Beauty and self-image

[PatrickStormborn]

I thought Catelyn was very much aware of her appearance? I remember her commenting on it, but without being fixated on it. From what I recall, she is aware of the fact that she is beautiful, but she doesn't brag about it or use it to judge other women.

Daenerys doesn't even think about her beauty, as far as I can remember. That isn't healthy, imo, any more than fixating (positively or negatively) over it is.

[The Storm Queen]

Women: Cat, Asha and Ellaria

Girls: Sansa and Marg

Men: Oberyn Martell first comes to my mind. Probably Davos, too.

[David Selig]

I thought Catelyn was very much aware of her appearance? I remember her commenting on it, but without being fixated on it.

I tried to think of an example, and only this came to mind, when she was speaking about Sansa "Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that."

Daenerys doesn't even think about her beauty, as far as I can remember. That isn't healthy, imo, any more than fixating (positively or negatively) over it is.

I very much agree.

[ARYa_Nym]

I only remember Catelyn speaking about her looks in relation to her children but there could be other examples.

“Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine."

She reflects on how her children look like her especially Sansa and how Arya does not.

Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that. I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. She had auburn hair, lighter than mine…the red in it would catch the light of the torches and shine like copper. And Arya, well...Ned's vistors would oft mistake her for a stableboy...Arya was a trial...She had Ned's long face, and brown hair that always looked as though a bird had been nesting in it. I despaired of ever making a lady of her.

Brienne wondered whether Willow might be more than she appeared. The girl was too young and too plain to be Sansa Stark, but she was of the right age to be the younger sister, and even Lady Catelyn had said that Arya lacked her sister’s beauty.

[Blisscraft]

It was mentioned in another thread that Jaime checked out Taena's ass.

& in another thread it was mentioned that Asha has nice legs.

In ADWD, Arya reflects that her legs are growing longer and a water dancer needs nice legs.

It's true, a couple of mentions of the lower regions, but compared to all of the "teats" it seems meager.

[Rolex Baratheon]

FYI, Davos is described as very ordinary looking.

[ARYa_Nym]

I thought Catelyn was very much aware of her appearance? I remember her commenting on it, but without being fixated on it. From what I recall, she is aware of the fact that she is beautiful, but she doesn't brag about it or use it to judge other women.

I don't think she uses her own looks to judge other women.

She is aware that woman's worth is closely related to how beautiful she is hence her pity for Brienne and the comment about is there nothing so unfortunate as an ugly woman.

Her description of Brienne and of Arya are quite similar to me. She seemed to worry about Arya's looks and how she can be a respectable marriage partner.

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement.

"And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too."

[Arkantos]

Daenerys doesn't even think about her beauty, as far as I can remember. That isn't healthy, imo, any more than fixating (positively or negatively) over it is.

Why isn't it healthy to not think about her beauty?

[Rolex Baratheon]

I had a temporary crush on Catelyn Stark when I saw her wearing that hood of hers. Looked very attractive in it.

[ARYa_Nym]

Someone with really poor self image I would say is Jonella Cerwyn. She is kind of fat and is homely. She's in her '30s and isn't married. I noticed that she didn't look up from her plate while eating. She may be extremely shy. Cley and Lord Cerwyn were killed so I wonder what she'll do now.

This is very different to Lord Manderly who is fat and knows that it causes people to underestimate him. He still wants and demands respect though and was able to be married off and have heirs.

[lilenadheas]

I had a temporary crush on Catelyn Stark when I saw her wearing that hood of hers. Looked very attractive in it.

What hood? TV series?

I don't think Dany's lack of awareness or consciousness of her own beauty is unhealthy so much as unrealistic, since nearly every major male figure in her life has wanted to jump her bones. Even Illyrio wanted to bed her when she was thirteen. Maybe it is a coping mechanism, related to the abuse at the hands of her brother? She does seem a little off in her expectation of the male gaze, such as being offended when Selmy won't look at her exposed breast, and wistfully recalls that Jorah would have looked.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I always imagined Dany as being very beautiful, but not having big breasts like Catelyn or a big ass

[butterbumps!]

Actually, I'm also wondering why it's not healthy not to think of one's appearance. I mean, in Dany's case, it's not related to unkemptness or hygiene issues (god only knows how many times she bathes in a day in Meereen, lol). What might be unhealthy about not thinking about it?

ETA:

I always imagined Dany as being very beautiful, but not having big breasts like Catelyn or a big ass

Yea, actually there's quite a bit of description devoted to "Dany's small breasts," which on occasion like to "move freely" especially in Dothraki clothes, as was the subject of a particularly heated thread a few months back. So yea, she has small breasts.

[Le Cygne]

Then there are characters like Arya and Brienne who are probably not all that bad looking, but are called ugly by others and think of themselves that way.

I never thought they were ugly (whatever ugly means, that's as subjective a term as beauty).

Both of them wrestle with the words "beauty" and "pretty" because they've gone down a different path than most women, and the world around them doesn't seem to know what to do about it.

Actually, in the most recent Wiki, Arya is described as pretty now, and one can assume she will grow into a beauty like Lyanna.

