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Beauty and self-image


Field of Asphodel

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Uh....is there a mustache-gate discussion that I'm not aware of? Can you point me to it please?

haha no, I meant about pride in appearance vanity posts in "Aegon Marries Sansa". Besides, I couldn't unleash you in a Selyse thread again ;). Many haven't recovered from their wounds yet.

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Oh gods, mustache-gate. Let us try to forget that....

Asha is not conventionally attractive but doesn't let that stop her. She gets men easily. Attractive ones as well if we go by the beautiful Lyseni boys that she lost her virginity too. Her personality and status compensates for where her looks are lacking.

I thought Quentyn was very good. He knows that he's not very good looking especially in comparison to Gerris. He wonders if Dany would even want him. She didn't. He had to use the fact that he was the Prince of Dorne to reassure himself. He knew his looks would not cut it. He also seemed to prefer the more attainable female rather than the strikingly beautiful ones which I thought was a realistic divergence from the common theme that no man will not want characters such as Cersei, Dany, Sansa, etc.

We don't have POVs of the Tyrells but I imagine that Loras is aware of his effect on the female population of Westeros but he discards it due to being uninterested and in Sansa's case forgets it.

We don't know much about Brandon but he probably knew he was hot and used it to charm the ladies. I wish we knew more info because Ned seemed jealous of him when he got bitter at just the mention of his name. I wonder if Ned was insecure about his looks in comparison to his brother especially if theories are correct and Brandon got Ashara.

It's easier for Jon than Arya because despite the two of them looking alike only Arya is the one got called ugly and was given names.As I've said earlier if a female is unattractive in Westeros then her value is diminished. A man can get away with it unless he's a dwarf.

Arianne seems good. She knows she comes off very seductive and uses it to her advantage.

Dany doesn't seem delusional like Cersei. She had a very different upbringing than the nobility of Westeros though so that could be a factor as to why her looks don't seem to be that important to her. When whoever it was told her that he saw a look alike in a whorehouse she didn't let that phase her. She also is willing to be the "Unburnt" with having her hair jacked up.

When Jaqen had his face and according to some theories it may have been his real face I believe he knew the effect it had. He used it to his advantage. He had a lot of swagger and Arya repeatedly noticed his looks. He took time to scent his hair and smell nice so he seemed to care about looking good and knew that he did.

The wildlings seem to have a good self image whether unattractive like Ygritte or beautiful like Val. Their society is different though.

:agree: I wanted to touch on the ones i quoted instead of the entire post (and i agree with that too.).

Asha was the one i was gonna highlight myself. Shes one of the only characters who doesnt have a lot of emphasis placed upon her physical appearance. Theon, upon seeing her and not realizing yet who she was, describes her in an unconventional way. Something like how she isnt the loveliest woman around or even all that pretty, but the way she carries herself is really alluring. Plus her wit makes her seem far more attractive than she really is. Ironborn are literally throwing themselves at her. This fierce and feisty personality and projection shows that Asha is a very confident woman with little insecurities. She also doesnt seem to place a lot of importance on her looks. She know what she can do despite not being the hottest lady ever. It doesnt matter to her. Her mind and confidence carries her entirely. which is why i have a grudging respect for this chick. Sure, her station has a bit to do with that but Theon's reaction to her when shes "Esgred" speaks volumes.

Great point about Quentyn.

As for Ned, i think it had more to do with Brandon's outward projection than his handsome looks. The jealousy there that is. Ned was never very extroverted and probably was envious that his brother was and could attract people (especially women) to him in that manner. Catelyn describes Ned as plain but...you know what? I dont really think Ned was that bland looking at all. I think its just my personal bias because i really dig the tall, dark, and stoic type. Besides, Cat eventually fell in love with him and had many children with ol' Ned. Seems he wasnt TOO plain. lol!

Jon...yeah im not sure hes even described as less attractive than other guys around him. The TV show kinda ran away with it though. (Craster saying something like "hes prettier than my daughters, this one." and im pretty sure thats a show only thing.) Yeah, Ygritte is attracted to him more for his "stealing" her, but i think i recall her saying something about his looks positively. Jon strikes me as the kind of bloke who isnt really aware of his appearance.

