Roxy Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 not to Jaime Lannister but to Robert Baratheon in the Trident. According to GRRM Rhaegar died with a woman's name on his lips. It could be Lyanna since her abduction was what started the war but it could also be Visenya. Rhaegar was obsessed with the three heads of the dragon and he had already named his children Aegon and Rhaenys. Are there any theories or ,ore information on that?I agree with this theory. I've always assumed that the name Rhaegar died saying was Visenya because it makes the most sense. We know he was obsessed with fulfilling that prophecy and completing his trio of children named for the original three conquerors (which was probably his intent in kidnapping Lyanna in the first place). Him saying Lyanna doesn't make sense because if he had, Dany would have noted it because she would have recognized the name and who it belonged to. She did in a previous vision with Rhaegar and Elia naming Aegon.We know Viserys had been Dany stories about their family and what happened to them which were skewed in the Targ's favor and aren't always very true. That's why she thinks of "Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved." If he had said Lyanna, then that would have confirmed her brother's lies about Rhaegar being some romantic hero and the name would have been noted rather then just categorized as "a woman's name." Because there were no living Visenya's at the time, she had no person he might have known to connect it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I used the "love" angle because most people believe in it. But among all, the prophecy motivation for Rhaegar is the most believable for me. We just need to know Lyanna's role in the story (I believe she was kidnapped). The love story maybe true also, I didn't rule out. It's just a bit simplistic.Ok, does that mean you believe in R+L=J being true? Or was I thinking of another person denying it? Or did nobody deny the theory, but only the "true love" thing? I'm sorry if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 "I banged your girl dude. LOL" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Soprano Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I am still not convicned of this perfect romantic attatchment between L + R. What are you using as refferance? I don't really have any real references. I'm just sort of following my gut, like most people.No real firm evidence anywhere, it's just that I don't want to think of Rhaegar as some rapist, so I prefer to think there was a romantic angle to the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 If anything Dany should be more familiar with the name Visenya than Lyanna. I'm sure Viserys boasted of Aegon's conquest even if she didn't know the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I find it kind of ironic and sad that not one of the posts here even entertain the possibility that the woman's name he said might be that of his wife: Elia. As in the one he married and had two kids with? The one he probably horribly embarassed and hurt with the whole Lyanna business? Not to mention the one whose death, and the death of whose child(ren), he remotely caused by starting the whole bloody mess with Miss Blue Winter Roses?Geez! Even Lollys got a mention for pete's sake! :shocked:I don't think she got a mention because Rhaegar obviously didn't give crap about her or anything aside from fulfilling that prophecy. She's a tragic figure to be sure, but once she lost her childbearing abilities, she probably lost her worth for Rhaegar. Why else would he insist that their needs to be one more child, publicly humiliate her at a tourney by picking some girl over her, and then kidnap that same young girl (probably to produce the third child with)? As nice as we hear Elia was, her name would not have been on his lips.If anything Dany should be more familiar with the name Visenya than Lyanna. I'm sure Viserys boasted of Aegon's conquest even if she didn't know the details.I didn't say she would be unfamiliar with the name Visenya. She would just have no one from the near history to connect it with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 In my opinion, it would be really cool if he had said Visenya.I think it would be pretty interesting if, as others have stated in previous threads, that Rhaegar realized that he couldn't have any more children with Elia, so he sought out another women, potentially with Elia's approval, to give him his Visenya. He saw Lyanna, who may have been the KotLT, as a fiery, willful and beautiful woman, and thought that she would likely be the best option for potential mothers for Visenya. Perhaps Lyanna loved Rhaegar, while Rhaegar only saw Lyanna as the best option for mothering the third head of the dragon. Of course, he would still have the utmost respect and admiration for Lyanna, but it wouldn't be a storybook type of love. I think that this would be pretty cool, especially because "Visenya" ended up being Jon, further illustrating that even for a man as great as Rhaegar, life is not a song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsManderly Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I don't think she got a mention because Rhaegar obviously didn't give crap about her or anything aside from fulfilling that prophecy. She's a tragic figure to be sure, but once she lost her childbearing abilities, she probably lost her worth for Rhaegar. Why else would he insist that their needs to be one more child, publicly humiliate her at a tourney by picking some girl over her, and then kidnap that same young girl (probably to produce the third child with)? As nice as we hear Elia was, her name would not have been on his lips.I didn't say she would be unfamiliar with the name Visenya. She would just have no one from the near history to connect it with.I was partially being facetious, and it would be a cliche, but there is such a thing as a last minute pang of conscience. As in: "Elia! Darn, I really have f***ed her over in more ways than one! My bad" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealbiest Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Lyanna. Just to spite Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I was partially being facetious, and it would be a cliche, but there is such a thing as a last minute pang of conscience. As in: "Elia! Darn, I really have f***ed her over in more ways than one! My bad"It would be nice to find out that he actually said his wife's name and attempted to be true to her at least in his last moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Mommeeeee! Make it stop hurting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 On this I'm gonna take a romantic position and say that Rhaegar said "Lyanna". