Ned's dilemma concerning Jon and Catelyn when he became Hand?

[ab aeterno]

I don't think so. I think it was more what Zupoleon said above. Having Jon around wouldn't really damage his reputation so much as it would make people ask questions. It probably wouldn't take long for someone like Varys to put together the puzzle pieces.

Even at WF? If the Hand could bring Jon to KL without it being an insult I'm not sure it should be so much worse to seat him at their table in their castle, even if he was at the bottom of it. I don't think it's likely to have been about reputation mind you, but it is a possibility.

[Khal GoGo]

I believe it was Catelyn that forbade Jon to sit at the table. Ned could have overruled her but maybe she was still feeling a bit touchy after realizing that most of her children would be going south soon or something like that. Plus, I think we all know who wore the pants in that relationship :lol:

[Kosh Naranek]

Well Jon's interactions with Cat illustrated to me that leaving him with Lady Stark would not be a kindness. Granted we as readers met Jon as a teenager, but his mental dialouge when saying goodbye to Bran told me quite a bit. He noted that the comments/actions of Cat would have have made him cry and run away at one point. He also notes that she had never called him "Jon" before. (I wonder what she called him?)

Some of my friends that read the books said that he never endeared himself to Cat, but how could he? She obviously never gave him a chance and he learned quick (as most children do) to avoid her.

I think the Night's Watch was a good choice because he would be with Benjen. Yes, life would be hard, but he would be with family and could rise in the ranks.

I think that Bear Island or White Harbor would have been good, but not King's Landing. There were to many eyes and too many people to ask questions.

[Scipio Africanus]

He also notes that she had never called him "Jon" before. (I wonder what she called him?)

Bastard, probably. Damn Cat is sub zero when it comes to Jon. Almost...Cercei-esque.

[ab aeterno]

Bastard, probably. Damn Cat is sub zero when it comes to Jon. Almost...Cercei-esque.

It's true, regardless of whether Jon reminds Cat of Ned's infidelity, she doesn't have to take it out on an innocent child, and she doesn't have to tell Jon, "it should have been you," after Bran is crippled.

[Erudain]

I don't think Robert would've even realized Jon was in Kings Landing; after all, whoring and drinking is a full time job. However, I absolutely believe Varys would definitely notice. Varys' job is to be inquisitive, and not only that, I think he would see a little bit of Rhaegar in Jon. It would only be a matter of time before he pieced everything together...

Yup most likely Robert wouldn't notice but perhaps Varys, LF or even Barristan could say "hey kid....you kinda remind me someone...and you look Stark but not quite like your dad Ned...."

[Kosh Naranek]

I have just started a re-read. The first few POVs in Winterfell really highlight how much Cat hated Jon. I had forgotten how much really.

Arya's POV highlights how when smaller she was afraid she was a bastard because only she and Jon looked like Ned. (Cat really hated Jon for looking more like Ned than Robb, Bran and Rickon.) Arya went to Jon to talk about her fears, and he told her that no she was not. It was sad and sweet.

It also reminded me how much I hated Sansa for referring to Jon as half brother and allowing Jeyne to mock Arya. (Granted J Poole has suffered, but both Sansa and Jeyne just struck me as superficial and horrid.)

Cat irks me for her treatment of Jon. She even thinks that she would not care if Ned fathered more bastards if she did not have to look at them. What? You would rather your husband cheat on you repeatedly and spawn 10 or more claimants to your childrens' heritage than be nice to one child? I don't buy into the Cat super hate, but I did loathe her at the beginning of book 1 for treating a kid like crap.

[ab aeterno]

Yup most likely Robert wouldn't notice but perhaps Varys, LF or even Barristan could say "hey kid....you kinda remind me someone...and you look Stark but not quite like your dad Ned...."

Quite possibly he didn't want Jon around anyone who knew Ashare Dayne, for one reason or another. We're certainly told that he shuts that rumor down the first time that it is heard...

[I'll pay the iron price]

Yes, Cat was wrong to blame Jon - he didnt do anything to deserve it!

I think Bear Island would have been a good choice, surely he could have been paired with one of the many Mormont women?

[Jaime's Wench]

This is one thing that has always bothered me about 'honourable' Ned Stark. Regardless of whether he was Jon's father or uncle biologically, Jon was his son and he should not have passed him over to Benjen simply because it was convenient and because Jon had shown a passing interest in joining. Ned knew that the Night's Watch was a difficult path to take, even without the threat of The Others, yet he doesn't do anything to enlighten him or to give him alternatives. He could have fostered him in other houses, or even better, he could have spoken a few authoritative words to Catelyn about how Jon should be treated while he is in KL. Catelyn mistreats Jon, true, but there was little she could do to prevent the continuation of his education or his friendship with Robb.

