The sins of the father -- Tywin edition

[Wolf_Blood]

In my mind i hold Tywin accountable only for #2 #3 #5

I can justify what he did to his father's mistress (boy did he give me an idea for my stepmother) since she took advantage of his weak father who was pudding in her hands. Also i honestly believe that he did forget about Elia and he thought that no one would hurt her seeing she was a Dornish Princess and had nothing to do with Aerys' madness. As for Rhaenys and Aegon who's to say that Robert wouldn't have them killed himself? His hatred for the Trgs was well known after all.It just happened to be Tywin to give the order just so he could be on the new King's good graces. I find Tywin pretty good actually. His only fault in my eyes is that he gave Tyrion-the son who was more like him- no attention

[Bright Blue Eyes]

In my mind i hold Tywin accountable only for #2 #3 #5

I can justify what he did to his father's mistress (boy did he give me an idea for my stepmother) since she took advantage of his weak father who was pudding in her hands. Also i honestly believe that he did forget about Elia and he thought that no one would hurt her seeing she was a Dornish Princess and had nothing to do with Aerys' madness. As for Rhaenys and Aegon who's to say that Robert wouldn't have them killed himself? His hatred for the Trgs was well known after all.It just happened to be Tywin to give the order just so he could be on the new King's good graces. I find Tywin pretty good actually. His only fault in my eyes is that he gave Tyrion-the son who was more like him- no attention

You frighten me.

[SeanF]

Horrible though Cersei is, it would be pretty awful if she, Tommen, and Myrcella were to suffer the same fate as Elia and her two children,

I assume that Cersei expects to suffer the same fate as Elia in ACOK, if Stannis' men break into the Red Keep, which is why she's instructed Ser Ilyn to kill her if that happens.

[Lyanna Stark]

Also i honestly believe that he did forget about Elia and he thought that no one would hurt her seeing she was a Dornish Princess and had nothing to do with Aerys' madness.

Tywin knew well that Aerys kept Elia and her children locked in Maegor's to prevent the Dornish from joining the rebellion. He then had Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch scale the walls. It's a whole load of horseshit from Tywin that he didn't know that they'd have Elia and the children killed. What he may not have expected was that Gregor raped Elia first. He claims he didn't know what he had in Gregor and Lorch, but that's doubtful at best. He's at the very least lying when he claims he "forgot" Elia.

We also see Tywin happily using Gregor and Lorch again in the Riverlands, with the strategy to pillage, rape, burn and murder everything in their path. It's also interesting that Tyrion cannot tell whether Tywin is pleased or disgusted when Gregor talks about really harsh punishments for failed scouts. In any case, we can surmise that Tywin finds Gregor's cruelty and ruthlessness extremely useful.

But in this case, I agree with Oberyn: Justice for Elia!

[Sworn Shield]

Twyin all ways said "there is a tool for every task, and task for every tool". I'm pretty sure Twyin knew what would happen if he sent Lorch and Gregor after Elia and the children. If he meant to keep them alive he would have sent one of his more noble Lords such as House Marbrand.

[Lyanna Stark]

Twyin all ways said "there is a tool for every task, and task for every tool". I'm pretty sure Twyin knew what would happen if he sent Lorch and Gregor after Elia and the children. If he meant to keep them alive he would have sent one of his more noble Lords such as House Marbrand.

Precisely.

I also think Tywin must have known how Sandor really got his burns, and the animosity between the Clegane brothers was no secret, plus even Ned "I am a bit clueless about the south" Stark, knew about Gregor's awful reputation. As Gregor's liege lord, it seems very unlikely Tywin didn't have an idea.

So no, Tywin didn't forget about Elia, he knew. And didn't care.

[Lummel]

...I can justify what he did to his father's mistress (boy did he give me an idea for my stepmother) since she took advantage of his weak father who was pudding in her hands...

Enjoying fantasies like that isn't a good idea. maybe you need to talk to somebody professionally?

...So no, Tywin didn't forget about Elia, he knew. And didn't care.

The whole point of having a terrifying weapon like a Clegane is to be able to unleash it knowing it will take care of business while leaving your hands clean. It allows enough room to be able to both deny direct responsibility and to profit from the fear you strike into would be enemies.

[Lyanna Stark]

The whole point of having a terrifying weapon like a Clegane is to be able to unleash it knowing it will take care of business while leaving your hands clean. It allows enough room to be able to both deny direct responsibility and to profit from the fear you strike into would be enemies.

Absolutely.

It definitely helped to boost Tywin's own "fear factor". He has men under his command who will do terrible things when unleashed, so don't upset Tywin. In a sense when it comes to ultra violence and pure humiliation, the rape and murder of Elia and her children is a direct continuation of the Rains of Castamere incidents with the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Tywin doesn't just defeat: he crushes completely and humiliates.

We see it again come out in when he marries Sansa off to Tyrion while planning for the Red Wedding. Again he goes after complete annihilation and humiliation.

