RaceBannon42 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Why do such thread always make me feel that I have to choose a side? Because like oil and water or matter and antimatter, Bakker and Erickson do not mix. Actually the reason it always seems to develop into sides is that maybe 10% of people really enjoy them both, and the other 90% split near the middle greatly prefering one to the other. My side finds Bakker to be at the summit of the genre, and see Erikson running around in the foothills with the Brookses and Salvatores and Gemmels of the world. The other side is clearly wrong. Or rather their tastes vary and the prefer Erikson's style to Bakker's for one reason or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balefont Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 If you liked Tolkien, you will probably like Bakker. But I don't enjoy Tolkein, Ro. ETA: I guess I like Bakker because I can identify with almost all of the characters. Esmenet is one of my favorites as well as Kellhus. I enjoy reading well written, mindful insight and of kick-ass manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzlebane Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 ETA: I guess I like Bakker because I can identify with almost all of the characters. Esmenet is one of my favorites as well as Kellhus. I enjoy reading well written, mindful insight and of kick-ass manipulation. You can identify with Kellhus? Note to self: never, ever cross Balefont. And don't trust anything he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzlebane Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Well, just goes to show the mastery she has over the minds of lesser mortals. I couldn't even determine her gender: a total mystery to me, whom I must fear, and never give in to her charms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balefont Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Yes, I can identify with Kellhus or at least how he "works". The concept of things coming before determining what comes after is not new and I find it to be a fascinating element to the story. And yes, it's a line of thought I apply to virtually everyone with whom I come into contact. Tho I don't ALWAYS use this information to my advantage it IS there should I need it. Ro, I now better understand your feelings about the story. I can see why the character of Kellhus disgusts you and Esmenet's falling into you know where. I just like seeing a master at work and will revel in either his downfall and domination by one more gifted or I will do a happy dance when he controls all. I'm just enjoying the journey and the study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Funny. I like Bakker and Erikson, but I don't particularly like Tolkien. I think I may have to reread LOTR, though, because every time I say that I feel like I'm going to get jumped. Bakker is enjoyable once he gets going. Didn't really like the beginning of Darkness, but I really got into it. It is a complicated world and a slow pickup (though no more complicated than Erikson), so you may have trouble getting into it. Thankfully, Bakker, like Tolkien, focuses on a few characters (now that I think about it, I count nine), and thus the world doesn't overwhelm you. After you get used to the world, it may not be your cuppa - the main reason I see is that a lot of people have a lot of trouble sympathizing with Kellhus, though there are others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfJaqen Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 I had almost forgotten the TDTCB Prologue was online. If this appeals to you, the rest should. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Wow, am I glad you posted that. I came this >< close to buying the first book. But the writing is horrendous, I would never make it. Thanks for saving me a few dimes. -SoJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceBannon42 Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 The prologue is a horrible way to judge a series. It made no sense at all to me when I first read it. It took me about half of TDTCB to start enjoying it. Its a complicated story and the elements take time to come together. Plus his naming conventions took me that long to get used to. But once I hit TWP it was all smooth sailing. Heck, If I had judged ASOIAF by the prologue of AGOT I don't know that I would have got beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstark Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Thread drift........The prologue of AGOT was what got me too, i was browsing through Borders and picked the book up, didnt liked the cover and Jordan's blurb but began reading the prologue, the rest is history, read almost a hundred p[ages in the store........