Winter's Ghost Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 True, Dany has blame in not asking more questions. But how does one know to question when one has never heard anything to refute what one already knows? Jorah at least tells her that the smallfolk aren't hiding away in their hovels wishing for the return of dragons, but he doesn't do anything to refute her knowledge of the Rebellion which is pretty much the same as saying that what she knows is true. Barristan had plenty of opportunity but doesn't speak up until the 9th hour, and even then only tells her a tiny fraction before stopping and moving onto other 'safe' topics at her request.Well, I was more or less talking about the fact she knows nothing about Westeros in general, not just about the rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 True, Dany has blame in not asking more questions. But how does one know to question when one has never heard anything to refute what one already knows? Jorah at least tells her that the smallfolk aren't hiding away in their hovels wishing for the return of dragons, but he doesn't do anything to refute her knowledge of the Rebellion which is pretty much the same as saying that what she knows is true. Barristan had plenty of opportunity but doesn't speak up until the 9th hour, and even then only tells her a tiny fraction before stopping and moving onto other 'safe' topics at her request.Well, it was a bit of a shock to her that her father's madness, which she was told was lie by the Usurper's dogs, was actually true. I think her lack of inquiry might be that a part of her probably doesn't want to know the rest of the story of Robert's Rebellion, or in short, the truth, because it might conflict with the romanticized version she grew up with that names the War of the Usurper as solely the blame of the Usurper and his dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headless Jeyne Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Excellent points about Jorah and Barristan having the opportunity (and yes, maybe even duty) to school Dany on real Westerosi/Targareyn history and not really taking advantage of it. See, I have this hope that Tyrion will be the one to show up and lay some truth on her. He seems like he has the balls and brains to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Excellent points about Jorah and Barristan having the opportunity (and yes, maybe even duty) to school Dany on real Westerosi/Targareyn history and not really taking advantage of it. See, I have this hope that Tyrion will be the one to show up and lay some truth on her. He seems like he has the balls and brains to do it.And then he'd probably be losing those balls and brains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headless Jeyne Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Unlikely. I think Tyrion's clever enough to avoid doing something that will get his balls chopped off. He would obviously have to gain her trust first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Well, I was more or less talking about the fact she knows nothing about Westeros in general, not just about the rebellion.It holds true about Westeros in general, not just the rebellion. It's just that this thread is specific to the Rebellion in that it asks about Dany's view on the Usurper's Dogs. She doesn't know what she doesn't know. Yes, she has a responsibility to ask, but one can hardly ask the 'right' questions when one doesn't even know what information one is missing, or even that one is missing information. Her advisors have a responsibility to educate her, that's why they are advisors. Well, it was a bit of a shock to her that her father's madness, which she was told was lie by the Usurper's dogs, was actually true. I think her lack of inquiry might be that a part of her probably doesn't want to know the rest of the story of Robert's Rebellion, or in short, the truth, because it might conflict with the romanticized version she grew up with that names the War of the Usurper as solely the blame of the Usurper and his dogs.Yes, I'm sure it was a shock. My initial point in a previous post was that she's unlucky in that the first person who actually offers factual information happens to be one of the most spineless people in the books. Excellent points about Jorah and Barristan having the opportunity (and yes, maybe even duty) to school Dany on real Westerosi/Targareyn history and not really taking advantage of it. See, I have this hope that Tyrion will be the one to show up and lay some truth on her. He seems like he has the balls and brains to do it.Tyrion pre-ADWD would certainly be better at educating Dany that Barristan was in Dance. The biggest problem is that he has his own motives and his own reasons to hate the Starks, Arryns, Tullys, Baratheons and Lannisters and can see him encouraging her faulty knowledge rather than correcting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I don't doubt Tyrion's clever, I doubt Dany's capacity to listen to any sort of critisizm without getting stabby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Well Dany so far isn't known for her intellectual prowess or scholarly qualities, so I have no doubt she really does not care who's who and just pop over with her three B17 Flying Fortress superweapons and BURN everyone who doesn't bend a knee fast enough to the Danyster."I am the blood of the dragon, why would I need to read a book?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Frankly, I think it is just a story gap. If it ever came up in conversation, she probably would consider them more of the Usurper's Dogs.As to the rest, remember she did grow up only hearing her brother Viserys' rather biased viewpoint of the world:- Rhaegar was a saint, a man in love not an abductor & rapist- Aerys II was a good king and they only called him mad to defame him- Mother Rhaella loved father, and he respected her- The Starks couldn't handle the awesomeness of Rhaegar & Lyanna together, and turned traitor- Robert Baratheon couldn't stand being shoved aside by a better man and turned traitor- The Arryns turned traitor because they couldn't handle daddy's lawful judgement- The Tullys turned traitor for political advantage- Elia and Dorne totally didn't mind Rhaegar exercising his right to enjoy younger & hotter female flesh as any male dragon should- Tywin Lannister was jealous of father being more awesome than him and betrayed him- Elia and Aegon and Rhaenys were killed because the Usurper's Dogs are all murdering scum- Jaime Lannister was just a backstabbing jerk-ass doing what his father secretly wanted- By the way, Dany, you killed mother by being born, you unworthy stupid