Brienne's description got the opposite treatment on Wiki. Points of view are not fact, and subtext and context matter, but you'd never know it reading that. The Wiki writer has decided for us what feminine is, what attractive is, what ugly is.

[PatrickStormborn]

Actually, I'm also wondering why it's not healthy not to think of one's appearance. I mean, in Dany's case, it's not related to unkemptness or hygiene issues (god only knows how many times she bathes in a day in Meereen, lol). What might be unhealthy about not thinking about it?

I find it unhealthy because everyone around her is constantly talking of her beauty; she's "the most beautiful woman in the world", according to her suitors. And yet she never once even THINKS about her appearance. I'm not saying it's unhealthy that she doesn't embrace her beauty and think about how great it is to be beautiful, etc. I just mean that I find it ... odd? that it's so absent from her thoughts. I can't decide whether it shows her lack of confidence/humility (perhaps she feels disconnected from her body?).

Maybe I just find it strange because we live in an age where body image is such a huge issue, and it's hard for me to imagine anyone not thinking about their appearance at all.

Anyway, the thread is about characters who have a realistic understanding of their body image (or that's how I understood it). Not thinking about your appearance (apart from your breasts) does not fit that, imo, just as fixating on your appearance does not fit that (Cersei, Arya, Tyrion, etc.). This is why I think Catelyn has the best approach to her body. She doesn't ignore it or use it to determine her worth; it's a part of her that she's aware of, and she's realistic about it. But then again that just pretty much describes Cat in a nutshell!

[Alia of the knife]

I predict Arya will have long legs and Cats ta ta's- and she won't be happy about the boobs.

I also think she'll actually be tall as Jon compared her to Alys Karstark.

[butterbumps!]

Oh I see now- you weren't really saying this in a universal sense, but more Dany specifically.

Do you think that part of the reason Dany doesn't think or dwell on her appearance is because her beauty is constantly affirmed by those around her? I suppose that this could play out in many ways, but perhaps it might explain why she never quantifies it? And what's interesting, is that I think Dany is really in tune with her body as a body, not necessarily in terms of how it looks but performs (I see a similar thing with Arya). I kind of think that this is a really healthy way of thinking about one's physicality.

I predict Arya will have long legs and Cats ta ta's- and she won't be happy about the boobs.

I also think she'll actually be tall as Jon compared her to Alys Karstark.

You know, I always picture the grown women with the Stark look a lot like Angelina Jolie (who's actually not that tall, incidentally). It's a look that wasn't really recognized as beautiful until fairly recently I think, and it's also a look that tends to appear somewhat awkward in childhood.

[ARYa_Nym]

I predict Arya will have long legs and Cats ta ta's- and she won't be happy about the boobs.

I also think she'll actually be tall as Jon compared her to Alys Karstark.

As it stands now she's written as petite. She could grow to be tall but I think she will be small.

Bran also compared her to Meera. & it's been referenced how small and quick she is.

Arya doesn't want to be a boy though and disliked being mistaken for a boy.

“I’m not his stupid son!” said Arya furiously. That was even worse than being taken for a boy.”

Although at the same time she didn't/couldn't upkeep her hygiene so that is going to effect how she looks to people.

"It was even worse than before; Lady Smallwood insisted that Arya take another bath, and cut and comb her hair besides, the dress she put her in this time was sort of lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls. The only good thing about it was that it was so delicate that no one could expect her to ride in it..."

I don't think she has Peter Pan syndrome.

“The lightening lord is everywhere and nowhere, skinny squirrel.” “I’m not a squirrel,” she said. “I’ll almost be a woman soon. I’ll be one-and-ten.” “Best watch out I don’t marry you, then!” He tried to tickle her under the chin, but Arya slapped his stupid hand away.”

[TheMysteriousOne]

I think Daenerys is still learning to be confident and independent. I mean, she lived most of her life under the abusive Viserys, so I'm pretty sure she never tried to draw power and attention to herself, like Cersei knows how to, because of how useless Viserys made her feel. She never really lived the typical 'highborn' life, where a woman's value is determined mainly by her beauty.

[Florina Laufeyson]

A woman cannot answer. A woman requires hands-on experimentation.

Arr. :devil:

Why isn't it healthy to not think about her beauty?

I dont know. Perhaps Dany just never really thought about it. With all the things going on around her and Viserys's treatment, she might not have had any real time to dwell on her looks.

Actually, I'm also wondering why it's not healthy not to think of one's appearance. I mean, in Dany's case, it's not related to unkemptness or hygiene issues (god only knows how many times she bathes in a day in Meereen, lol). What might be unhealthy about not thinking about it? ETA: Yea, actually there's quite a bit of description devoted to "Dany's small breasts," which on occasion like to "move freely" especially in Dothraki clothes, as was the subject of a particularly heated thread a few months back. So yea, she has small breasts.

I assumed Dany had little time to ponder her looks what with all the moving around she did and later, ruling she had to attempt. Also can i have a link to that thread? Sounds entertaining!