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Maybe cliché is the wrong word, but R+L theory seems to perfectly fit with the chivalry stories of the old, or even the plot of some romantic stories of nowadays. A girl forced into marriage with someone she doesn't love. She runs away with her one true love, a beautiful prince admired by everybody who also is a wonderful singer . A war begins because of that. They both died in the end, him whispering her name while dying and her giving birth to the fruit of their love, The theory is just too perfect. Way romantic. The clues are too obvious. I don't think Martin would do that (or at least I hope not). The only way I see for this romance to work is to show both Rhaegar and Lyanna under not so sympathetic lights in the end.Because If they did that, what they did was very, very, selfish, which doesn't fit either with what was shown of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the books (a view which may be distorted by the people who loved them ). Lyanna, even though she was a teenager, seems responsible, thoughtful and sensitive. I don't think she would willingly run away with a married man father of two children leaving her family to deal with the terrible implications of such act. Rhaegar is more of a mystery to me. He seemed to have been a decent and honourable man, why he would run away with a girl, abandoning his wife and children, and knowing fully well the political consequences of that? The only way I see it working is if both (especially Rhaegar, since Lyanna is a teen), are not the decent people we thought they were. And no "great love story" would change that much. This affair sounds to me like Lancelot and Guinevere, like the songs Sansa used to love. And we know fully well Westero isn't like Sansa's songs.Maybe Robert vision's of Rhaegar may be colored by hate or maybe not. I don't discount Robert's view of him or the theory that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna, he may have been one of the few (or the only one) who saw Rhaegar's true face. Who knows?I find it kind of ironic and sad that not one of the posts here even entertain the possibility that the woman's name he said might be that of his wife: Elia. As in the one he married and had two kids with? The one he probably horribly embarassed and hurt with the whole Lyanna business? Not to mention the one whose death, and the death of whose child(ren), he remotely caused by starting the whole bloody mess with Miss Blue Winter Roses?Geez! Even Lollys got a mention for pete's sake! :shocked:Targaryens are practicers of. not only incest, but plural marriage, so Rhaegar would not have thought of his marriage to Lyanna as abandoning Elia and his first two children. I say "marriage", because the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy. I do not think they would have remained there or protected Lyanna if they didn't feel they were protecting an heir to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Lyanna. Just to spite Robert.Maybe he even accompanied the name with an obscene gesture. :P Points at self.....Says Lyanna....makes hole with thumb and forefinger and places indexfinger through hole in repeditive motion...then smiles at Robert and dies :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I don't really have any real references. I'm just sort of following my gut, like most people.No real firm evidence anywhere, it's just that I don't want to think of Rhaegar as some rapist, so I prefer to think there was a romantic angle to the whole thing.I guess my gut tells me the opposite. we will have to wait and see :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
june_miller Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Ok, does that mean you believe in R+L=J being true? Or was I thinking of another person denying it? Or did nobody deny the theory, but only the "true love" thing? I'm sorry if so.I don't deny it. It may very well be true. I just think the whole Lyanna and Rhaegar business isn't exactly a love story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I don't deny it. It may very well be true. I just think the whole Lyanna and Rhaegar business isn't exactly a love story.Exactly....I think R + L = J is true...but it was more like the cultish indoctrination of a 15 year old girl by a religious zealot who thought he was giving birth to the saviors of the world and fulfilling a prophecy. Not some beautiful love story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire and Blood! Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think(and hope) that it was "Elia" said by a remorseful Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I don't deny it. It may very well be true. I just think the whole Lyanna and Rhaegar business isn't exactly a love story.Exactly....I think R + L = J is true...but it was more like the cultish indoctrination of a 15 year old girl by a religious zealot who thought he was giving birth to the saviors of the world and fulfilling a prophecy. Not some beautiful love story. OK, my bad, I thought one or both of you were denying R+L, sorry. Yes, it could very well be what you are saying, or maybe a mix of both.ETA: I am not convinced, but one possible evidence of why what you are saying could be true, is the Harenhal move with the Queen of Love and Beauty. If they were really in love, why would he make such a move that will raise so many eyebrows and could possibly work against the plan to escape together, and generally raise suspicion when it's far from needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Aemon I Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 "Mommmyyyyyy!!!!!!! " (A woman afterall) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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