The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]

[Gaston de Foix]

Jumbles, two more things that potentially might be added to the list.

Elderberry

the Moon, Auri, Lunacy and the Crockery. (Has someone written this up as a theory? I've been thinking about it all day...)

[jumbles]

Ok, I'm still working on updating the list. But I also wanted to bring something up that I noticed.

I already mentioned the iron, copper (brass, really), and silver locks on Kvothe's lute case and wondered if that meant anything about his thrice-locked chest. Once again the three materials show up with tinkers.

They'll sell "some fabulous piece of magic" for an iron penny, copper penny, and silver penny (WMFc75). Is there a reason silver gets grouped with the other two materials?

Also, what's the significance of coins? Auri gives Kvothe a silver coin. And Taborlin's tools are a key, coin, and candle. Really, all of Taborlin's tools seem strange to me. A key will unlock one thing usually, pretty strange for such an important tool for someone whose apparently done so much (as a side-note, Auri says the key she gives Kvothe goes to the moon). I don't really know why a coin would be a good tool. And at first I thought, of course a candle would be a good tool for a namer. But then a friend pointed out that a namer shouldn't need a candle; it's sympathists who use candles. So why is the candle so important for Taborlin? I'm pretty sure we never hear about Taborlin using sympathy. Auri gives Kvothe a candle. And there is the candle in the Lackless rhymes.

Sorry if this post is a bit disjointed.

[thistlepong]

Gaston, he's stated on two separate occasions on video that Auri's not really important to the plot, just to Kvothe. I keep thinking of Luna Lovegood. I'll try to post the links later.

Jumbles, this is also disjointed and will have to be fleshed out later. The iron-copper-silver penny actually occurs immediately, in NWc1, in Cob's Taborlin story. There are a couple possibilities. First, the currency is basically familiar and imaginable to the common listener. No one would believe, in their world or ours, a gold penny. Second, it could be another alchemical hat-tip: lead-tin-iron-copper-silver-gold. Tinkers asscoiated with iron, copper, silver may just be sneaky symbology that also liltingly recalls fairy tales.

[Loslathdos]

key will unlock one thing usually, pretty strange for such an important tool for someone whose apparently done so much

I don't know about the other but the key could be a skeleton key maybe ? Which would be pretty useful

I'm not saying that he MUST be Kvothe's son but there's definitely more than just friendship between them. And surely after his experience with Felurian Kvothe would be far more wary of the fae and wouldn't just take someone like Bast into his confidence just because he found him an amusing companion. Kvothe has known Bast for less time than nearly all his other friends and yet the two of them have this incredibly strong bond together. Even if Bast was an Amyr I don't think it would explain his devotion to Kvothe.

Interesting theory, but I still feel that he is just pure Fae, aren't his feet like animal feet or something? Maybe Kvothe helped him and he feels like he owes a debt, or maybe it's like a father-son relationship, but they're not actually related.

[Tears of Lys]

I've mentally played around with the theory that Bast is so closely tied to Kvothe because he needs Kvothe to reclaim his true name and regain his powers - to fix something maybe that was broken?

Yeah, Bast's true feet are "graceful cloven hooves."

[stumpzapper]

I don't know about the other but the key could be a skeleton key maybe ? Which would be pretty useful

According to the stories Taborlin the Great knew the names of all things, including locks. In one of the stories he strikes a chest and says "Edro" and it opens. If you had a magical lock-breaking punch I doubt you'd have much use for a skeleton key. I think it would be more likely that the key would be to something big and possibly dangerous. The four-plate door? The doors of stone? The Lockless door? Something along those lines.

[thistlepong]

I know what he says but that doesn't mean it's true and if it is Remmen could be another name for Kvothe. He's got a lot of them remember.

...

Rothfuss has already set up that time moves faster in the fae world than Kvothe's world so it wouldn't be hard for him to have an adult son and still be in his 20s.