girl. I hate you. Later I'll have you anyway, and be king.This is why Dany still has "issues" about Westerosi history.I think that's entirely right. Dany is highly intelligent, but is incapable of accepting anything other than her brother's version of events.I think it would be as hard for her to accept that her father was mad and evil, and that she was conceived by rape, as it is for the children of war criminals to accept the truth about their parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Well Dany so far isn't known for her intellectual prowess or scholarly qualities, so I have no doubt she really does not care who's who and just pop over with her three B17 Flying Fortress superweapons and BURN everyone who doesn't bend a knee fast enough to the Danyster."I am the blood of the dragon, why would I need to read a book?"It's more the case that she's in denial, rather than that she's stupid. Think how hard it was for Stalin's children to come to terms with the fact that their father was a mass-murderer.Dany is clearly very bright. She has no difficulty with reading, writing, arithmetic, or languages. She *wants* to remain in ignorance about really happened when her father was overthrown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The recollections are mainly brought about something present. Had Jorah been judged by a Tully or Arryn instead of Stark she'd have provided thoughts on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arland Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 BTW, have you considered a fact that the story we consider as true, is actually one sided and we are the ones who don't ask all the questions. We were spoon-fed for 4 books with rebells narrative, accept it as an ultimate truth and are getting angry that rebell's victims don't kiss rebbell's hands for being victimized.Only in ADwD we get perspective from someone who actually was on loyalist and was old enough to know what is going on.So Arys killed Starks... it was his judgment as a king for disobedience and betrayal, a threat to his son . Stannis burned people for less left and right (see Lord Sunglass), and I am not even talking about Tywin's kind of justice. (see Vargo Hoat). Rheghar ran off with Lyanna - I guess he is not the one who invented marriage by elopement. Arys was paranoid ? Guess what? His son secretly was planning to depose him. I am not justifying all those Targerian deeds, but when you look at it trough Westerosi eyes, it is not really that clear cut at all.Also , note that nobody besides Jaime knows about Arys attempt to burn King's Landing, if it was true at all and not Jaimy's post rationalization of his kingslaying, or his misinterpretation of Arys' intentions.Dany does asks questions and sometimes even very hard ones. She asks very clearly to hear the truth. But people give her ambiguous answers. Either it is because they are spineless or want to please her, or because, maybe the answers, are not as clear as we think they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 BTW, have you considered a fact that the story we consider as true, is actually one sided and we are the ones who don't ask all the questions. We were spoon-fed for 4 books with rebells narrative, accept it as an ultimate truth and are getting angry that rebell's victims don't kiss rebbell's hands for being victimized. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Dany is not the sharpest tool in the shed. As evidenced by thinking she can't be burned or get sick. And telling the green grace she won't harm the hostages no matter what, that was pretty stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheimhridh ag teacht Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 She's also convinced that Rhaegar LOVED Lyanna and Lyanna loved him...so consider how she feels about the Starks denying their love, and chasing her brother down for 'following his heart'.Yes, they're the usurper's dogs, but they're also the family, in her head, that denied her brother his happiness (and life).She's a young girl - as we're constantly reminded of - and hasn't had time to form many opinions on love, life, and battles...her own love for Drogo grew out of a fairly hairy situation (being sold to a man much older than you), and let's not even get into the Daario situation, so maybe she considers what the Starks did in denying Rhaegar to be just as bad as Robert meeting him on the Trident. She knows what it's like, now, to experience love and loss.That doesn't make her an idiot, it just means that she has plenty of things going on in her head at once about plenty of people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arland Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 She's also convinced that Rhaegar LOVED Lyanna and Lyanna loved himWhich would make Robert's insisting on marrying Lyanna by force of arms, almost rapist, and Starks trying to give Lyanna to Baratheons because of marriage contract inspite he will, very similar to slavers and her brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned's Epic Beard Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Which would make Robert's insisting on marrying Lyanna by force of arms, almost rapist, and Starks trying to give Lyanna to Baratheons because of marriage contract inspite he will, very similar to slavers and her brother.If she thinks like that then she is a complete idiot or mad like her brother and father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 If she thinks like that then she is a complete idiot or mad like her brother and father.I vote for #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Seriously? Now we have people claiming the targs were right? This is a new low. Rhaegar kidnapped a woman who was to be married, Brandon called him on it and Aerys had him his father and all their companions killed. He then called for Ned and Robert to be killed for no reason. It is also widely known that Aerys was mad. Unless you consider every single source of Information on the subject inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Exactly this. The bulk of what she knows about Westeros and her family comes from Viserys, who barely knew anything at all. The next Westerosi she becomes close with, Jorah, then spoon feeds her Stark hatred and doesn't tell her anything useful about the Rebellion. Barristan tries, but he's a pretty passive, cravenly type person and never tried an aggressive approach to educating Dany. He told her only what she wanted to hear, when she wanted to hear it.She knows Viserys was a wack job. She admits it many times to herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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