Beauty and self-image

[Alia of the knife]

True, and of course that's only one part of the issue. In a 'beauty and self image' thread, there are two elements - how others see a person, and how the person sees herself/himself. As some of the posts have drawn out, the external perceptions may depend on the viewer's gender, because it's interesting to see the subtle differences at times between how men and women see the same person. Of course, we then also ask whether there are differences in self-perception between male and female characters. Is their self image bound up solely with their physical appearance, or is it also a combination of appearance and behaviour? (This is why I don't really think it is much use discussing people like Lyanna, dead Targs, and so on - we don't know how they saw themselves, so we have no idea of the self-image aspect).

Alia of the knife makes an interesting point here, asking whether the issue of 'beauty' in the books is a device to highlight the issue of choice, or its lack, in the case of women:-

That is true to a certain extent, and yet it doesn't address the fact that in Westerosi society, a woman's beauty was also an important 'asset' for her family. As we see so clearly and tragically with the Starks and the Freys, marriages (or non-marriages!) played a key role in establishing and maintaining political alliances. A pretty/ beautiful young woman was not just appreciated by others simply because of her looks: her physical appearance could also be important in terms of securing a 'good' husband for her. 'Good' of course tended to mean 'did the marriage serve political ends', not whether the man concerned was likely to be a good husband. Of course men suffered from this too - Edmure Tully was offered up as a second-best choice to Walder Frey once Robb married Jeyne, and Daven Lannister was also expected to marry a Frey girl, despite obvious preferences elsewhere. Tywin certainly saw Cersei's beauty as an asset for the Lannister family: she may not have married Rhaegar but she still ended up as queen. Similarly with the Tyrells and Margaery, as they were negotiating with an attractive chip to bargain with.

Brienne is interesting in this context: her father 'did' arrange a second betrothal for her (Red Ronnet) but he rejected her because of her appearance. Up until then, Brienne had gone along with her father's wishes - she'd had a childhood betrothal, but the boy died, and then there was Ronnet. It was only after Red Ronnet's rejection that Brienne asserted herself in the case of her third betrothal to Ser Humfrey Wagstaff, when she said she was not going to accept chastisement from any man who couldn't defeat her in a fight. So when and how did this self-assertion come about? If Red Ronnet had accepted and married her, would Brienne still have become a warrior? Or would she have settled into the normal domestic role of a noble woman, having children and running the household - presumably also turning a blind eye to her husband's infidelities with more attractive women? Did her physical appearance partly determine her choice of lifestyle?

Thats a good question, because it could go either way.

Going back to Lyanna and Arya, (and I keep going back to them because other than Brienne and perhaps the Mormonts, they are the only ones to show an interest in martial pursuits), having even more pressure put upon because of their beauty, you can discern this a little in Neds talk with Arya when he tells her that Lyanna would have carried a sword if his lord Father had not forbade it.

Did Lyanna have any other "feminine graces" such as singing, playing an instruement, needlework, etc.?

If not, then I imagine that Rickard had to rely rather heavily on her physical attributes to compensate if her only other abilities lay in the realm of martial prowess, particularly if he was going to make a match for her with none other than one of the greatest warriors in the land, and the Kings own cousin.

[Little Wing]

He said:

Look me in the eye screams out at me, also that she didn't say the words.

Doesn't that just mean he was saying: She was six years my junior but was of a height with me - meaning, she could look straight into his eyes, being of equal height, not look up if she were shorter? Maybe he's just describing how tall she was for her age...and she didn't actually look into his eyes, as she says. It fits, because she was shy as a kid and later awkward as an adult, that she would just look away or, like Pod for that matter, look at her feet instead of right into a man's eyes.

[Le Cygne]

He would have just written "I was too shy" and "She was as tall as me" if that's all he wanted to say there. Look me in the eye is meaningful.

Brienne on Red Ronnet (dream):

She tried to greet him as she had been instructed, only to have blood come pouring from her mouth. She had bitten her tongue off as she waited. She spat it at the young knight’s feet, and saw the disgust on his face.

Brienne on Red Ronnet again:

In the mêlée at Bitterbridge she had sought out her suitors and battered them one by one, Farrow and Ambrose and Bushy, Mark Mullendore and Raymond Nayland and Will the Stork. She had ridden over Harry Sawyer and broken Robin Potter’s helm, giving him a nasty scar. And when the last of them had fallen, the Mother had delivered Connington to her. This time Ser Ronnet held a sword and not a rose. Every blow she dealt him was sweeter than a kiss.

Loras Tyrell had been the last to face her wroth that day. He’d never courted her, had hardly looked at her at all, but he bore three golden roses on his shield that day, and Brienne hated roses. The sight of them had given her a furious strength. She went to sleep dreaming of the fight they’d had, and of Ser Jaime fastening a rainbow cloak about her shoulders.

Loras on Brienne:

"She's freakish strong for a woman... Renly thought she was absurd. A woman dressed in man's mail pretending to be a knight."

