Heresy 24

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 24

If you’ve been here before it needs no introduction, but if you’re new or have simply been intimidated (or bemused) by the fact there are 23 earlier incarnations of what originally started off as The Wall, The Watch and a Heresy, its actually pretty straightforward – on the surface at least.

The point of the thread is that the Song of Ice and Fire is so successful because it is not only complex but multi-layered and isn’t a straightforward matter of revealing R+L=J, who will turn out to be AA, marry Dany and ride a dragon to victory over the Others in order to take his rightful place on the Iron Throne.

Some of us had our suspicions before, but ADwD opened up a much darker or at least very much greyer destiny for the Starks. Heresy is about challenging those early (and quite frankly pedestrian) assumptions and trying to figure out what’s really going on, by questioning the real purpose of the Wall and the true origins of the Watch, and considering the heretical thought that the Others might not be the real danger facing Westeros, that there might be a connection to the Starks and that both may need to save Westeros from Dany and her amazing dragons.

In the search for clues we’ve considered a lot of options and consulted a lot of sources, chiefly centring around Celtic and Norse mythology, drawn from Welsh sources such as the Mabinogion, where Bran comes from; Irish ones for the Morrigan (three eyed crow and) and the Sidhe; Scottish ones for Tam Lin (Bael) and the Queen of Faerie; and the Prose Eddas for Hodor, as we try to explore the true nature of the Others.

Either way, GRRM has told us that they’re not dead, that we’re going to see the Land of Always Winter, that we’re going to learn more of the Others and their history – and that there is a connection to the Children, all of which is a long way from Old Nan’s description of them as cold, dead things, hating all life.

If you’ve been around the thread for a while, you’ll know what its about. If you’re new, don’t hesitate to ask and if you have the fortitude for it links to the previous chapters of the thread are given below.

Above all don’t be intimidated. Offer your opinions and theories and see what happens. One poster recently asked what we Heretics believe in and defend? The short answer to that one is that we believe that a lot of what we were told at the beginning is mince and that its not straightforward. There are one or two core heresies that the Starks are not as nice and cuddly as they might have appeared, but there’s no solid agreement on exactly what their relation is to the Faerie races, who built the Wall (and why) or the true origin of the Watch.

All we insist upon in this thread is that discussion – and arguments – be conducted with good humour and a respect for the opinions of others.

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.wester...9643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.wester...0033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.wester...0554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.wester...0972-heresy-18/

http://asoiaf.wester...1492-heresy-19/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71971-heresy-20/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72274-heresy-21/

[Neo]

As a regular reader and fairly infrequent poster on this forum, I would just like to take this opportunity to thank you Black Crow, and all of the other Heretics, that have made these threads so insightful and absorbing.

I doff my cap, sers. A fantastic effort, and hopefully much more to come.

[Kessell]

Hello heretics, long time reader first time poster here.

Having read through most pages of the various threads I wanted to touch on an issue I can't seem to recall being discussed in great detail, though if I've just not been reading carefully please enlighten me. Namely Divine Right. By looking at the various forms of divine right in ASOIAF and how it plays into the Starks as kings of winter, AA and other stuff

Ill start by giving an overview of the various faiths that have an impact on Westeros and how i see them using divine right as a way to legitimise various rulers.

Faith of the Seven, lends legitimacy to the claim to the Iron Throne, a manufactured faith for a manufactured kingdom perhaps. Before that I assume it would lend it's legitimacy to the various Andal kings in Westeros. This granted right does not seem to require any prerequisits other than being anointed in the faith, but also does not seem to grant any 'added value' to the kings in the terms of magical activity. It is however full of irony and symbolism, so it might be the most human (and least divine) of the faiths on offer. As shown in AFFC and ADWD it's primary practical power comes from people, not magic.