If it were a FAQ question the answer would have to no, followed by the quote with a see also: theory bit. That bit would be full of conjecture of exactly the sort you put forth. It's possible. It's interesting. There's certainly an implied connection to the Lady of Twilight, but iirc it's Dedan who calls her that in preamble to his story. The trouble is beyond it solving the wtf of Kvothe and Bast there's nothing else to actually support it.

In answer to your initial question, though: Yes, I'd bet a solid gold mark 30% of readers think that.

[thistlepong]

According to the stories Taborlin the Great knew the names of all things, including locks. In one of the stories he strikes a chest and says "Edro" and it opens. If you had a magical lock-breaking punch I doubt you'd have much use for a skeleton key. I think it would be more likely that the key would be to something big and possibly dangerous. The four-plate door? The doors of stone? The Lockless door? Something along those lines.

Well, wouldn't that mean he knew the names of all that stuff, too, and wouldn't need keys?

Maybe he just knows whatever the story requires but it got out of hand. I mean this in a good way. Take Superman. He initially had a few limited powers. Now you can easily answer this. Can Superman punch out time? Yep, and you can cite examples.

Here's what we know about Taborlin. He had a staff, sword, cloak, key, coin, amulet, and candle. He knew the names: wind, fire, stone, and lightning. Flames were tinged blue when he was around.

[Loslathdos]

According to the stories Taborlin the Great knew the names of all things, including locks. In one of the stories he strikes a chest and says "Edro" and it opens. If you had a magical lock-breaking punch I doubt you'd have much use for a skeleton key. I think it would be more likely that the key would be to something big and possibly dangerous. The four-plate door? The doors of stone? The Lockless door? Something along those lines.

Like what thistlepon said, when he sited the superman example, plus Kvothe says, that the coin, candle, and key were all useful tools but he preffered to the cloak. He did call it a tool, which emplies it was used more often then just a key for one door

[SingleMort]

This might sound a little odd but has anyone else noticed similarities between Kvothe and Rick from Casablanca?

Both own a bar

Both have lost their faith or will to fight for causes they used to believe in and have become cynical and isolationist (of course Kvothe seems to have lost a lot more than than)

Both fell in love with women who have a secret past and wilth whom they ultimately can't be together.

Both are outsiders in the community they live in

Both are forced to confront their past in a land being destroyed by war.

I know their not exactly the same but I raised the comparison because I seem to remember someone saying this world or story would continue in a follow up series (but I'm not sure)

So I was wondering if instead of Kvothe dying they'll be a 'welcome back to the fight ' ending where Kvothe regains his faith and his power

[two_by_two]

Ok, I'm still working on updating the list. But I also wanted to bring something up that I noticed.

I already mentioned the iron, copper (brass, really), and silver locks on Kvothe's lute case and wondered if that meant anything about his thrice-locked chest. Once again the three materials show up with tinkers.

They'll sell "some fabulous piece of magic" for an iron penny, copper penny, and silver penny (WMFc75). Is there a reason silver gets grouped with the other two materials?

Also, what's the significance of coins? Auri gives Kvothe a silver coin. And Taborlin's tools are a key, coin, and candle. Really, all of Taborlin's tools seem strange to me. A key will unlock one thing usually, pretty strange for such an important tool for someone whose apparently done so much (as a side-note, Auri says the key she gives Kvothe goes to the moon). I don't really know why a coin would be a good tool. And at first I thought, of course a candle would be a good tool for a namer. But then a friend pointed out that a namer shouldn't need a candle; it's sympathists who use candles. So why is the candle so important for Taborlin? I'm pretty sure we never hear about Taborlin using sympathy. Auri gives Kvothe a candle. And there is the candle in the Lackless rhymes.

Sorry if this post is a bit disjointed.

I would actually rather question why copper gets lumped with iron and silver, both of which are typical "magical" metals (see also: iron and fairies, silver and werewolves). That being said, in this universe, we know that iron is anathema to the Fae, and we strongly suspect that copper is anathema to naming, but we have no strong information on the properties of silver, if any.