Brienne on Renly:

Renly Baratheon had been more than a king to her. She had loved him since first he came to Tarth on his leisurely lord's progress, to mark his coming of age...

Renly Baratheon had shown her every courtesy, as if she were a proper maid, and pretty. He even danced with her, and in his arms she'd felt graceful, and her feet had floated across the floor. Later others begged a dance of her, because of his example.

Brienne on Brienne:

Afterward she looked at herself in a glass. Her face was as broad and bucktoothed and freckled as ever, big-lipped, thick of jaw, so ugly.

Ser Hyle on Brienne:

"Your lips were made for kissing.”

Red Ronnet on Brienne:

Jaime could smell wine on his breath. “Is it true the wench fought naked?”

Jaime on Brienne:

"Blue is a good color on you, my lady," Jaime observed. "It goes well with your eyes." She does have astonishing eyes.

In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight.

GRRM on Brienne:

This was another one of those cases where there was hardly any debate. The day the first batch of auditions went up for the role, we looked at a dozen actresses who were reading for Brienne and one actress who WAS Brienne. Gwendoline gave a great reading, and her look was just perfect. No, when she auditioned, she did not look she does in the photo above. She came in looking... well, like Brienne.

http://grrm.livejour...com/227044.html

ETA, more quotes

[Melonica Stormborn]

I think men like to dress well to show their status and what they can afford, which is especially important in Westeros. I would say that aside from martial prowess that's another thing men got going for them since they are mostly given a pass for how they actually look.

Having said that, it's also a bag of issues with the men. Theon for one, likes to brag about being the Greyjoy heir at first, but his fashion choices also show how much his stay at Winterfell has changed him, seeing that he's been ridiculed by his real family for the good clothing he loved. When he became Reek #3 he doesn't care about those because he's not Theon anymore. He just wears what Reek should wear.

I got the gaydar blinking originally because of Renly's and Loras' clothing choices, while Stannis is highly utilitarian even in his clothing.

Even Sam came to the Night's Watch with better clothing which were stripped away immediately (for not being black) which signifies his change of status from heir to a brother of the NW. Jon presumably came with good black clothing but then again his Stark heritage has helped him a lot in the NW whether he likes to admit it or not. Being a Tarly did not do the same for Sam (aside from him being the weaker in personality)

[James Arryn]

Clothing betokening status isn't a gay thing. Not then, anyways.

Which is why someone like Tywin took time to look marvelous!

[Florina Laufeyson]

The biggest hit on the gaydar regarding Renly wasnt his choice of clothes so much as his "Rainbow Guard." (for me anyway)

Dudes in Westeros (and even Essos) choose fancy clothes to flaunt wealth and status.

[Melonica Stormborn]

The biggest hit on the gaydar regarding Renly wasnt his choice of clothes so much as his "Rainbow Guard." (for me anyway)

Dudes in Westeros (and even Essos) choose fancy clothes to flaunt wealth and status.

Same for me!

There's just something about Renly's/Loras' style that's more feminine, for lack of a better word.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Arya is one of my favorite characters. I love her spirit and her willingness to flout the rules, but when I read about Cat wanting her to comb her hair, I'm not getting the 'you're not pretty' vibe. I'm getting the 'please calm down and clean yourself up so that you will get a good husband' vibe. Cat wants her daughters to succeed in the world they live in. That means marry well and have babies. Women have no options in Westeros other than that one.

Yeah . . . well that's the problem, isn't it? Arya's presented with an option (at age 9!) that she doesn't want, and Cat does not find her a good match, only an expedient one. Any time Arya spent combing her hair would have been wasted, imo.

Arya's right to be oppositional; without rebellion, there is no change.

But more important, you might not get the "you're not pretty" vibe, but Arya did, and worse, she got the "you're worthless" vibe. "What if Robb won't ransom me?" she says:

“Well,” Arya said, “my hair’s messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard.” Robb wouldn’t care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies. just thinking of it made Arya try to comb her hair with her fingers, but it was all tangles and mats, and all she did was tear some out.

It's not what the public thinks about a person's parenting skills matters, it's the effect those skills (or lack thereof) have on the child that counts.

This is a thread about beauty and self-image. Beauty might be a product of nature, but self-image is surely a product of nurture. Is there a man or woman reading this thread whose self-image hasn't been affected by what mommy, daddy, brother and sis said about them when they were children?

I frequently picture Arya as Joan Jett, a leather-clad little hardbody with shaggy hair, a pretty face, and a bad attitude, only Arya would skip the eyeliner, lol.

[Natalie_S]

Dudes in Westeros (and even Essos) choose fancy clothes to flaunt wealth and status.

Tyrion though wanted to wear fancy clothes hoping to look prettier for Shae, and was very disappointed when he realized that it would have looked suspicious.

I think that in ASOIAF, even men are very concerned and sometimes insecure about their appearance.

