Daenerys and the Usurper's Other Dogs

[SeanF]

Chelstead took over from Lord Jon Connington.

None of the rebels knew about the wildfire until Aerys' death. It would have taken considerable time to produce sufficient stocks of wildfire, and to distribute them, so I imagine the plan was put into operation before the battle of The Trident.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So far I've heard Dany's advisors called "cravenly", and "spineless". lmao. If part of your reasoning involves Ser Barristan Selmy being either, you're doing it wrong.

Physically courageous, emotionally craven and spineless. Yes, that describes both Robert and Barristan.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

In reference to the original question, we should remember that Hoster Tully took a grave wound (from JonCon) at The Battle of the Bells. He presumably spent the rest of the war recovering at Riverrun, and didn't participate at the Trident or at King's Landing. Viserys may not have hated him as much as the others, and/or believed that some degree of revenge had already been inflicted on him.

The point about ignoring Jon Arryn is a valid one, but can probably be attributed to Viserys not only being mentally unstable, but also being an eight-year-old with an eight-year-old's attention span during the critical phase of history. Robert killed Rhaegar. Ned led the northern vanguard to King's Landing, and was Lyanna's brother. Tywin was the turncloak that murdered Elia and the kids. That would seem to be enough targets for a young Viserys to hate. Jon Arryn just didn't make it into the Big Three.

[jblair]

Viserys was going after the "Rock Stars of the Rebellion"; as said before, he was a little boy and Arryn and Tully lacked the press coverage that the Big Three got.

[Dimadick]

So, any thoughts as to why Dany has seemingly forgotten the Arryns and the Tullys? And, assuming she gets back to Westeros, any thoughts as to what her plans regarding the surviving Arryns and Tullys might be?

She has heard vivid descriptions of the Sack of King's Landing. A Sack which involved the leadership and armies of houses Lannister and Stark. Who entered the city on the same day despite a lack of communication between them. Neither the Arryns, nor the Tullys seem to have taken part in the event. So they didn't register as much in the memory of the Targaryen survivors,

[Nuncle Kraken]

Physically courageous, emotionally craven and spineless. Yes, that describes both Robert and Barristan.

Please explain.

[Dimadick]

It's more the case that she's in denial, rather than that she's stupid. Think how hard it was for Stalin's children to come to terms with the fact that their father was a mass-murderer.

Dany is clearly very bright. She has no difficulty with reading, writing, arithmetic, or languages. She *wants* to remain in ignorance about really happened when her father was overthrown.

This extends to re-examining her own actions, and the motivations behind them. Her disturbing mantra "If I look back, I am doomed", ..."If I look back I am lost" tends to prevent her from actually facing some ugly truths.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Please explain.

That's probably the wrong thread, if you wish a more detailed explanation you should search for an old one on Barristan or open a new one. Short explanation: Barristan is brave enough when someone threatens him with a sword, but in any instance of his live where he had to make a emotional or moral choice, he refused to act, he simply backed down. With Ashara, with bending the knee to Robert, with not following his threat against the murderers of Rhaegars children, with not dealing with Jaime either way, with bending the knee to Joffrey, with being dismissed by Joffrey, with searching for Dany, with not outing himself to her out of his own free will, with backing down from telling her the truth and a bunch of other situations.

[Arland]

Chelstead took over from Lord Jon Connington.

None of the rebels knew about the wildfire until Aerys' death. It would have taken considerable time to produce sufficient stocks of wildfire, and to distribute them, so I imagine the plan was put into operation before the battle of The Trident.

None of them knew about it even after Aerys' death. Jaime tells about it to Brienne in ASOS and she is completely surprised. Then she asks why he didn't tell it to Ned Stark and others and he says that as KIngsguard he swore to keep Aerys's secrets. Then he tells that he found all alchemists who knew about the orders and slew them so they will no try to carry on. The story get's confirmed by Tyrion finding cache of wildfire in the city (I think in some dangerous spot) and wandering how it has got there. It is quite clear that nobody but Jaime and now Brienne knows about it.

BTW if I remember correctly Jaime story it all happened already under Rossart so it should be after the battle of the Tridant.

[Chaircat Meow]

None of them knew about it even after Aerys' death. Jaime tells about it to Brienne in ASOS and she is completely surprised. Then she asks why he didn't tell it to Ned Stark and others and he says that as KIngsguard he swore to keep Aerys's secrets. Then he tells that he found all alchemists who knew about the orders and slew them so they will no try to carry on. The story get's confirmed by Tyrion finding cache of wildfire in the city (I think in some dangerous spot) and wandering how it has got there. It is quite clear that nobody but Jaime and now Brienne knows about it.

BTW if I remember correctly Jaime story it all happened already under Rossart so it should be after the battle of the Tridant.