Regarding coins, I would have to say that they are the foremost marker of civilization. In fact, we get a long spiel in NotW by young Kvothe about coinage to Abenthy, which I was going to copy here, but it's really quite long and I can't figure out how to put it under a spoiler. But basically, long story short, two thousand years ago, the folk soon to be known as the Cealdim settled down, became the most skilled miners and craftsmen in the world, and developed the first standardized currency. Ten iron drabs is a copper jot, ten jots is something (the story gets cut off, but I think we can assume it is a silver coin).

I think the reason the three go together (pragmatically speaking) is because they are the three metals used for common currency. Obviously gold is a biggie, but the common folk don't use gold on a day-to-day basis, and it would thus be rather unhelpful for a tinker to ask for a gold coin.

Regarding keys, it's important to remember there are multiple meanings to the word. Not just a tool to open a door, but a key can also be the crux of something, the turning point. Or it can be the mode of notes a song is in, or a trick to accomplishing a task.

On a similar subject, "taking the king's coin" means "joining the army." And it's really remarkable how often the word "coin" pops up in NotW (I don't have a searchable version of WMF yet). It's often associated with security (largely because of the Tarbean section).

A candle is light and heat, and it can also be very expensive (depending on the type of candle - simple tallow would be pretty cheap, but wax would be extremely costly). What's more, before clocks, you would keep track of time with a candle - they tend to burn at a relatively constant rate, so if marked evenly, they make a decent timekeeper. So that's something.

[thistlepong]

Gaston, he's stated on two separate occasions on video that Auri's not really important to the plot, just to Kvothe. I keep thinking of Luna Lovegood. I'll try to post the links later.

3-1-11

10-2-12

[red roggo]

Thistlepong- you asked the question "wait the Chandrian won?

Well yeah: why? Both the Chandrian and the Amyr are removing books, relics ,and songs from memory. The Chandrian are removing stories &songs that tell the story of Lanre turning. We know this because Denna's story tell of Lanre being tricked gets no attention from the Chandrian at all. On the other side are the Amyr. Why are they suppressing the stories,and songs? What are they hiding? It just does not add up. Unless they did something wrong that they want to hide. The one thing that comes to mind is they broke the rule of judging without seeing.Could they have judged Haliax and the others without seeing or having a witness? Worse for the Amyr would be judging without evidence and being wrong. That would explain the Amyr removing any and all books about the war. So maybe the Chandrian are trying to prove they are innocent.

What do we know about the Amyr? So far we know they scare the little girl from Trebon more than the Chandrian do. We also know that Kvorthe mentioning the Ciriadae(spelling) to Auri and she Alice in Wonderlands right down into her rabbit hole under the school . They must be downright vicious for both of them to act that way.

[Loslathdos]

I would actually rather question why copper gets lumped with iron and silver, both of which are typical "magical" metals (see also: iron and fairies, silver and werewolves). That being said, in this universe, we know that iron is anathema to the Fae, and we strongly suspect that copper is anathema to naming, but we have no strong information on the properties of silver, if any.

Regarding coins, I would have to say that they are the foremost marker of civilization. In fact, we get a long spiel in NotW by young Kvothe about coinage to Abenthy, which I was going to copy here, but it's really quite long and I can't figure out how to put it under a spoiler. But basically, long story short, two thousand years ago, the folk soon to be known as the Cealdim settled down, became the most skilled miners and craftsmen in the world, and developed the first standardized currency. Ten iron drabs is a copper jot, ten jots is something (the story gets cut off, but I think we can assume it is a silver coin).

I believe 10 jots is a silver talent,

[SingleMort]

Thistlepong- you asked the question "wait the Chandrian won?

Rte

Well yeah: why? Both the Chandrian and the Amyr are removing books, relics ,and songs from memory. The Chandrian are removing stories &songs that tell the story of Lanre turning. We know this because Denna's story tell of Lanre being tricked gets no attention from the Chandrian at all. On the other side are the Amyr. Why are they suppressing the stories,and songs? What are they hiding? It just does not add up. Unless they did something wrong that they want to hide. The one thing that comes to mind is they broke the rule of judging without seeing.Could they have judged Haliax and the others without seeing or having a witness? Worse for the Amyr would be judging without evidence and being wrong. That would explain the Amyr removing any and all books about the war. So maybe the Chandrian are trying to prove they are innocent.