In light of this, it would be odd had he somehow decided to stop acting like Godzilla vs Tokyo and sent someone like Adam Marbrand to deal with the Elia + kids situation. Marbrand also does not strike me as a killer of children, while Gregor and Lorch definitely are.

[Blisscraft]

Nara - I am struck by the fact that your list of atrocities are plotted by Tywin. He does not perform them himself, but rather relies upon others to execute his orders. His hands are clean, but his soul is dirty.

[Kolantero]

Absolutely.

It definitely helped to boost Tywin's own "fear factor". He has men under his command who will do terrible things when unleashed, so don't upset Tywin. In a sense when it comes to ultra violence and pure humiliation, the rape and murder of Elia and her children is a direct continuation of the Rains of Castamere incidents with the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Tywin doesn't just defeat: he crushes completely and humiliates.

We see it again come out in when he marries Sansa off to Tyrion while planning for the Red Wedding. Again he goes after complete annihilation and humiliation.

In light of this, it would be odd had he somehow decided to stop acting like Godzilla vs Tokyo and sent someone like Adam Marbrand to deal with the Elia + kids situation. Marbrand also does not strike me as a killer of children, while Gregor and Lorch definitely are.

I don't see any connection.

- Tarbeck and Castamere, personal and about sending a message which included complete crushing and humiliation

- Sansa's marriage with Tyrion, an excuse to claim Winterfell. I doubt that he wanted to humiliate the Stark family with that, I doubt he even hated them like Tarbecks and Reynes. And it makes sense to plan Sansa's wedding at the same time of planning the Red Wedding because only the RW and the death of Robb made Sansa+Tyrion's wedding having and worth. No unecessary humiliation and the only reason there is a complete crushing of the Starks family is to get his hands on WF.

- Elia's children, again pure buisness nothing more. He had to prove his loyalty to Robert and the children had to die to avoid future revolutions. If he was so hellbent on aveging all the Targaryens and eradicating their house because of his fallout with Aerys then he would have sent people to kill Viserys and Daenerys as well.

- Elia's rape and death, I do believe that he honestly forgot about that. He doesn't give a crap about people that are not his family, it makes sense that he pushed it away from his mind with all the things that were going on. Lorch and Clegane were sent to scale the walls because they were two men who wouldn't hesitate butchering the children. It makes no sense to have Elia raped and killed. She wasn't even a real Targaryen. What does the thing with Elia accomplish? Why piss the Martells much more than what it was actually necessary by killing Elia and not just Rhaegar's children? I believe Tywin on the Elia thing, not because he would hesitate to do it (and he is actually honest about admitting that the children "had to die") but because there was no point in doing it.

Tywin has no qualms about unleashing violence or utter destruction. But unlike Joffrey he does it for pragmatic reasons, not just to humiliate his opponents. Except from the Tarbecks & Reynes, I don't see him going for destruction and humiliation in the oter cases, they are more like byproducts of his actions and goals

[Silverin]

About the Reynes and Tarbecks. There was someone from one of the hoses who was a famous warrior and fighted on the side of the Blackfyres (maybe Rob Reyne? ). Since the Golden Company is made up from the descendants of Westerosi lords that were exiled because of their alliance, maybe among them there are still Reynes and Tarbecks as well. Or in other sellwords company where there are descendants of former Westerosi lords. I am just saing maybe they are not extinct as wee think.

The only one I think has a chance of survival is Myrcella (because she received the "lost her beauty", "scarred" plot armour).

Anyway I too think that the Lannister house will perish. If you think about it, Tywin was the one who made his House powerful and wealthy, and what was tyrion's first action as Lord of Castery Rock? Signing away all of their wealth. It already started.

But I am sure tyrion would play a major part in destroying his own house and the members of his own family after all if he wants to have those lands, he has to take it from the members of his own family. And most of them did look upt to tywin, so I doubt they would just happily give the lands to tyrion who killed him and with that weakened their house a lot.

Not to mention tyrion had a dream where he was killing the members of his own family. He had two face, one was laughing, enjoying it and one was crying. Not to mention wether he supports Aegon or Dany, both are against the Lannisters, so he would have to work against them.

Another thing, when tyrion was born there was all kind of gossip that he is the curse of tywin. Maybe those were not just mean gossips but maybe some future prophecies spreading. If you think it speaks about tywin that he didn'T killed his son, who was said to mean his downfall.

But I don't think tyrion can last much. He is a kinslayer after all, and according to the legends told they are cursed and will fall. I can see him getting some power but I do think it won'T last long and he will eventually fail. The only future I can see him surviving is him being the Last Lannister withouth any heir. Or maybe with a wife who does a Cersei on him, so his heirs won't be actual Lannisters, thus again ending the line of the house.

About Myrcella. If the incest thing will be accepted she won't inherit anything and the only way to survive will be for her to go East. If the incest won't come into light she is still a Baratheon, and as such she can get CR through her mom, but in that case CR will be in the hands of a Baratheon, and whatever the name of her husbands name will be can be the Lord of the Westernlands.

Or the Westerlands will be in the hands of someone else.