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzlebane Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 The writing in the prologue is heavily stylized in a way that the book isn't. However, since it has turned you off, perhaps you should see if they have a copy at the library? Start the book without plunking down money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gladius Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 I just want to know something. Who has more/more powerful magic Bakker or Erikson? Does it have a price (Martin)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Wow, Chataya. Kinda shocked you feel that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decius Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 I just want to know something. Who has more/more powerful magic Bakker or Erikson? Does it have a price (Martin)? Both are very powerful, Erikson's mages seem to have a lot more utility (traveling through Warrens, healing, possession, spying, enchanting - all the usual RPG-stuff really) , while Bakker's sorcerors use magic mostly for Wards or offensive spells (very, very powerful offensive spells though) - or at least that's what we have seen yet. Bakker's magic has very high prices, in exhaustion, in how it changes the wielder, in getting the Mark (and being thus marked as "sinner" forever). Sorcerors can also be killed if they get touched by a Chorae/Trinket, which many nobleborns have and which is used in special "anti-sorceror-bowman"-units. The ultimate glass-cannon. Except exhaustion I don't see a real price in using magic in Erikson's world, and the fact of course that they are vulnerable to Otataral, which works similar to Bakker's Chorae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Bakker's magic has very high prices, in exhaustion, in how it changes the wielder, in getting the Mark. That seems to depend on the type of sorcery. You want the Psûkhe? Go ahead, but we need to carve out your eyes first. You want the Gnosis? Ok, but you will be tortured in your dreams every night for the rest of your life. Oh, and if you ever touch a Chorae, you will explode, of course. The anagogic schools seem to have the most cost-efficient approach. You get to keep your eyesight and sweet dreams, the only price is death-by-pebble. One of the anagogic sorcerers experiments a bit with summoning demons, but I believe that the personal cost associated with that process is little understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 But I cannot handle many and varied detailed scenes of rape. If it is any consolation, the book is not misogynistic in that respect: There is an on-screen male rape in the third book. (One so well-deserved that to my shame I actually cheered, in some twisted, disgusted way.) There is hole-in-the-ground-rape as well, but no tree-rape as far as I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Stark Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Bakker's bad guys make the Mountain look like the happy squirrel of silly pranks... The Inchoroi are frigging evil. The stuff in the background of the story hints at why the men of Bakker's world are so ruthless. The horrors in their history are pretty shocking. The Inchoroi No-God gave people nine years of every single child being stillborn, even aside from the atrocities committed by the sranc/orcs. Before that, the Inchoroi in full Sauron mode made "friends" with the Nonmen/elves and promised them the secret to immortality. The Inchoroi then made a biological weapon that made a small percentage of the male Nonmen pretty much immortal at the cost of killing every single one of the female Nonmen and most of the males. So many of the remaining Nonmen get more insane with each passing generation. I was not fond of the constant use and abuse of Esme and Serwe in the first book and a half. Later on, that aspect of the story slowly went away and there are hints I took that the next part of the story will actually create some room for women to exist with less horror in their lives. I think of the setting as basically the Middle East (complete with their not so glorious treatment of women), a long time both after Sauron destroyed Middle-Earth/Europe (and then got banished by the final sacrifices of Gandalf) and the arrivals of Jesus and Mohommed. The main story is partway between the Crusades and the Bible's Book of Revelations (aka the end of the world). So... It is not a happy story, but I found it a very powerful one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Later on, that aspect of the story slowly went away and there are hints I took that the next part of the story will actually create some room for women to exist with less horror in their lives. *evil chuckle* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerol Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Overuse of magic in Erikson's world usually results in fatigue and vulnerability. When Quick Ben used all 12 warrens to kick Bauchelain and Korbal Broach's sorry asses, he didn't have much left to get the hell out of there. Also, it was one of the best exchanges in MoI. If I had the book I'd quote it all...one of those moments where you put down the book and go YESSSSS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceBannon42 Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 I havent read enough Erickson to really understand how the Warrens work. I think that magic is probably used a bit more by him though and is more common and possiblt more powerful. Bakkers system of magic is very interesting imo. The scenes with Akka calling forth the power of the gnosis in all its glory were fricking awesome. silly anagogic schoolmen didnt know who they were messing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Yeah, Bakker is *awesome* in describing magic. (Better so, than Eriksson, even if Eriksson probably has the more powerful stuff) I love how the Gnosis doesen't call fire, it calls the essence of burning itself. Awesome stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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