What do we know about the Amyr? So far we know they scare the little girl from Trebon more than the Chandrian do. We also know that Kvorthe mentioning the Ciriadae(spelling) to Auri and she Alice in Wonderlands right down into her rabbit hole under the school . They must be downright vicious for both of them to act that way.

I could see the Amyr trying to cover up their past evil doings but I'm not sure about the Chandrian being framed for someone else's crimes. For starters who would be in a position to do that.

Second Lanre destroys Myr T in both Kvothe and Denna version of the story. I know that he's portrayed as a tragic hero in the latter but isn't that what got him turned into Haliax? He wasn't framed. If the Chandrian were wronged then surely it would happen before them becoming the Chandrian because well look what they did to Kvothe's troop and all they did was write a song. Imagine what they would do to someone who was actually acting against them.

[Nisheeth]

I would actually rather question why copper gets lumped with iron and silver, both of which are typical "magical" metals (see also: iron and fairies, silver and werewolves). That being said, in this universe, we know that iron is anathema to the Fae, and we strongly suspect that copper is anathema to naming, but we have no strong information on the properties of silver, if any.

Regarding coins, I would have to say that they are the foremost marker of civilization. In fact, we get a long spiel in NotW by young Kvothe about coinage to Abenthy, which I was going to copy here, but it's really quite long and I can't figure out how to put it under a spoiler. But basically, long story short, two thousand years ago, the folk soon to be known as the Cealdim settled down, became the most skilled miners and craftsmen in the world, and developed the first standardized currency. Ten iron drabs is a copper jot, ten jots is something (the story gets cut off, but I think we can assume it is a silver coin).

I think the reason the three go together (pragmatically speaking) is because they are the three metals used for common currency. Obviously gold is a biggie, but the common folk don't use gold on a day-to-day basis, and it would thus be rather unhelpful for a tinker to ask for a gold coin.

Regarding keys, it's important to remember there are multiple meanings to the word. Not just a tool to open a door, but a key can also be the crux of something, the turning point. Or it can be the mode of notes a song is in, or a trick to accomplishing a task.

On a similar subject, "taking the king's coin" means "joining the army." And it's really remarkable how often the word "coin" pops up in NotW (I don't have a searchable version of WMF yet). It's often associated with security (largely because of the Tarbean section).

A candle is light and heat, and it can also be very expensive (depending on the type of candle - simple tallow would be pretty cheap, but wax would be extremely costly). What's more, before clocks, you would keep track of time with a candle - they tend to burn at a relatively constant rate, so if marked evenly, they make a decent timekeeper. So that's something.

Coin comes up about 66 times in WMF.

About that part on counage:

severity. “Roughly two thousand years ago. The nomadic folk who roamed the foothills around the Shalda Mountains were brought together under one chieftain.” “What was his name?” “Heldred. His sons were Heldim and Heldar. Would you like his entire lineage, or should I get to the point?” I glowered at him. “Sorry, sir.” Ben sat up straight in his seat and assumed such an aspect of rapt attention that we both broke into grins. I started again. “Heldred eventually controlled the foothills around the Shalda. This meant that he controlled the mountains themselves. They started to plant crops, their nomadic lifestyle was abandoned, and they slowly began to-” “Get to the point?” Abenthy asked. He tossed the drabs onto the table in front of me. I ignored him as best I could. “They controlled the only plentiful and easily accessible source of metal for a great distance and soon they were the most skilled workers of those metals as well. They exploited this advantage and gained a great deal of wealth and power. “Until this point barter was the most common method of trade. Some larger cities coined their own currency, but outside those cities the money was only worth the weight of the metal. Bars of metal were better for bartering, but full bars of metal were inconvenient to carry.” Ben gave me his best bored-student face. The effect was only slightly inhibited by the fact that he had burned his eyebrows off again about two days ago. “You’re not going to go into the merits of representational currency, are you?” I took a deep breath and resolved not to pester Ben so much when he was lecturing me. “The no-longer-nomads, called the Cealdim by now, were the first to establish a standardized currency. By cutting one of these smaller bars into five pieces you get five drabs.” I began to piece two rows of five drabs each together to illustrate my point. They resembled little ingots of metal. “Ten drabs are the same as a copper jot; ten jots-”

Patrick Rothfuss. The Name of the Wind (Kindle Locations 1616-1634). Daw Books.

