*Possible Spoilers* The North's Relationship with the Targaryens...Theory

[Rocket]

Flipping through chapters right now, haven't entirely begun a reread. For those who know, given GM's reading on a World of Ice and Fire, we now know a little more about the events surrounding the King Who Knelt. To me, the North's relationship with the throne has always seemed a bit different, and they have come off as a bit more independent than the other kingdoms. Most would just dismiss this as their distance from the other kingdoms, and different Gods and customs.

It occurred to me last night that maybe there is a bit more to this. I was reading through Game of Thrones and I went over the chapter which Robb is declared King of the North. The GreatJohn said an interesting thing when defending his position: it was something along the lines that they were married to the dragons, and no one else...

My theory is that this is actually true and there was some sort of deal cut between the two houses. I believe that Aegon actually had reason to fear the North. He also in all likelihood respected the Watch if other theories about the Targaryens in Westeros hold true. I believe there was possibly some sort of marriage proposal struck between the two houses resulting in Jahaerys and Alysanne. We dont who the wife of Aenys I was. I propose that it was a Northern Girl, through a marriage pact resulting from Torrhen bending the knee to Aegon.

While I certainly could go into more depth, I'd like to know what everyone thinks.

[TristanGreyjoy]

Flipping through chapters right now, haven't entirely begun a reread. For those who know, given GM's reading on a World of Ice and Fire, we now know a little more about the events surrounding the King Who Knelt. To me, the North's relationship with the throne has always seemed a bit different, and they have come off as a bit more independent than the other kingdoms. Most would just dismiss this as their distance from the other kingdoms, and different Gods and customs.

It occurred to me last night that maybe there is a bit more to this. I was reading through Game of Thrones and I went over the chapter which Robb is declared King of the North. The GreatJohn said an interesting thing when defending his position: it was something along the lines that they were married to the dragons, and no one else...

My theory is that this is actually true and there was some sort of deal cut between the two houses. I believe that Aegon actually had reason to fear the North. He also in all likelihood respected the Watch if other theories about the Targaryens in Westeros hold true. I believe there was possibly some sort of marriage proposal struck between the two houses resulting in Jahaerys and Alysanne. We dont who the wife of Aenys I was. I propose that it was a Northern Girl, through a marriage pact resulting from Torrhen bending the knee to Aegon.

While I certainly could go into more depth, I'd like to know what everyone thinks.

This is good, I definitely think that Torrhen made some kind of deal with the Targs before kneeling, since his brother already had plans to sneak into the Targ camp and kill the three dragons (with three weirwood arrows i believe), which seems like a pretty specific plan to kill the dragons and it may have worked (meaning Torrhen probably came out of the deal better off than the Targs in order for him to forfeit that well thought out plan)

[Scott Blackfyre]

I like this theory. The GreatJohn does say they bent the knee because of dragons. Maybe both camps realized a battle would end poorly for both sides. The Targaryans would probably win b/c of the dragons, but at a pyryphic cost. Much as with Dorne, it was easier to win them over through marriage, than outright conquest. I do agree that the Wall may have had some infumence as well. A queen did visit later and bestow more land upon the Watch and get a castle named in honor of her.

I see the North and the Targareyans respecting one another, especially militarily.

[KineticMD]

There was a theory on here a while back (mostly involving the semi-cataclysmic past of Hardhome) detailing that the whole reason Aegon invaded when he did was so he could win the North while they didn't have a Stark capable of skinchanging, which Torrhen Stark probably wasn't. The theory stated that Aegon was afraid of the Starks' warging powers because they could potentially warg his dragons and turn them against him. So he opted to make a pact with the Starks to bring them into his realm.

It made a lot of sense, even with a few reaches. Think about it. The Targaryens made Torrhen kneel, brought the North into the Seven Kingdoms, and then left them the hell alone. I think Aegon I was breathing a massive sigh of relief all the way home to Dragonstone.

[Son of the Smiling Knight]

As long as the Targs believe the same truth that the north does. That all Freys shall die

I see the North and the Targareyans respecting one another, especially militarily.

[Mace Cooterian]

First time post, currently in a re-read. A quick call out to those who have come up with some very compelling theories:especiially the R+L=J theory. Really good work!!!