Agreed with Dany. Its almost odd how she doesnt place a lot of importance on her looks when people around her do. "Oh i burnt my hair. Oh well." "Oh...im with child...oh well." "Oh...I got a bit sunburnt...oh well." "Oh i have to wear this uncomfortable garment. Oh well..." She never really dwells on it. I think she is aware that shes beautiful, but she never ever draws attention to it herself.

Yes yes yes about Jaqen. Very yes. The way he carries himself with that particular face spoke a lot of volumes. Hes got the swagger of a really confident man. Of course, due to Arya's age, he never really exploits it. Makes me really wonder how Jaqen would interact with an adult woman..... ( :leer: )

Ygritte isnt really unattractive though. Shes unconventional in looks. Kinda like Asha. Shes the sort that has seemingly odd features but once you get used to seeing her, her features compliment her. Spitfire personality is what really helps Ygritte. Jon cant help but feel a lot of attraction after getting to know her. Val is...interesting. She is beautiful conventionally but her wildness is also attractive. Yet no man from the Wall has tried to steal her. I think shes just...freaking intimidating and knows it. lol!

Am gonna go with Roose Bolton's Fat Walda (am not joking!)

She knows she's fat and she makes no apologies about it or bothers trying to starve herself. She is not exacty Westeros model for physical beauty but she actually seems proud her constitution earned her her lordly husband beating the other skinnier Walda.

Hahaha! Yeah. Fat Walda is sassy and im willing to bet, very aware of why Roose chose her, but she gives no fucks about it. None. Shes proud that she landed herself a good catch (in her eyes) and isnt gonna be quiet about it. :)

I wonder about characters like Rhaegar. Everyone who knew him basically was all "dude was hot..." So i wonder what his own self image was like. Did he ever use this to his advantage outside the Lyanna debacle? Hmmmmm....

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Jon...yeah im not sure hes even described as less attractive than other guys around him. The TV show kinda ran away with it though. (Craster saying something like "hes prettier than my daughters, this one." and im pretty sure thats a show only thing.) Yeah, Ygritte is attracted to him more for his "stealing" her, but i think i recall her saying something about his looks positively. Jon strikes me as the kind of bloke who isnt really aware of his appearance.

I'm basing it off of Sansa thinking that Arya was ugly and simultaneously thinking that Jon and Arya looked like one another.

Jon doesn't have those noticieable good looks I believe. Tyrion noticed it with Aegon but didn't with Jon. Jon may have gotten better looking since AGoT to be sure.

Ygritte only said something about Orell messing up his sweet face.

Jon also isn't tall which I subtract points for. Tycho Nestoris is a big man though but I think he was smth like half a foot taller than him. Jon must be like Zac Efron at least or maybe 5'9 at best. :stillsick: Kit seems short too btw.

I don't think Jon is ugly. Ned said that he had a younger version of his own face. I think Jon is just plain and will grow to be ruggedly handsome although there is no textual evidence for that. Mel failed with giving us a good description.

If the face Dany sees that is more comely than Jorah he must at least be avg. looking. One doesn't have to work hard to look better than the grizzly bear though.

As for Ned, i think it had more to do with Brandon's outward projection than his handsome looks. The jealousy there that is. Ned was never very extroverted and probably was envious that his brother was and could attract people (especially women) to him in that manner. Catelyn describes Ned as plain but...you know what? I dont really think Ned was that bland looking at all. I think its just my personal bias because i really dig the tall, dark, and stoic type. Besides, Cat eventually fell in love with him and had many children with ol' Ned. Seems he wasnt TOO plain. lol!

I think it was everything. IA that it wasn't only looks that Brandon had in his favor but he had an actual personality. Jaime said" blood in his veins instead of cold water" as a comparison of the two brothers.

Ned was shorter than Brandon so I deduct points from him too, lol.

Agreed with Dany. Its almost odd how she doesnt place a lot of importance on her looks when people around her do. "Oh i burnt my hair. Oh well." "Oh...im with child...oh well." "Oh...I got a bit sunburnt...oh well." "Oh i have to wear this uncomfortable garment. Oh well..." She never really dwells on it. I think she is aware that shes beautiful, but she never ever draws attention to it herself.