Old Gods, I use this term to encompass all the pre Andal invasion faiths of the first men:

Trees and Children, only two incarnations of this faith remain in south of the wall Westeros, the northern faith we see with the Starks and other 'first men' houses, and the 'greener' faith the crannogmen practise, though these are most probably simply regional differences more than diferences in belief. These two form of Old god worship are more closly entwined than the drowned god and storm god aspects of the Old gods, which to put it simply seem like water and air worship as opossed to earth. Also the Starks are the only remaining "kingly-line" that has remained ruler of their kingdom since pre Andal invasion. Are the warg abilities a reaffirmation of that divine right? How much of a role has 3EC / BR played in bringing the Starks towards the earthy aspect of this faith through Bran? And what would a connection between the Starks and an Icy form of Old god worship look like? Or are we seeing various Stark children connecting with various incarnations or aspects of the Old Gods? Since the old gods have been pushed to the background over the last centuries we don't know much about the manner of worship as it was when the granted legitimacy would have been important. For all we know the possible human sacrifes could have been primarily politically motivated, though of course we are led to believe it has a more mystical nature. What we can see is that there is no affirmation of faith required on Bran's part to tap into the weirnet, obviously speculation is rife as to what will be the eventual cost, but it is noteworthy that he is not required to 'kneel' to something out of his world, only warned that he may not want to get back up. This is something else relativly unique to this faith, namely that it does not consist of otherworldly aspects as of yet, only supernatural. The difference is clear simply because the supernatural is, to stay with Bran, tangible.

Drowned God, Ill be perfectly honest here, I tend to drift when re reading damphair chapters so its a tad fuzzy, but hopefully someone can help me out here. What i can say is of course that the drowned god followers are originally seafaring first men that have had a sea-centric faith since pre Andal invasion. They choose amongst their best who is to lead them through a kingsmoot, with the faith providing the paramaters of what constitutes the 'best'. If i recall correctly according to legend the faith was founded as a result of a man washing up on the Iron Isles, being gifted back from the sea, after having come from the West. We have the magic of CPR, which is, as far as i can recall, what lends the faith most of its credibility. It obviously feeds into the disire for people to take from 'foreign lessers', much like the Dothraki, especially when things at home are not great. And possibly the prophetic ability of patchface, though how this might just be a case of a possible child of Brightflame having targdreams/madness combined with near death drowning expierence...

Storm God, I really don't know what i wanted to add here other than that it's apparantly the nemisis of the drowned god, for whatever that's worth. Though we see it playing into the link between the children and ravens, words being wind and all ;). And it was the god of the Storm king in the Stormlands who ruled from Storms End. I don't recall if "the hedge knight" contained anything about the Barathion lord at the tourney with regard to the history of the former Stormlands kings line. But I don't think we know that much about this faith other than it's link to the children through the ravens and the spells or wards that guard Storms End.

Red God, we have seen two messiahs being proclaimed by followers of this faith, whose are divinely blessed to ward of darkness. Obviously Mel is alone on Stannis and a large part of Essos is being told about Dany. As far as i think we know only AA / AAR has been infused with divine right when it comes to the red lot. Their messiah is proclaimed after having fufilled a prophecy including miracles as a form of rebirth and a 'flaming sword'. This person basically must do what ever it is they do that is needed to save humanity by warding off the darkness from what is commonly seen as another long night. It is basically a faith that subscribes to a form of deus ex machina that doesn't seem to fit with Martins story. It seems to come down to fire worship for it's ability to ward of the darkness and what comes with it, with regard to the references to dead people rising. but there is a second aspect to it. This is where it seems to be more mystical as opposed to practical, namely the fire visions. They seem to be genuine predictictions though perhaps less clear but with a wider reach than the weirnet, also as of yet I can not recall the weirnet predicting the future, which is seemingly what the fire visions do exclusivly. The other stark (forgive the pun) difference between the weirnet sight and the fire sight is the need to praise a god that has no tangible presence in there world. Only the result of said worship is seemingly tangible (though I'm am not convinced there really is a r'hllor as discribed by the red priests, though there might be something that responds to that name). Side note here, Beric was reborn and had a flaming sword, but Thoros never went down that road publicly.