Another congrat's to KeneticMD on the Stark's warging into Dragons. That makes a lot of sense to me and also gives credance to the notion about Bran being able to fly again. There have been other posts speculating about the three riders for the three Dragon's. I really did not have an opinion beyond Daenerys and had always dismissed the notion that Bran could be one. After KeneticMD's post; I'll no longer dismiss the notion of Bran being capable of riding a dragon.

[sumant30]

Warging into a dragon is a different thing altogether it is not warging into Hodor, it will need a very powerful warg to do that.

[conwaysuccess]

First time post, currently in a re-read. A quick call out to those who have come up with some very compelling theories:especiially the R+L=J theory. Really good work!!!

Another congrat's to KeneticMD on the Stark's warging into Dragons. That makes a lot of sense to me and also gives credance to the notion about Bran being able to fly again. There have been other posts speculating about the three riders for the three Dragon's. I really did not have an opinion beyond Daenerys and had always dismissed the notion that Bran could be one. After KeneticMD's post; I'll no longer dismiss the notion of Bran being capable of riding a dragon.

I'm completely on board here too! wow Love it. I feel very convinced!

[The Manticore Knight]

First time post, currently in a re-read. A quick call out to those who have come up with some very compelling theories:especiially the R+L=J theory. Really good work!!!

Another congrat's to KeneticMD on the Stark's warging into Dragons. That makes a lot of sense to me and also gives credance to the notion about Bran being able to fly again. There have been other posts speculating about the three riders for the three Dragon's. I really did not have an opinion beyond Daenerys and had always dismissed the notion that Bran could be one. After KeneticMD's post; I'll no longer dismiss the notion of Bran being capable of riding a dragon.

If R+L=J is true, then I believe Jon is a better candidate.

Edit: spelling

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Warging into a dragon is a different thing altogether it is not warging into Hodor, it will need a very powerful warg to do that.

A very powerful warg? Like every single Stark is? Not counting Bran the greenseer?

[ab aeterno]

A very nice theory. I like it. Welcome to the forum Rocket; and you, Mace Cooterian!

[evita mgfs]

Warging into a dragon is a different thing altogether it is not warging into Hodor, it will need a very powerful warg to do that.

:agree:

It will be Bran. It has been years since bio, but aren't dragons bird like, "bird-hipped" as opposed to "lizard hipped"? :drool:

[JP Dayne]

i dont think dragons can me warged simply because they're not animals.

they're magic, fire made flesh.

bran wont see himself flying on a dragon. on a bunch of ravens, at most.

[ab aeterno]

i dont think dragons can me warged simply because they're not animals.

they're magic, fire made flesh.

bran wont see himself flying on a dragon. on a bunch of ravens, at most.

If people can be warged, and trees can be warged (sort of,) why not dragons?

[Rocket]

Thank you all...here's the quote:

"My Lords!", he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renley Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take take the Lannisters too, I've had bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why should't we rule ourselves again?, It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Rob with the blade. "There sits the only kind I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"

Anyway, I initially thought that those 3 weirwood arrows were what scared the hell at of Aegon, but after reading this thread, it makes more sense that Torrhen must have spooked him with his ability to warg. The events surrounding this are a little hazy, and suspicious at that. When the books refer to the event of the King Who Knelt, they make Torrhen come off as a coward almost. I really think there's much more to it that we're going to find out, and that future themes in the books are going to draw from relationships and parallels between the Starks and the Targaryens. Like I said, I firmly believe that there was some sort of marriage pact that came from this. We don't know who the wife of Aenys I was. It wouldnt be so far-fetched to think this could have been a Stark. Queen Alysanne's venture North also could lend credence to this as well. Given what we know, her and Jaehaerys are the only Targaryen presence in the North throughout the series. This could be seen as a tribute to their mother's side.

[squnchyTHEconchy]

shiznit i love new theories like this!! :drool:

[armidil0]

There was a theory on here a while back (mostly involving the semi-cataclysmic past of Hardhome) detailing that the whole reason Aegon invaded when he did was so he could win the North while they didn't have a Stark capable of skinchanging, which Torrhen Stark probably wasn't. The theory stated that Aegon was afraid of the Starks' warging powers because they could potentially warg his dragons and turn them against him. So he opted to make a pact with the Starks to bring them into his realm.