Yes. Arya is the same way where she does not dwell on things. It may come up from time to time like when she thinks about her looks but she keeps pushing it back and moves forward.

Maybe because Dany has always had to adapt to a changing lifestyle and nothing was constant for her so something such as hair may seem trivial. I could be off base here though.

Ygritte isnt really unattractive though. Shes unconventional in looks. Kinda like Asha. Shes the sort that has seemingly odd features but once you get used to seeing her, her features compliment her. Spitfire personality is what really helps Ygritte. Jon cant help but feel a lot of attraction after getting to know her. Val is...interesting. She is beautiful conventionally but her wildness is also attractive. Yet no man from the Wall has tried to steal her. I think shes just...freaking intimidating and knows it. lol!

Maybe I'm biased as I hated book Ygritte but she sounded really asymmetrical when Jon gave her that good description. I think he did say that she had a commoner's face though so maybe her looks wouldn't stand out that much in a negative sense.

IA that it was the personality. Jon didn't like her at first but when he got to know her he warmed up to her so it wasn't her looks. She didn't seem insecure and unsure at all though. She was really aggressive.

Yes as far as Val I've thought that maybe part of the reason why men want her is the fantasy. Maybe they feel more like a conqueror/man if they get her. They know that she's dangerous and could kill them yet they still want to "tame" her.

Val seems to be the one who does the stealing. Maybe she's used to men trying that and is turned off.

Yes yes yes about Jaqen. Very yes. The way he carries himself with that particular face spoke a lot of volumes. Hes got the swagger of a really confident man. Of course, due to Arya's age, he never really exploits it. Makes me really wonder how Jaqen would interact with an adult woman..... ( :leer: )

LOL, agreed. :devil:

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on must be like Zac Efron at least or maybe 5'9 at best. Kit seems short too btw.

:whip: OI! Im 5'9" and far from short! :P (and thats not too terribly short for a dude. Eww Zac Efron)

I think it was everything. IA that it wasn't only looks that Brandon had in his favor but he had an actual personality. Jaime said" blood in his veins instead of cold water" as a comparison of the two brothers.

Yeah probably. I just didnt really see a lot of envy from Ned about Brandon's looks. Of course...who knows. Since everyone says Ned is all ice and Brandon all wolf fire, yeah.

I don't think Jon is ugly. Ned said that he had a younger version of his own face. I think Jon is just plain and will grow to be ruggedly handsome although there is no textual evidence for that. Mel failed with giving us a good description.

Im actually curious as to why GRRM has not given us a definitive description of Jon's looks. Only that he resembles Ned quite a bit. Other than that....huh. I wonder why.

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:whip: OI! Im 5'9" and far from short! :P (and thats not too terribly short for a dude. Eww Zac Efron)

Yeah probably. I just didnt really see a lot of envy from Ned about Brandon's looks. Of course...who knows. Since everyone says Ned is all ice and Brandon all wolf fire, yeah.

Sorry. :laugh: I've heard multiple accounts on ONTD that Zac is like 5'7 or 5'8 IRL. His imdb puts him at 5'10 but I think it's a lie.

I don't like short guys. I remember last year thinking that Jon had such a hot body type being tall,lean,and graceful and that Kit was all wrong for him but then I learned that Jon is most likely short. :frown5: Dany is petite though so they still look good together in my head.

I still think that Kit isn't lean enough and doesn't look graceful but I was sad to learn that he was the right height.

That's what I was saying in my original comment that there was no expansion on Ned's bitterness/jealousy but I think it ties into Barriston's comments about fire vs. mud. Ned would be the Quentyn.

He seems to be upset about Brandon getting everything which is similar to Arya's early comment about Sansa and we know looks did play a role in their relationship.

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About Jon's looks, have you checked this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/54488-adwd-spoilers-is-jon-handsome/

Is very entertaining.

Personally I feel, that similar to Arya his looks will start showing off with age but they are by no means plain looking. Theirs is not the conventional Westerosi beauty (Example-Loras or Sansa) but rather a more wild one.