What this comes down to is to is we have possible 'evidence' for the R'hllor sanctioned divine right being shown by confirming that fire kills wights and the fire predictions are not complete BS and of course the possible AAR, as we have had from the start of the series. Although obviously this by no means has to play out as the red priests predict, and also doesn't mean the red god is a giant red herring. The faith of the seven hasn't really shown us anything more than politically motivated actions and seems to only have effect through how it influences it's followers, and not through any 'direct' involvement or supernatural happenings which is why i would like to discribe it as the faith of the game of thrones. But what i find more interesting is the lack of 'divine' right with the old gods due to the sheer lack of divinity or otherworldlyness in the Old god worship, but the clear inclusion of supernatural elements. What i mean by this is that even if the others are a fearie race they are still observable, just like the children, ravens, direwolves and the weirwoods. The weirnet accuracy can be theoretically be tested. In essence the worship of the old gods has nothing to do with belief in something with no tangible basis or demonstrable evidence, which plays a key role in both the aforementioned religions. The ones being worshipped are those who are connected to weirwoods, or the weirwoods themselves, who theoretically could be in plain sight right where the statue of Balor the blessed is in KL, in an alternate universe where they kept extensive records and all races lived happily side by side. Worshipping the old gods means worship of things that are all tangible and accessible but are potentially awe inspiring (this does rest on the basis that the 'weirnet' wasnt just Bran tripping).

ending my ravings here, please feel free too take it apart and feed it to the goats.

[squnchyTHEconchy]

sorry sorry sorry sorry osrry for this BUT! ....is there speculation that brandon stark may be coldhands O.o ..... maybe like in someway patrolling the pact or something.... i just read heresy 2 and am confused as shiznits right now :(

[Black Crow]

Speculation as to the identity of Coldhands has been ongoing for a very long time with no firm clues far less conclusions offered so far. There's even a suggestion that whoever he is may be warging somebody else's corpse. If you're only on Heresy 2 take it easy and in small doses, you're in for a great ride but sit back and enjoy it rather than reaching for the intravenous black coffee :cool4:

[Black Crow]

Kessell - splendid post - about to dash off to work so don't have time to respond properly, but some interesting ideas in there which I like.

[FanTasy]

Kudo's Kessell and please continue posting :cheers:

Thanks for bringing up the connection of having received the breath of fire and having a flaming sword. I wondered about Beric's sword but never made the connection that having the breath of R'hlor in you could have an effect on your sword.

This could be an explananation why Stannis' sword seems to become more convincing, as Jon notices in ADWD.

Of course this could be because a glamor of Mel works better at the Wall, because her powers are growing there.

The sword at Dragonstone was obviously a very weak trick, but something happened at that scene in ADWD.

Which makes me wonder, was it just a glamor that was stronger, or did Mel give Stannis a breath of life somewhere when they were staying at the Wall?Perhaps to make him stronger after his obvious weakening having produced two shadowbabies?

[Lummel]

sorry sorry sorry sorry osrry for this BUT! ....is there speculation that brandon stark may be coldhands O.o ..... maybe like in someway patrolling the pact or something.... i just read heresy 2 and am confused as shiznits right now :(

It's extremely unlikely that Cold Hands is Brandon Stark (you do mean Brandon Stark the brother of the The Ned don't you? If not which Brandon Stark do you mean?) since he strangled himself in Kings Landing and was buried in Wintefell with iron over his coffin to stop his soul from wandering.

There was been speculation that the Night's King is Coldhands, but then it would be speculation to assume that his name was definitely Brandon ;)

[turinturambar1]

I think he means Brandon Snow bastard brother of Torrhen Stark the last King in the north.And it could be very possible that he is coldhands , he wanted to kill the dragons with weirwood arrows and that was less than 300 years before , in ADWD leaf tells Bran that they have killed him long a go , also in ADWD Bran wargs into the heart tree in winterfell and has 6 visions in one of the visions we have this : A pale dark eyed youth cutting three branches from the weirwood and shaping them into arrows.

[Lummel]

I don't see that as a very possible person to be Coldhands personally, he's just a name with currently no known link to beyond the Wall. :dunno:

[Ciazio]

snip

Thank you Kessel, very nice reading! Keep on providing new interesting stuffs!