Added to this, Ned gives Jon no closure about his parentage. Yes, this might be convenient to the plot ... Honourable? Nerh.

[ab aeterno]

This is one thing that has always bothered me about 'honourable' Ned Stark. Regardless of whether he was Jon's father or uncle biologically, Jon was his son and he should not have passed him over to Benjen simply because it was convenient and because Jon had shown a passing interest in joining. Ned knew that the Night's Watch was a difficult path to take, even without the threat of The Others, yet he doesn't do anything to enlighten him or to give him alternatives. He could have fostered him in other houses, or even better, he could have spoken a few authoritative words to Catelyn about how Jon should be treated while he is in KL. Catelyn mistreats Jon, true, but there was little she could do to prevent the continuation of his education or his friendship with Robb.

Added to this, Ned gives Jon no closure about his parentage. Yes, this might be convenient to the plot ... Honourable? Nerh.

Yes, exactly.

Ned: We'll talk about who your mother was when I get back.

Jon: Gee, thanks dad!

[one year later]

Ned: So, it turns out that you're not my son, your mother was my sister, Lyanna and I loved her very much. I'm sorry I lied to you, but I promised her on her death bed. Also, Rheagar Targryen was your father, so you have quite a strong claim to the throne.

Jon: You mean I could be king?

Ned: Yeah.., about that; since you joined the Night's Watch, you renounced all your lands, titles, the right to have a wife, and are bound to the Wall for life. Sorry about that kiddo.

[Erudain]

Lol would been hilarious....

Morning before Ned leaves to KL, asks for the whole family to gather at Bran's room...."Well family I'm leaving, Robb you are in charge....look after your mother and your brothers, Sansa and Arya are coming with me....btw Jon...I'm not your dad I'm your uncle, Lyanna is your mother and the crown prince was your dad....if I were you I would give a second thought to your idea of joining the NW.....oohh and Cat, pls apologise to the kid before I leave.....come on, I know you can do it, pretty pleeeeease"

[ab aeterno]

Lol would been hilarious....

Morning before Ned leaves to KL, asks for the whole family to gather at Bran's room...."Well family I'm leaving, Robb you are in charge....look after your mother and your brothers, Sansa and Arya are coming with me....btw Jon...I'm not your dad I'm your uncle, Lyanna is your mother and the crown prince was your dad....if I were you I would give a second thought to your idea of joining the NW.....oohh and Cat, pls apologise to the kid before I leave.....come on, I know you can do it, pretty pleeeeease"

Oh, and by the way, don't tell anyone who you are because if Robert finds out he'll kill you. Aaaand me for concealing a Targaryen.

[Erudain]

Well Ned has to die for the story to move foward.....

[Jaime's Wench]

And Jon has to go to the Wall for the story to move on. It was a bit of a plot device and would have been more convincing had Jon always wanted to join the NW, just like Bran always had dreams of being a knight.

[Budj]

Didn't Jon always want to join the watch though? I thought from a young age he always viewed it as this paradise where a bastard could be a hero.........

I'm pissed FOR him, haha.

[Jaime's Wench]

I re-read the first part of aGoT last weekend and it struck me as a recent fad he'd entertained. I could be wrong, but Bran's desire to become a knight of the Kingsguard came across as far stronger.

[ab aeterno]

I re-read the first part of aGoT last weekend and it struck me as a recent fad he'd entertained. I could be wrong, but Bran's desire to become a knight of the Kingsguard came across as far stronger.

I got the impression that positively wanting to go was quite recent but was inspired as much by his admiration/idolization of Benjen as it was about being somewhere that a bastart could rise high. IIRC his dream was riding out and saving Ned, or something like that.

[Jaime's Wench]

But that's typical of a fourteen year old boy. When I was a fourteen year old (girl), I would go from wanting to be a singer when the X Factor was on, to wanting to be on the stage after my parents took me to see Les Mis, to wanting to be an Olympic Equestrian after a particularly successful jumping lesson.... I was full of ambition and ideas for adventure for myself but very little concept of 'how to manage it'. Jon jumped at the first opportunity to follow a role model and seek an adventure, like most boys would at his age. And his father foolishly let him - whereas my parents might have the kindness to tell me I couldn't sing/act all that well before letting me go off to an audition.

[ab aeterno]

@ Jaime's Wench

I agree, that's exactly my point. It looks like it is actually going to work out well for Jon, cliffhanger permitting, but Ned had no way of knowing that, and didn't believe that. His only reasoning was that a) Jon wants to go and b ) Bastards can do just as well as trueborn lords in the watch.

It may be however that that was why he sent him to the Wall, because he believed it was the only place he felt Jon's being a bastard wouldn't hold him back.