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I still think that Kit isn't lean enough and doesn't look graceful but I was sad to learn that he was the right height.

Huh. I think Kit Harington fits just fine. :leer: Hes certainly a..very attractive young man...

Im gonna take a good read at that thread, Winterfellian. Its a bit long...hehe! A lot to say about Jon's looks.

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About Jon's looks, have you checked this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...s-jon-handsome/

Is very entertaining.

Personally I feel, that similar to Arya his looks will start showing off with age but they are by no means plain looking. Theirs is not the conventional Westerosi beauty (Example-Loras or Sansa) but rather a more wild one.

I think it could just be the difference b/w Angelina Jolie and Charlize Theron or Olivia Wilde with dark hair as opposed to blonde. One look is more accessible and familiar but both are attractive.

Although Margaery was told that she resembles Lyanna but Ned denied it but I don't believe that Lyanna was extremely unconventional looking if that comparison could be made.

That thread was where I realized that Jon wasn't tall.

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I don't understand what you mean by grounded. Beauty is different for all people depending, not on the person, but on who is looking at them.

If the characters reflect on their beauty, or have their beauty reflected on by others, it is a plot point like Cersei not wanting to believe she is growing old or Dany being "the most beautiful woman in the world". We talked about this in another thread "What Small Things Really Annoyed you" about how all the women are "beautiful" but realistically, that is a subjective statement to be considered true, they are just high-born and powerful.

So neither of those characters are "grounded" because they will have an inflated sense of their self-image. Then you have characters like Tyrion who consistently think of themselves as ugly, are in fact disfigured, but won't dream of considering Penny sexually. So he also has an inflated self-image.

Then there are characters like Arya and Brienne who are probably not all that bad looking, but are called ugly by others and think of themselves that way.

Basically no character who ever reflects on their physical appearance is doing so from an objective standpoint. It is just not possible.

So I would say the most grounded character in terms of physical attributes is Jon Snow. He should really think of his features more to wonder how much he looks like his dad, instead he is just considered to have "Stark features." Then he is horribly scarred on his hand, but he never dwells on this like The Hound does or even Victarion, he just does his hand exercises and goes about his day.

Actually, in the most recent Wiki, Arya is described as pretty now, and one can assume she will grow into a beauty like Lyanna.

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Im pretty tall so short guys kinda make me go "umm..." But there are some who are just so attractive im willing to be all :leer: hahahah!

Speaking of Lyanna, a lot of people make a big hoodoo about her beauty. Makes me wonder how she saw herself. Of course, i dont doubt she knew she was good looking in a way. She managed to have Rhaegar steal her. Rhaegar! The reported Hottest Bloke In Westeros.

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In my mind he has never been tall but he I don't think of him as short either, just medium height. LOL, You really don't like short guys!

I tried it once and that was one too many times for me.

I wanted him to be tall and sexy like my Gerris. I hope Rhaegar is too. I know he was taller than Viserys but I don't know how tall Viserys was.

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Actually, in the most recent Wiki, Arya is described as pretty now, and one can assume she will grow into a beauty like Lyanna.

I never said she wasnt pretty, in the thread that I mentioned I actually said I think she will grow up to be beautiful like Lyanna. You guys should read it Florina stark made a great list analyzing the supposed prettiness of all the female POVs. I just meant that other people like Jeyne and Sansa call Arya ugly, but how can we know? Beauty is subjective. And I dont think Arya sees herself as beautiful, even if she is.
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I tried it once and that was one too many times for me.

I wanted him to be tall and sexy like my Gerris. I hope Rhaegar is too. I know he was taller than Viserys but I don't know how tall Viserys was.

I think Jon is medium sized and sexy. And dont get me started on my personal head canon about what Rhaegar really looks like. Viserys wasnt super tall from what i got the impression of. In fact, when it comes to Viserys, i think hes an interesting case. Hes the sort of guy who would have been smokin' hot if it werent for the expression on his face and his attitude. Harry Lloyd on the other hand... :drool:

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I think Jon is medium sized and sexy. And dont get me started on my personal head canon about what Rhaegar really looks like. Viserys wasnt super tall from what i got the impression of. In fact, when it comes to Viserys, i think hes an interesting case. Hes the sort of guy who would have been smokin' hot if it werent for the expression on his face and his attitude. Harry Lloyd on the other hand... :drool:

I love Harry when he's on his A-game. Harry is either 6' or 6'1. He's tall. I can't really base it off the actors though. I think Rhaegar was shorter than Robert who was 6'5 but there's no evidence to back this up.