Jaime and Loras are considered the equivalent of teenage idols not only because they are good fighters, but also because they are handsome.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah . . . well that's the problem, isn't it? Arya's presented with an option (at age 9!) that she doesn't want, and Cat does not find her a good match, only an expedient one. Any time Arya spent combing her hair would have been wasted, imo.

Arya's right to be oppositional; without rebellion, there is no change.

But more important, you might not get the "you're not pretty" vibe, but Arya did, and worse, she got the "you're worthless" vibe. "What if Robb won't ransom me?" she says:

It's not what the public thinks about a person's parenting skills matters, it's the effect those skills (or lack thereof) have on the child that counts.

This is a thread about beauty and self-image. Beauty might be a product of nature, but self-image is surely a product of nurture. Is there a man or woman reading this thread whose self-image hasn't been affected by what mommy, daddy, brother and sis said about them when they were children?

I frequently picture Arya as Joan Jett, a leather-clad little hardbody with shaggy hair, a pretty face, and a bad attitude, only Arya would skip the eyeliner, lol.

It's funny that you should mention Joan, (LOVE her), because I always imagined both Lyanna and Arya as at least having her attitude. Perhaps if Cersei could have been not insane, she could have been Lita Ford.

[Quiet Isle]

I also liked that Roose found it "endearing" that his wife Fat Walda enjoyed their bedroom endeavours. he is one odd guy that Roose.

[Septa Mary Frances]

Fat Walda and Gatehouse Ami are inexplicably among my favorite really, really minor characters. I don't think we know enough about their inner lives to guess at their self images, but at least they openly (and in FW's case squeakily) enjoy sex despite not being described as raving beauties. I hope they both live to sleep their way through Westeros.

I don't see the Brienne/Red Ronnet exchange about looking him in the eye versus not as necessarily Brienne knowing she didn't want to marry him right off. If he'd been decent to her like Renly she probably would have gone along with the marriage. It's more like a trick of memory, Martin showing us how both of them remember the event differently. Brienne did look at him enough to register what he looked like (long red hair, tall, etc.), but what she focuses on is her own shyness, and inability to carry on a conversation (or even parrot lines as instructed by her septa.) However,even though Brienne in her POVs is constantly conscious of herself as unattractive and doesn't appear to blame most people for their (hurtful to her) stares, she did hold Red Ronnet's behavior against him and later lashed out to kick his ass. Her self image is pretty negative, but she doesn't see herself as completely worthless and deserving of that kind of treatment.

OTOH, Ronnet registered first off that she was very, very tall; it's unlikely that he'd met very many women who could look him directly in the eye even if briefly, so that's what he remembered. Interestingly, he also parallels in some ways Westerosi women on the marriage market. Their beauty (and other talents or skills) might be an asset or a selling point, but it doesn't necessarily preclude them from being shipped off to a richer or higherborn old and/or ugly man, particularly if their beauty is their only selling point (as opposed to a valuable political connection or huge dowry). Brienne in this case was the one with richer inheritance (and maybe higher birth?) than landed knight Ronnet. Maybe he too was lashing out at his frustration at the prospect of being a trophy husband? He took it out on a clearly vulnerable 12-year old and didn't feel ashamed of it 10 years later when talking to Jaime, so he's still a jackass, but maybe a jackass with a perspective. Oh Lord, I just defended Ronnet Connington. I feel icky inside, like maybe I should rethink my desire to send him a gift certificate for the full Theon Package at the Ramsay Bolton Northern Spa Resort.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Yeah . . . well that's the problem, isn't it? Arya's presented with an option (at age 9!) that she doesn't want, and Cat does not find her a good match, only an expedient one. Any time Arya spent combing her hair would have been wasted, imo.

Arya's right to be oppositional; without rebellion, there is no change.

But more important, you might not get the "you're not pretty" vibe, but Arya did, and worse, she got the "you're worthless" vibe. "What if Robb won't ransom me?" she says:

It's not what the public thinks about a person's parenting skills matters, it's the effect those skills (or lack thereof) have on the child that counts.

This is a thread about beauty and self-image. Beauty might be a product of nature, but self-image is surely a product of nurture. Is there a man or woman reading this thread whose self-image hasn't been affected by what mommy, daddy, brother and sis said about them when they were children?

I frequently picture Arya as Joan Jett, a leather-clad little hardbody with shaggy hair, a pretty face, and a bad attitude, only Arya would skip the eyeliner, lol.

Seeing how i know whats it like to be on Arya's end, i agree totally.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Oh Lord, I just defended Ronnet Connington. I feel icky inside, like maybe I should rethink my desire to send him a gift certificate for the full Theon Package at the Ramsay Bolton Northern Spa Resort.

Well Red Ronnet is now under suspicion because his -- what? -- Uncle, cousin? Jon Connington took the Griffin's Roost. Why Red should get any blame for this, I don't know, but what hay, it's Westeros.