These are my theries because I am sure the Reynes of Castamere somehow will be mirrorred in the house's future downfall.

EDIT: I think the "damn it feels good to be a Lannister" is no longer that true.

[Mulled Wino]

He was talking to the Frey's, though. The people whom he promised the hands of his granddaughters (and we know how that one worked out. xD) "When treating with liars, even an honest man must lie."

I don't know, I kind of got the impression that he intends to go medieval on everyone who fought them, but I could be wrong. At any rate, Lannister's have enough enemies without the Manderly's.

Manderly knows that the Lannisters are behind everything. How could he not?

[Lummel]

The rape and murder of Elia are pragmatic - it sends a hell of a warning. If you mess with the Lannisters, there is no mercy, no horror that you will be spared, it doesn't matter who you are the consequences will be terrible.

Elia had political value as a hostage. She had cash value as someone who could be ransomed. Instead she is viciously murdered. It is an absolutely clear statement of ruthlessness on the part of Tywin.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't see any connection.

- Tarbeck and Castamere, personal and about sending a message which included complete crushing and humiliation

- Sansa's marriage with Tyrion, an excuse to claim Winterfell. I doubt that he wanted to humiliate the Stark family with that, I doubt he even hated them like Tarbecks and Reynes. And it makes sense to plan Sansa's wedding at the same time of planning the Red Wedding because only the RW and the death of Robb made Sansa+Tyrion's wedding having and worth. No unecessary humiliation and the only reason there is a complete crushing of the Starks family is to get his hands on WF.

- Elia's children, again pure buisness nothing more. He had to prove his loyalty to Robert and the children had to die to avoid future revolutions. If he was so hellbent on aveging all the Targaryens and eradicating their house because of his fallout with Aerys then he would have sent people to kill Viserys and Daenerys as well.

- Elia's rape and death, I do believe that he honestly forgot about that. He doesn't give a crap about people that are not his family, it makes sense that he pushed it away from his mind with all the things that were going on. Lorch and Clegane were sent to scale the walls because they were two men who wouldn't hesitate butchering the children. It makes no sense to have Elia raped and killed. She wasn't even a real Targaryen. What does the thing with Elia accomplish? Why piss the Martells much more than what it was actually necessary by killing Elia and not just Rhaegar's children? I believe Tywin on the Elia thing, not because he would hesitate to do it (and he is actually honest about admitting that the children "had to die") but because there was no point in doing it.

Tywin has no qualms about unleashing violence or utter destruction. But unlike Joffrey he does it for pragmatic reasons, not just to humiliate his opponents. Except from the Tarbecks & Reynes, I don't see him going for destruction and humiliation in the oter cases, they are more like byproducts of his actions and goals

and tywin says so himself, i forget the quote but- you crush your enemies, but when they bend the knee, you must help them up.

It was a huge stretch by Lyanna IMO. Tywin also states his plan with Sansa/Tyrion- he wasn't looking to have Tyrion take over the North immediately and it certainly wasnt personal.

[Mulled Wino]

The rape and murder of Elia are pragmatic - it sends a hell of a warning. If you mess with the Lannisters, there is no mercy, no horror that you will be spared, it doesn't matter who you are the consequences will be terrible.

Elia had political value as a hostage. She had cash value as someone who could be ransomed. Instead she is viciously murdered. It is an absolutely clear statement of ruthlessness on the part of Tywin.

Actually, it was part vengence no? Elia got Rhaegar over Cersei?

I still dont think Tywin wanted the rape and brutal stabbing of elia. He had them killed to prove to Robert who's side the Lannisters were on.

I mean if we're going to go with EXACTLY what the text states. It wasn't to demonstrate Lannister brutality or ruthlessness.

[Lummel]

True Mulled Wino, there is vengeance there too :). Don't marry the boys that the Lannisters have their eyes on or else!

[Blisscraft]

I agree about the vengence with regard to Elia, but I have a feeling it was more about Aerys rejection of Tywin as a "servant" whose daughter was not in the same class with his son than it was about anything else. Also, it seems to me that Tywin has an uncanny ability to chose the men to complete his desires. They are not only ruthlesss, but also loyal and cannot be bought by anyone else.

[SeanF]

In my mind i hold Tywin accountable only for #2 #3 #5

I can justify what he did to his father's mistress (boy did he give me an idea for my stepmother) since she took advantage of his weak father who was pudding in her hands.

I'd strongly advise you not to treat your step-mother in that manner.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Manderly knows that the Lannisters are behind everything. How could he not?

I know, that's what I also think. =)

He may have said "bless him" about Tywin front of the Frey's, but he is a clever man who's subtle enough to drop hints here and there that he is ABSOLUTELY loyal to the Iron Throne now. He knows that Lannister's are behind the RW, and I don't see how he shouldn't "bear any will" to Tywin, as some people have suggested.

[nara]

Lot's of great comments on the nature of Tywin's character. Whether you think he's pragmatic or cruel, do you think the horror of what he's done or caused to be done will be revisited on his family in the most brutal and appalling way?