Beauty and self-image

[The Nite Wolf]

I never said she wasnt pretty, in the thread that I mentioned I actually said I think she will grow up to be beautiful like Lyanna. You guys should read it Florina stark made a great list analyzing the supposed prettiness of all the female POVs. I just meant that other people like Jeyne and Sansa call Arya ugly, but how can we know? Beauty is subjective. And I dont think Arya sees herself as beautiful, even if she is.

That sounds interesting. Do you happen to have a link? I can't seem to find it. :P

[Angalin]

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Discussion of anything to do with the HBO show goes in the GoT subforum where, by the way, I posted this yesterday. Stay on-topic, please.

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[KhaleesiDany]

That sounds interesting. Do you happen to have a link? I can't seem to find it. :P

Sheesh i guess it was a different thread, oh me oh my.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74718-if-you-were-the-author-plot-changes-that-you-would-have-done/page__st__100

That page starts it and Melonica Stormborn and others have some points. Basically it is against the argument that the characters in the novel are "too beautiful" that some have put forward, because beauty is subjective and these are highborn, powerful women who gain power from being perceived as beautiful. For me, more interesting that whether or not they are grounded, is how the characters use their perception by others to influence those around them. Sansa, for example, whether or not she is your type, must learn to use her beauty and is already using it in a way that Arya probably never will.

I would say that considering the way others perceive her (Sansa is consistently remarked to be one of the most beautiful women, yet she herself rarely dwells on it) she is probably too grounded, and should start manipulating those around her. While Arianne, who is hot, uses sex to get what she wants all the time.

This was Florina's post that I liked:

^Arr!

To me, this is how i saw the beauty for the female leads:

Asha: Not all that and a bag of crisps in the conventional sense. But her fiery personality compliment her nice curves and her take-charge/reaver outlook made her very attractive to the Ironborn men. I wouldnt say she was plain, but certainly not a knockout.

Cersei: Conventionally beautiful. Sexy blond with nice curves and a lovely face. How better to hide the gnarly than with good looks? Nearly all Lannisters are pretty in some way (save Tyrion). I imagined Tywin to have been kinda hunky and Jaime-like in looks when he was young. Joanna was said to have been very lovely.

Dany: I never got the whole Helen of Troy vibe from her looks. Certainly exceptional in terms of beauty due to Targ features, but not exactly the most beautiful woman in the world. That, i think are sailors' tales. Shes described as petite and lovely. So i imagined a small lady with smallish features and really awesome hair.

Catelyn: This one is an interesting one for me. I pictured her a lot like how she looked in the show. I never got the impression she was drop dead gorgeous but still relatively nice looking. More motherly than hot. Auburn hair and stuff. In her youth, i imagined her to be just barely above average in looks. As she is in the series, i imagined a stern looking woman with kind eyes. Whereas (in her youth) Lysa was more on the average level.

Sansa is like Cersei where she is conventionally beautiful. Its said a few times that Sansa is actually more beautiful than Cat was at that age. Fits well with the lovely highborn maiden image.

Arya: Hehe. One reason i relate to her is that she was thought of as not a very pretty child. But i think she would have some striking features like her eyes mostly. And when she gets older...look out!

Lyanna: The way shes described sounds like shes got this sort of earthy beauty going on. Brunette with long (Stark) features that she grew into.

Brienne: I dont actually picture her as really homely. I picture her as very plain but with a smoother face (kinda like Show!Brienne). Its her gruff personality that projects to others that makes others find her a bit off-putting. Mostly because she doesnt have a lot of confidence. I do like how Show!Brienne carried herself though.

Ygritte: Completely unconventional beauty. Shes not ugly but shes not the sort that you get a first glance at and go "wow!" More like the sort of girl whos features are a bit odd at first, but once you get used to seeing her, you find that these features suit her very nicely. Plus her spitfire personality helps.

Val: Wild beauty. I would argue moreso than Lyanna. (But not as striking as Lyanna) Slim and has a pretty face and her manner of dress is very humble to reflect her culture. Her confident and stoic demeanor commands respect.

Melisandre: Sultry.

Arianne: Very attractive with olive skin and large eyes and whatnot. Almost like a very nice looking Italian lady.

I always imagined Irri and Jhiqui to be Grade A among the Dothraki idea of beauty.

Are they really though? Jon sounds adorably handsome and isnt any of those things. (well...i hope hes not dead.) Ned sounded pretty hunky to me. (sadly hes dead...now..) Young Griff sounds like a real maiden's catch. It is yet unknown if he is truly a douche. Jaqen H'ghar's first appearance was "hnngh" and he may be a Faceless Man, but no douche there.

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

Chataya

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Arya, no question.

[Mad Madam Mim]

definately Asha- she dosn't give a monkies how she looks as long as she can wave around her sword

[Winter's Knight]

Yes yes yes about Jaqen. Very yes. The way he carries himself with that particular face spoke a lot of volumes. Hes got the swagger of a really confident man. Of course, due to Arya's age, he never really exploits it. Makes me really wonder how Jaqen would interact with an adult woman..... ( :leer: )

A woman cannot answer. A woman requires hands-on experimentation.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Catelyn Stark. The woman was a gorgeous young lady and is still considered beautiful when she is middle aged and has 5 kids, yet never once does she comment on it.

I mean, she had such amazing breasts that on her wedding a guy commented that he wished he had not been weaned xD

Interestingly, Sansa and Daenaerys don't ever show off about their looks. Neither does Jaime, actually.

[David Selig]

Catelyn Stark. The woman was a gorgeous young lady and is still considered beautiful when she is middle aged and has 5 kids, yet never once does she comment on it.