About the copper thing, Rothfuss stated that they are useful against Namers. So in this world, copper would be magical as well.

I could see the Amyr trying to cover up their past evil doings but I'm not sure about the Chandrian being framed for someone else's crimes. For starters who would be in a position to do that.

Second Lanre destroys Myr T in both Kvothe and Denna version of the story. I know that he's portrayed as a tragic hero in the latter but isn't that what got him turned into Haliax? He wasn't framed. If the Chandrian were wronged then surely it would happen before them becoming the Chandrian because well look what they did to Kvothe's troop and all they did was write a song. Imagine what they would do to someone who was actually acting against them.

I think that the Chandrian and the Amyr are legacies of the war (the one in which Lanre fought). And that neither of them won.

The Amyr are doing nothing different from the Chandrian. Destroying information about themselves while remaining in the shadows. And we don't know for sure whether the Chandrian killed the troupe or not. Cthaeh did imply that was the case, but he isn't very trustworthy. The Chandrian could have been framed for that one instance, maybe by the Amyr? That too has been discussed extensively in the previous theads.

[SingleMort]

If the Chandrian didn't kill the troupe then why were they there? Why did cinder threaten to kill Kvothe? What's with the line 'Somebody's parents have been singing entirely the wrong kind of songs '? They weren't writing a song about the Amyr. Unless you're saying that Lanre is an Amyr not one of the Chandrian.

[jumbles]

Wow. Thanks for all the responses to my questions about the locks, coins, and Taborlin's tools. Didn't expect that many. As far as tinkers and coins go, I am inclined to believe that it just makes for a good sounding fairy tale, especially since the tinkers are receiving the coins and not giving them to the hero.

Also, I have updated the list and given it a bit of an overhaul. Let me know about any changes that should be made. I haven't forgotten about your other suggestions Gaston; I just haven't gotten around to them yet, and right now I think I may work on extending the "Elodin is Manet" part of the list. Completed that last part.

[thistlepong]

If the Chandrian didn't kill the troupe then why were they there? Why did cinder threaten to kill Kvothe? What's with the line 'Somebody's parents have been singing entirely the wrong kind of songs '? They weren't writing a song about the Amyr. Unless you're saying that Lanre is an Amyr not one of the Chandrian.

If the Chandrian didn't kill the troupe then why were they there?

If I were aware that folks were going around making it look like I was up to shenanigans, I'd be compelled to investigate those shenanigans. If I were functionally immortal and ridiculously powerful, i.e. relatively unafraid, I'd make an effort to do so. Still, I reckon they're responsible for the troupe, given the lack of unfamiliar corpses and the blood on cinder's sword.

Why did cinder threaten to kill Kvothe?

No winky face on this one. Cinder did not threaten Kvothe's life. Nor did Haliax. This is a great example of a FAQ question.

On Cinder:

The one called Cinder sheathed his sword with the sound of a tree cracking under the weight of winter ice. Keeping his distance, he knelt.

No only does he put away his weapon, he also explicitly makes no threatening moves.

Regarding Haliax, folks seem to think this implies a kill order:

“You are approaching my displeasure. This one has done nothing. Send him to the soft and painless blanket of his sleep.” The cool voice caught slightly on the last word, as if it were difficult to say.

Haliax is sort of hyper-aware of the differences between forgetting, madness, sleep, and death. He notes Kvothe innocence and chooses sleep, not death. His voice catches so we'll take note. Moreover, Haliax reacts not to Cinder's dickery, nor his dalliance, but to his partial reveal of why Kvothe's parents are dead.

