields. Hawks and eagles, dragons and griffins, suns and stags, wolves and wyverns, manticores, bulls, trees and flowers, harps, spears, crabs and krakens, red lions and golden lions and chequy lions, owls, lambs, maids and mermen, stallions, stars, buckets and buckles, flayed men and hanged men and burning men, axes, longswords, turtles, unicorns, bears, quills, spiders and snakes and scorpions, and a hundred other heraldic charges had adorned the Shieldhall walls, blazoned in more colors than any rainbow ever dreamed of.

But when a knight died, his shield was taken down, that it might go with him to his pyre or his tomb, and over the years and centuries fewer and fewer knights had taken the black. A day came when it no longer made sense for the knights of Castle Black to dine apart. The Shieldhall was abandoned. In the last hundred years, it had been used only infrequently.

This tells us two important things. Firstly, the Night's Watch used to have so many knights that they justified a seperate dining hall. Secondly, the Shield Hall is a fairly even representation, based on Jon's descriptions, of all Westerosi chivalry. You have Arryns, Targaryens, Conningtons, Martells, Baratheons, Tyrells, Lannisters, Reynes and Daynes, to name a few, all represented on the shields. But now, most Southern houses think the Night's Watch is full of scum, and redundant. But apparently, only the last few hundred years has the stigma in the South towards the Night's Watch existed.

And I think that stigma took root when a unified Westeros meant that it was more difficult for all sorts of fugitives, both petty and great, to hide from a centralized Targaryen justice system. Before Aegon, if you broke the law in the Reach, why not simply run to the Westerlands? It's a different realm, and I imagine that made rulers and administrators loathe to dig their fugitives and political dissidents out.

After Aegon, the King's Justice goes from the Wall to the Arbor. More people get caught, which means more people get sent to the Wall, which increases the proportion of Brothers that are criminals, which in turn lowers the rates of volunteers because they don't want to be associated with criminals.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Well we know it's a fairly grim life on the Wall. Hard work, giving up your lands and no women so the appeal to volunteer for it has to be for honour. A lot of this is lost because of the penal colony aspect of it but it seems to have been a slow process happening over a long period of time. Slowly but surely the number have dwindled forcing them to close castles. I think mainly it's just the point of it seems to have been lost. I mean previously the Wall stood as the last line between humanity and the Others, now it's just for keeping out the straggly barbarians that are the Wildlings.

In the short term Robert's rebellion will also have effected it. A large civil war means the deaths of a lot of sons, especially younger sons, so less lords to go to the Wall. You also have to think that a lot of the nobles sent to the wall were done in disgrace by previous kings/lords. Aeyrs wasn't really one for banishment and probably would have killed them all.

[jblair]

It's been talked about in several other threads, and this is kind of off-topic and kind of really relevant, but there's no reason for the North to be a part of the 7 Kingdoms. They derive no benefits from it. The NW is the same in my opinion- If it's left as a distinctly Northern institution, the Northern lords have enough motivation to make sure the NW is functioning and capable. The Iron Throne has no such vested interest in the NW. Tywin and the Lannisters prove this for the most part- "It's the North's problem, they can deal with it" tends to be their attitude.

I have no idea if this is true, but I have a suspicion that the practice of sending criminals to the Wall really began to flourish when the Iron Throne took over "support" for the Wall. To them, the Wall is some far off place that has no relevance or importance to them. They know they have the Northmen in between them and whatever is on the other side of the Wall, so there's no vested interest in protecting the Wall since the North stands between them. I imagine this in turn incredibly weakened the prestige of the Wall by using it as a dumping grounds for unwanted criminals, which in turn essentially destroyed the Wall and the NW and everything it stands for.

Actually, I'd argue the reverse is even more true. The South appears to get little from the North. If the North became indpendent, everyone should rejoice.

1. The crown would no longer worry about keeping the NW intact. (From their perspective, the Other threat doesn't exist. Hell, even now the North barely knows).

2. The North is where the brunt of winter hits. Lots of $$ for Dorne and Highgarden to help them make it through a long one.

3. The North has its own religion, shared by only a couple of Southern houses. Eliminate the cultural divide.

4. For all the South would care, the ironborn could raid the North to their heart's content. It would make the defense of their own territories easier.

5. There is nothing in the text to suggest the South relies on the North for timber, furs, or minerals, which seem to be the main resources up there. The North doesn't seem to have a systemic way of extracting and trading these resources large-scale.

The crown should just build its own Moat Cailin facing North and let them do what they want.

[mimic751]

I thinkl they will create a workers revolution, like certain people take life oaths but every one must serve on the wall for at least a year.

[Bane]

The thing that surprises me most is that the Andals apparently upheld the tradition of joining the Night's Watch after their conquest. The NW was founded by the First Men and was a First Men institution and thus it's strange that the foreign Andals would support it for so long before the Targaryens came.

The crown should just build its own Moat Cailin facing North and let them do what they want.

That would be the most logical. But kings don't tend to be logical. They want to be able to say "Mwhahha I rule all Westeros blawhaaha" not only "I rule the South" which isn't as badass.

The unification of Westeros may have contributed to the decline of the Watch but I also suspect the period of the Blackfyre rebellions may have had something to do with it. That was a period of protracted warfare followed by a great sickness that would have resulted in much reduced recruitment at the Wall for a couple of generations - which is all it takes for decline to start (though the NW has probably recovered from similar temporary declines in its long history). To top it all off the Golden Company was founded as a semi-honourable refuge for noble exiles, which would have resulted in much fewer dispossessed nobles joining the NW because they had nowhere else to go. Come to that the fall of Valyria and establishment of the free cities may have contributed to the decline. We don't know how welcoming the Valyrian empire was to exiled Westerosi but after the first couple of violent centuries in the aftermath of Valyria's end that part of Essos has become a good destination for Westerosi - certainly better than the Wall.

This seems reasonable. Why freeze your ass off amongst rapers and lowborn thieves on the Wall when you can join the glorious Golden Company(or some other, less glorious, sellsword company) and live a rather decent life in Essos?

[Septon Meribald]

I thinkl they will create a workers revolution, like certain people take life oaths but every one must serve on the wall for at least a year.

This kind fo thing has been proposed before. The problem is that it could take someone from Dorne a year just to get to the Wall. Even once they are there most people aren't particularly useful in the first year anyway. Most need to be taught how to fight, or how to do whatever other jobs are required by the order.

[ab aeterno]

This seems reasonable. Why freeze your ass off amongst rapers and lowborn thieves on the Wall when you can join the glorious Golden Company(or some other, less glorious, sellsword company) and live a rather decent life in Essos?

Exactly, it's about pride, vanity and appearance, more than it is any practical concerns. From what we're told, the North isn't even very wealthy or productive. Other than in soldiers.

[Castel]

The thing that surprises me most is that the Andals apparently upheld the tradition of joining the Night's Watch after their conquest. The NW was founded by the First Men and was a First Men institution and thus it's strange that the foreign Andals would support it for so long before the Targaryens came.

Did they? I was under the impression that the Wall being a sort of neutral area/prison began with the Targs.

[mimic751]

I suppose your right. but something will change on the wall in the final epilogue.

[Bane]

Did they? I was under the impression that the Wall being a sort of neutral area/prison began with the Targs.

Black Harren's brother was Lord Commander on the Wall when Harrenhal burned. He was Ironborn so not strictly Andal but still. Afaik the Andal lords and kings continued to support the NW. And this is very strange, considering that the Andals still lived in Essos at the time of the Long Night and thus wouldn't know much about the part the NW played in ending it.