I mean, she had such amazing breasts that on her wedding a guy commented that he wished he had not been weaned xD

Honestly, this isn't what I'd call healthy. Not to think about your looks once in so many pages? It's strange, a bit unnatural even.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Honestly, this isn't what I'd call healthy. Not to think about your looks once in so many pages? It's strange, a bit unnatural even.

Seriously? Catelyn was not a young woman anymore and besides, she had loads of other things to think about. Her father dying, her husband's death, her sons' supposed deaths, her eldest son fighting a war and so on and so on.

[Jaime's Wench]

It's got to be Jaime and Cersei, lol. Three kids were made out of how confident they were in their own beauty.

:-p

In all seriousness, I think Asha is the most healthy by way of self-image and beauty. She knows she isn't the most beautiful, and so does not use her looks to seduce people, but she knows she is no longer the ugly child she once was and that gives her the confidence to go out and grab the world with both hands. I wish I was more like her.

[lilenadheas]

Catelyn Stark. The woman was a gorgeous young lady and is still considered beautiful when she is middle aged and has 5 kids, yet never once does she comment on it.

I mean, she had such amazing breasts that on her wedding a guy commented that he wished he had not been weaned xD

Interestingly, Sansa and Daenaerys don't ever show off about their looks. Neither does Jaime, actually.

Her breasts do seem to have been quite heavenly. Tyrion comments on them, and tells her that Littlefinger boasted of her "sweet/ripe teats" to all of King's Landing.

[Winter's Knight]

Her breasts do seem to have been quite heavenly. Tyrion comments on them, and tells her that Littlefinger boasted of her "sweet/ripe teats" to all of King's Landing.

Huh.

So Dany's breasts act as gaydars while Cat's bring all the boys to the yard and Arianne's turn knights' brains to jelly .

[plurabel]

no praise for arses for grrm, it seems to be all about teats and nips.

[Jolene Brown]

Interestingly, Sansa and Daenaerys don't ever show off about their looks. Neither does Jaime, actually.

I was thinking about that with regard to Jaime. For someone who is widely considered handsome, he thinks about his looks mostly in regard to Cercei, and how she will not like that they don't look as similar anymore. And there are other little things he does that show a lack of vanity - shaving off his head when he and Brienne first leave Riverrun, then growing his beard in A Feast for Crows, despite Cercei's criticism of how it makes him look old. I almost get the impression at that point (in AFFC) that he enjoys playing down his looks (and perhaps thereby his similarity to Cercei?). When Brienne compliments his appearance at the end of A Storm of Swords, he sort of brusquely blows it off. He likes shoving his stump at people to remind them of it. It's interesting.

[lilenadheas]

Huh.

So Dany's breasts act as gaydars while Cat's bring all the boys to the yard and Arianne's turn knights' brains to jelly .

All mine do is lay there!!! Lazy bastards. I want superpowered teats :crying: .

And don't forget, you can tell a woman's age/attractiveness/moral character by counting the stretchmarks on her breasticles like the rings on trees, in conjunction with sagging.

[ARYa_Nym]

I was thinking about how Gendry seems aware in some respects and unaware in others about his looks.

He's aware of his size and strength.

“No place for a little girl to be wandering alone.” “She’s not alone.” Gendry looked almost a man grown and dangerous.”

When Arya wants to fight him he doesn't because of his advantage of having strength and likely because he's male. In the next book when they wrestle he uses his strength to hold her down.

Joffrey may have been unaware of his size and how to use that to his advantage. When he fought Arya he could have easily killed her with the sword if he had awareness of his size and strength and did a similar move to Gendry.

Speaking of which I later remembered that height is an area where Jon seemed insecure in AGoT when he was dismayed over Joffrey being so much taller than him and Robb.

More on Gendry though he doesn't seem aware of his good looks and the sexual aspect of his body. He's embarrassed when complimented on his muscles.

When Brienne remarks upon his face he gets defensive and assumes she's calling him ugly.

“You have black hair and blue eyes, and you were born in

the shadow of the Red Keep. Has no one ever remarked

upon your face?”

“What’s wrong with my face? It’s not as ugly as

yours.”

He looks like Renly and maybe Robert in his prime so he should be very handsome.

To expand more on Aurane Waters I believe he knew that he was handsome and used it to advantage to gain Cersei's favor.

Status can also play a part in how one sees oneself. Both Gendry and Aurane was bastards but I imagine that Aurane's father provided for him.

He doesn't have so much hang ups about being a bastard and still is ambitious so he may be more likely to have self awareness.

On to Ashara. She sounded very attractive and seemed to have something very gravitating about her. She was surrounded by men IIRC at Harrenhal. I'm not sold on her being Septa Lemore but if she is she was probably confident before and kept it still while aging.

In all seriousness, I think Asha is the most healthy by way of self-image and beauty. She knows she isn't the most beautiful, and so does not use her looks to seduce people, but she knows she is no longer the ugly child she once was and that gives her the confidence to go out and grab the world with both hands. I wish I was more like her.

I think an important quality for Asha is her confidence. She carries herself like an attractive woman therefore becomes one to men and to the readers.

[butterbumps!]

Cat is hardly middle aged or not young. Isn't she 34/ 35 in a GoT?

[Blisscraft]

no praise for arses for grrm, it seems to be all about teats and nips.

Definitely not a booty or leg man. However, it is hard to tell when the women all wear long dresses or boys clothes or armor. We nee some shorts and minis! :blushing:

[ARYa_Nym]

It was mentioned in another thread that Jaime checked out Taena's ass.

& in another thread it was mentioned that Asha has nice legs.

In ADWD, Arya reflects that her legs are growing longer and a water dancer needs nice legs.