It made a lot of sense, even with a few reaches. Think about it. The Targaryens made Torrhen kneel, brought the North into the Seven Kingdoms, and then left them the hell alone. I think Aegon I was breathing a massive sigh of relief all the way home to Dragonstone.

The only problem I have with that is how would they know that Torrhen wasn't a warg? Is there some kind of warg detector like the a Dragon ball detector from DBZ? I agree that the Targ might have feared the North, but I don't think they invaded specifically because they knew Torrhen couldn't warg, which he could have for all we know.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Hello, ASOIAF world, fist time poster here! I’ve been reading for a while and finally decided to join the myriad interesting conversations going on here. So, here it goes:

Rocket, I think the “marriage” the Greatjon mentioned in his speech was an alliance, rather than an actual marriage pact.

There is a lot made of characters’ hair. GRRM basically uses it as a paternity test - the whole reason behind the suspicions of both Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark about Robert’s children was the color of their hair. With that in mind, the basic description of a Targaryen always includes fair hair – in fact I think they all have silver hair. We haven’t heard of a single Targ with dark hair and I think that this would’ve been mentioned somewhere as something out of the ordinary. Neither have we heard (officially) of an instance of a Stark-Targaryen marriage (and offspring).

Now, I think that we’ve all heard the RLJ theory. So, if we use the hair color as genetic marker of a certain house (or the mixing of two houses), then only one of the two things can be true: either there has never been a marriage between a Stark and a Targaryen, or the RLJ theory is false. Of course, there is the third possibility – that the offspring of such marriages don’t always share that marker. Still, I think it’s probably one of the two.

On the matter of Aegon fearing the North. He was a wise conqueror, not a mindless destroyer. He showed that by letting the Lannisters rule the West even after they took up arms against him. As it was, after the Field of Fire, Torrhen had more to fear of Aegon than the other way around. If we can say one thing about the Stark lords it is that the only thing they put before their honor is the well-being of their people. So, maybe Torrhen realized that keeping a Crown was worth less than the thousands of Northmen that would die for it.

In fact,I think there are only two reasons that Aegon might fear The North – the warging and the Neck. However, with dragons being powerful magical beings, we have to assume that it would take a very powerful warg to control them – and we have no evidence to support the theory that Torrhen was one, let alone assess his strength. Plus, Aegon had to know beforehand that the Starks are wargs in order to feel threatened by it – and I’ve gotten the sense that this ability isn’t really trumpeted around.

The second reason – The North and Dorne are both protected by their geography. And even though the failed conquest of Dorne was after the Kneeling, I think that even at that point Aegon would be able to assess the situation and realize a peaceful solution would be better for him too. After all, he wanted to rule the Kingdoms – not leave them in ashes.

[all_Freys_must_die]

Hello, ASOIAF world, fist time poster here! I’ve been reading for a while and finally decided to join the myriad interesting conversations going on here. So, here it goes:

Rocket, I think the “marriage” the Greatjon mentioned in his speech was an alliance, rather than an actual marriage pact.

There is a lot made of characters’ hair. GRRM basically uses it as a paternity test - the whole reason behind the suspicions of both Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark about Robert’s children was the color of their hair. With that in mind, the basic description of a Targaryen always includes fair hair – in fact I think they all have silver hair. We haven’t heard of a single Targ with dark hair and I think that this would’ve been mentioned somewhere as something out of the ordinary. Neither have we heard (officially) of an instance of a Stark-Targaryen marriage (and offspring).

Now, I think that we’ve all heard the RLJ theory. So, if we use the hair color as genetic marker of a certain house (or the mixing of two houses), then only one of the two things can be true: either there has never been a marriage between a Stark and a Targaryen, or the RLJ theory is false. Of course, there is the third possibility – that the offspring of such marriages don’t always share that marker. Still, I think it’s probably one of the two.

But the suspicion only arose after all Robert's natural kids turned up with his dark curly hair (denoting a fairly strong recessive gene). Before that even Robert wasn't bothered by the fact that all his legitimate kids had blonde hair.

I think it was an actual marriage between the North and Targaryans....the Stark 'girls' genes just faded into the bottom of the pool or maybe resurfaced with Jon

[FacelessJohn]

I like this theory very much, but in the grand scheme of things( also if you believe R+L=J ) then all you really need is the great lord snow to hop on Rheagal. But i like digging deeper, good job.