Yea, you're right. I knew Ned didn't know. This is really important for Ned's view of Jaime's conduct in the aftermath of the Trident.

[Dimadick]

How exactly does she intend to rule Westeros when every major house is just another one of the "usurper's dogs"?

Not everyone. Thanks to Viserys she has a list of Houses to serve as allies. "Tyrell, Redwyne, Darry, Greyjoy, they have no more love for the Usurper than I do. The Dornishmen burn to avenge Elia and her children". The basic problem is that their lack of love for the Baratheons does not translate to any particular loyalty for the Targaryens. The Greyjoys in particular tend to oppose concentration of power at King's Landing. They would be unlikely to support a new regime that limits their pirating ambitions.

[Kosh Naranek]

Tyrion learned of a stash under the Dragon Pit - I think - perhaps it was the Maidenvault? I suppose they were too busy worrying about the upcoming battle to think gee where in the heck did this come from? (I think Tyrion just marks it up to somethings just getting lost in the mists of time.)

Were there 3 stashes? That means that the city could potentially be sitting on two more caches of wildfire! Ummm...Jamie needs to warn someone.

Maybe that is part of George's finale? They set all of King's Landing on fire as it is being swept over by an army of White Walkers and Wights. Burn baby burn!

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I have never thought of Ser Barristan in that light before. Interesting. I never took it as him being craven. Rather, he is a soldier that simply feels out of depth if asked to weigh in. But, now that you mention it, he never seems to have a firm opinion until he decides to get Lo whatever the king's name is. That course of action was at the urging of the Shavepate. hmmm....

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Trying to get back on topic ---- Westeros is not Meereen. She does not seem to have any misgivings about the societal structure. (That could change once she gets there.) Perhaps she could do what Aegon did and put in power who she wants? But, Aegon allowed many of the ruling houses to keep their lands and there was not personal dislike (that we are aware of) involved.

I think the North could give her fits. (That assumes the North is in any shape to fight once she arrives. The the RW and general fighting killed many members of the Northern houses and wiped out a lot of men of fighting age. The Others are on the move.) The North seems doggedly loyal to House Stark for the most part. I don't see them easily taking to a new overlord.

The Vale might prove troublesome. If both Sweetrobin and Harry snuff it, the other houses might rally around the Royces and fight.

I say the Tyrells are too deep in with the Lannisters. Tyrion may be able to subvert some of the damage to House Lannister if he wishes, but he does not seem so inclined. Therefore, the Tyrells and Lannisters may fall. The Tyrells were Targaryen loyalists before, but bedding down with Usurper Dog Lannister may bite them in the rear.

Baratheons - What more can she really do to them other than kill Stannis and Shireen? They have been dispossessed in large part and many of their loyalists have been as well. The Baratheons are in tatters.

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Aegon has landed and that spells more fighting. The whole place may just be a smoking husk by the end.

[Silverin]

Not everyone. Thanks to Viserys she has a list of Houses to serve as allies. "Tyrell, Redwyne, Darry, Greyjoy, they have no more love for the Usurper than I do. The Dornishmen burn to avenge Elia and her children". The basic problem is that their lack of love for the Baratheons does not translate to any particular loyalty for the Targaryens. The Greyjoys in particular tend to oppose concentration of power at King's Landing. They would be unlikely to support a new regime that limits their pirating ambitions.

But the Greyjoys do seem to want Dany on the Throne.

Though if she actually allies with them that would be just oil on the fire. She is already a rather polarising caracther.. If she would do that she would never escape the big damn hypocrat attribte, there is really no logical excuse you can come up with as why as an antislavery person she would ally with men who capture women and make them saltwives (basically they are the same as slavers). I really hope she does not go there. ANd neither will she use Dothraki pillagers, since the Dothraki do get their money and wealth from robbing others, capturing people and selling them o be slaves.

By the way she just shoot into her foot when it comes to the Dornishmen. The Tyrells are only loyal to themself. Left with two, Redwyne and Darry. Not too much. Not to mention those houses that has any loyalty left might join to Aegon.

I seriously have no idea how can Dany be so naive after all she went through that she thinks she shows up and people will welcome her with open arms, automaticly let her sit on the Throne and worship her, she will clean the land from those evil dogs, and everything will be unicorns and rainbows. Serously even Sansa is not that naive, I mean she did realise from the fact that people didn't really offer help to her, that she is basically alone. Dany wandered all in her childhood alone with her brother, and no one really tried to help her then. If that is not a huge clue how much they are waiting for her return I don't know what is.