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Except he is behind the wall. And Was previously a night's watchmen and has black eyes. Which I think has to do with his vows. We know nights watchmen can become wights. I.e. chett and party. But I think there is something about the magic of coldhands and his black garb and black eyes that has to do with the night's watch. He is a wight who has maintained his soul. Or at least control of his body and can speak. He's definitely linked to beyond the wall. He can't even pass through the gate. I don't know why you would think that's not a link.

[Lummel]

Lord Liam DarkStark - you mean Benjen Stark perhaps who is a different person to Brandon Stark?

Benjen Stark we can pretty much rule out as coldhands.

Coldhands died long ago, knows about the gate under the Night Fort and speaks Old Tongue (or some other language which Bran (our Bran) doesn't recognise). If Bejen is dead then he died recently, he knows that the Night Fort was abandoned long ago and nobody at or south of the Wall currently speaks old tongue apart from the most recent wildling arrivals.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

When did I mention benjen or brandon?

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I'm just saying coldhands is linked to beyond the wall and possibly the night's watch. First hero, night's king, or some lost stark. I don't think benjen should be ruled out. I found it odd coldhands hides his identity from bran. Seems like something benjen would do. Long ago could mean a year to several thousand years its an inspecific time length. Although everyone uses it as evidence. Leaf says they already killed him long ago. Just cause she is old doesn't shed light on her meaning of long ago. I find coldhands is a wildcard a mystery as much as aegon is.

[FanTasy]

The key to Coldhands' identity I suspect is what he says to Bran when Bran asks him who he is: "Your monster, Brandon Stark." ADWD Bran 1

We have discussed this before. Is he adressing Bran or does he tell Bran his (Coldhands) name?

[7V3N]

I'm just saying coldhands is linked to beyond the wall and possibly the night's watch. First hero, night's king, or some lost stark. I don't think benjen should be ruled out. I found it odd coldhands hides his identity from bran. Seems like something benjen would do. Long ago could mean a year to several thousand years its an inspecific time length. Although everyone uses it as evidence. Leaf says they already killed him long ago. Just cause she is old doesn't shed light on her meaning of long ago. I find coldhands is a wildcard a mystery as much as aegon is.

He meant Brandon Stark (or Snow). The one who squnchyTHEconchy originally suggested. Not Coldhands. Coldhands is undoubtly connected to beyond the Wall, and is in fact trapped there it seems. I don't think anyone disputed that, rather who Colhands is. His supposed secret and important identity. It must be someone with connections beyond the Wall and we have no reason to suspect strangled Brandon Stark nor Brandon Snow (the dragon-assassin). Then there is this legendary Brandon the Builder--if he built the Wall he certainly is connected to the North-North.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

He meant Brandon Stark (or Snow). The one who squnchyTHEconchy originally suggested. Not Coldhands. Coldhands is undoubtly connected to beyond the Wall, and is in fact trapped there it seems. I don't think anyone disputed that, rather who Colhands is. His supposed secret and important identity. It must be someone with connections beyond the Wall and we have no reason to suspect strangled Brandon Stark nor Brandon Snow (the dragon-assassin). Then there is this legendary Brandon the Builder--if he built the Wall he certainly is connected to the North-North.

Yepp. I'm doubtful its brandon stark. Just wouldn't go with storyline as well imo

But brandon snow shouldn't be ruled out I suppose. I just don't see where they killed him long ago would fit. But I don't think he was killed by wights. And isn't that most likely what leaf meant. Coldhands was killed by wights. Brandon stark was killed by the mad king and his own stubborness.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Yepp. I'm doubtful its brandon stark. Just wouldn't go with storyline as well imo

But brandon snow shouldn't be ruled out I suppose. I just don't see where they killed him long ago would fit. But I don't think he was killed by wights. And isn't that most likely what leaf meant. Coldhands was killed by wights. Brandon stark was killed by the mad king and his own stubborness.

Not that Brandon Stark. It could be any old Brandon, but many think that he is the Night King, and a Brandon Stark, like Old Nan said.