What's with the line 'Somebody's parents have been singing entirely the wrong kind of songs '? They weren't writing a song about the Amyr. Unless you're saying that Lanre is an Amyr not one of the Chandrian.

To be full on honest, we don't know the story Arliden's song told. And outside of a few of the more fanciful theories, neither does Kvothe.

“Sit and listen all, for I will sing

A story, wrought and forgotten in a time

Old and gone. A story of a man.

Proud Lanre, strong as the spring

Steel of the sword he had at ready hand.

Hear how he fought, fell, and rose again,

To fall again. Under shadow falling then.

Love felled him, love for native land,

And love of his wife Lyra, at whose calling

Some say he rose, through doors of death

To speak her name as his first reborn breath.”

It's half pointless to do analysis on a fragment, except that's what we're doing with the story as a whole and many of its parts already. So whatever. Let's look at the falling, for example. We can surmise with some confidence that the first fall refers to his death at the Blac of Drossen Tor, regarded in Skarpi's unashamedly pro-Selitos version as a good death for a good cause. We can guess that the second fall is under Selitos's curse. Here they're paired, not contrasted. Here either might attach to love, something not traditionally, y'know, bad. I shouldn't need to go on, really.

Of course the Chandrian research needs to be addressed. So does Arliden's lack of concern. One interpretation is that he's not concerned 'cause it's just a story, something denies the reality of. Another is that he doesn't fear their purpose as he understands it.

Keep in mind that this is a sort of summary of what has gone before in hundreds of comments here and elsewhere, nothing more. Most days I come down on the simple answer. Other days I don't. Cautious readers mark this as a point on which folks spin out of control assuming one thing, then another based on that, then still others. This is one of places where Rothfuss can turn the story without screwing the audience, but rather delighting them.

[thistlepong]

Thistlepong- you asked the question "wait the Chandrian won?

Well yeah: why? Both the Chandrian and the Amyr are removing books, relics ,and songs from memory. The Chandrian are removing stories &songs that tell the story of Lanre turning. We know this because Denna's story tell of Lanre being tricked gets no attention from the Chandrian at all. On the other side are the Amyr. Why are they suppressing the stories,and songs? What are they hiding? It just does not add up. Unless they did something wrong that they want to hide. The one thing that comes to mind is they broke the rule of judging without seeing.Could they have judged Haliax and the others without seeing or having a witness? Worse for the Amyr would be judging without evidence and being wrong. That would explain the Amyr removing any and all books about the war. So maybe the Chandrian are trying to prove they are innocent.

What do we know about the Amyr? So far we know they scare the little girl from Trebon more than the Chandrian do. We also know that Kvorthe mentioning the Ciriadae(spelling) to Auri and she Alice in Wonderlands right down into her rabbit hole under the school . They must be downright vicious for both of them to act that way.

The Amyr aren't bound by any witnessing rule. That's Tehlu&Pals. In fact, that was at the heart of Selitos's refusal. Even so, Selitos witnessed Lanre's offense.

It's also probably important to allow the text to bound some of our observations about the Amyr and the Seven.

So, like, we have strong corroboration for the Chandrian slaughtering Greyfallow's Men. And we have Cinder's, “Someone’s parents have been singing entirely the wrong sort of songs," to suggest a reason. We have a weaker, but still fairly substantial, link between them and the Mauthen massacre. And lo, there was an urn depicting them. And we have a triangulation theory in the text suggesting they're able to home in on certain repetitions of data.

Arliden was yakking about their names and signs, and the urn held their images and signs, and the Adem know their names and signs, but have a tradition limiting the speaking thereof. Therefore we can be fairly certain that their concern centers around their signs and possibly their names and images.

On the other hand the best candidate for Amyr is Viari, who actually travels around the world acquiring texts and returning them to a library notably lacking and concrete references to 700-1000 years of Amyr history. The Amyr's who project was to "confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian." So my guess would be that the lack of textual references would be their doing.