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Jon, maybe? In that I don't believe he considers it at all in his worth calculus (for himself and others). And Arya might be a good case, because she doesn't think she's beautiful and doesn't really care (though I think there may have been a few times where I thought her attitude might not be so liberated from caring as a sublimation of contempt for those who are beautiful- I have to look for examples, I may be wrong). I think Sansa/ Cat and Marg are worth mention, though I think with them, they (accurately) see beauty as a sort of a tool that can yield benefits in society. Within that framework, I think they have a healthy view of their beauty, where they don't use it as their only tool, nor are they so vain not to recognize the beauty of others out of competitive jealousy.

Uh....is there a mustache-gate discussion that I'm not aware of? Can you point me to it please?

ETA: Arya_Nym- that is a really awesome point about Quentyn.

On Arya, (and Arya_Nym knows my feelings on this), I think will be more beautiful than Sansa, especially if you refer back to the Kindly Man offering her the chance to go to the Black Pearl, or the Daughter of the Dusk to become a Courtesan.

I think the red herring is that both Lyanna and Arya are/were great beauties, but just not in the polished, Southron way.

Because Arya didn't have a care for beauty and got down and dirty, (like Lyanna did), she is saved from the deception of vanity which keeps her grounded.

Lyanna was raised in a house full of men, with no Mother and no Septa, (they followed the old gods), so I doubt that given the culture of the North, they were given to poncy ways.

When I think about the scenario of Cersei's being presented to Rhaegar, and they looked into each others eyes, I think they both saw vastly different things. She saw beauty, and he saw corruption, and my theory is that he had as much to do in turning her down as Aerys- Rhaegar just made it easier for him.

Thus she and her family have lived under this delusion of being denied Rhaegar when she never had a chance, killing poor Elia, blaming her for knocking Cersei out of the game, though it seems that Elias Mother offered her to Rhaegar to spite Tywin over not marrying her children to begin with.

Had Lyanna been presented to Rhaegar at Aryas age as a potential bride, (and I often wonder why she wasn't given she was the equivelent of a Dukes daughter since there was a shortage of dragon brides for him), she probably would have deliberately dirtied herself up and threatened him with a frog in his bed if he tried to marry her.

And he would have loved it.

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On Arya, (and Arya_Nym knows my feelings on this), I think will be more beautiful than Sansa, especially if you refer back to the Kindly Man offering her the chance to go to the Black Pearl, or the Daughter of the Dusk to become a Courtesan.

I think the red herring is that both Lyanna and Arya are/were great beauties, but just not in the polished, Southron way.

Because Arya didn't have a care for beauty and got down and dirty, (like Lyanna did), she is saved from the deception of vanity which keeps her grounded.

When I think about the scenario of Cersei's being presented to Rhaegar, and they looked into each others eyes, I think they both saw vastly different things. She saw beauty, and he saw corruption, and my theory is that he had as much to do in turning her down as Aerys- Rhaegar just made it easier for him.

Had Lyanna been presented to him at Aryas age as a potential bride, (and I often wonder why she wasn't given she was the equivelent of a Dukes daughter since there was a shortage of dragon brides for him), she probably would have deliberately dirtied herself up and threatened him with a frog in his bed if he tried to marry her.

And he would have loved it.

Ohhohoho yes. While even as a child, Cersei was beautiful, i have a feeling it was the way she carried herself that could have turned Rhaegar off. Perhaps Rhaegar wanted a bride who was feisty but in the wilder sense.

Bolded: LOL! I agree!!!

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I have a feeling that like Arya, Jon will bloom into quite a looker.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna are your parents, that counts for something, but I think that Jon has Rhaegars personality, and Rhaegar didn't exactly bounce off the walls, so that could throw off the perception of his being drop-dead gorgeous, whereas Arya has more passion.

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