[Dimadick]

We hear that Varys told Aerys the HH tourney was being used to allow Rhaegar to meet with the great lords, to drum up consent to do something about Aerys. Aerys acted to preempt this by going himself. So, for a while before the Brandon incident Aerys knew his lords were after him and was trying to nip the threat in the bud. We also know Rickard had southern ambitions and was constructing powerful alliances with the Tullys and Baratheons.

There are some problems with the idea that Harrenhal was supposed to be a meeting place for the great Lords. We know that three of them did attend the Tourney: Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Mace Tyrell. The latter two are mentioned in Meera Reed's story. Tywin Lannister was absent. Doran Martell, Rickard Stark, and Hoster Tully are not mentioned in connection to the Tourney. (I know that Meera mentions "a red snake" dancing with Ashara Dayne during the Tourney. But this is probably Oberyn Martell, not Doran.) Why would Dorne, the North, and the Riverlands remain unrepresented in a key meeting?

Also the Tourney would be a rather late point to curb the Stark-Tully-Baratheon alliance. The wedding of Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully was already appeoaching. And Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert. Though raising Jaime Lannister to the Kingsguard was an effective way to prevent a Lannister-Tully alliance. Jaime was the intended husband for Lysa Tully.

[Chaircat Meow]

There are some problems with the idea that Harrenhal was supposed to be a meeting place for the great Lords. We know that three of them did attend the Tourney: Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Mace Tyrell. The latter two are mentioned in Meera Reed's story. Tywin Lannister was absent. Doran Martell, Rickard Stark, and Hoster Tully are not mentioned in connection to the Tourney. (I know that Meera mentions "a red snake" dancing with Ashara Dayne during the Tourney. But this is probably Oberyn Martell, not Doran.) Why would Dorne, the North, and the Riverlands remain unrepresented in a key meeting?

Also the Tourney would be a rather late point to curb the Stark-Tully-Baratheon alliance. The wedding of Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully was already appeoaching. And Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert. Though raising Jaime Lannister to the Kingsguard was an effective way to prevent a Lannister-Tully alliance. Jaime was the intended husband for Lysa Tully.

Yea, I can't remember where the quote is. It was definitely a rumour Aerys was supposed to have heard, from Varys, and believed though.

Some people could have pulled out of course when Aerys announced he was going himself.

[Dimadick]

When was Chelstead Hand? Was he the last hand before Rossart, who was only hand for a couple of weeks? Cos Ned doesn't know about the wildfire did he (which I always thought a bit strange) so it seems like it could be something Aerys came up with as a last desperate piece of folly, not a long term contingency plan everyone knew of.

You really need to pay attention to Jaime Lannister's POV here. "His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself. Everything was done in the outmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army."... "My Sworn Brothers were all away."

This plan was conceived and organized prior to the Battle of the Trident. Rhaella, Rhaegar, and most of the Kingsguard had no idea. All that remained was for someone to signal the pyromancers to lit the fire. In the day of the Sack of King's Landing, Rossart was rushing towards a gate to give the signal when Jaime killed him. Jaime killed Aerys in part to prevent him from personally starting the fire. And in the days following the Sack, Jaime was apparently on a killing spree:

"Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well. Belis offered for gold, and Garigus wept for mercy."

Jaime himself killed and permanently silenced every person aware of the plot except himself.He is responsible for keeping Aerys' version of the Final Solution a secret. "The knights of the Kingsguard are sworn to keep the king's secrets. Would you have me break my oath?"

[Chaircat Meow]

You really need to pay attention to Jaime Lannister's POV here. "His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself. Everything was done in the outmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army."... "My Sworn Brothers were all away."

This plan was conceived and organized prior to the Battle of the Trident. Rhaella, Rhaegar, and most of the Kingsguard had no idea. All that remained was for someone to signal the pyromancers to lit the fire. In the day of the Sack of King's Landing, Rossart was rushing towards a gate to give the signal when Jaime killed him. Jaime killed Aerys in part to prevent him from personally starting the fire. And in the days following the Sack, Jaime was apparently on a killing spree:

"Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well. Belis offered for gold, and Garigus wept for mercy."

Jaime himself killed and permanently silenced every person aware of the plot except himself.He is responsible for keeping Aerys' version of the Final Solution a secret. "The knights of the Kingsguard are sworn to keep the king's secrets. Would you have me break my oath?"

Thanks for the clarification. :) Jaime isn't one of my favourites and it's been a while since I re-read his POVs.

[Erudain]

Unlikely. I think Tyrion's clever enough to avoid doing something that will get his balls chopped off. He would obviously have to gain her trust first.

Of course....if Ned is responsable for Elia's children, I cannot imagine how much Danny will rage at a guy who was a little kid back then. He actually went and smashed Aegons head against a wall and should be held responsible for all the deeds his father, Loch and the Mountain did in KL that day

[Silverin]

Of course....if Ned is responsable for Elia's children, I cannot imagine how much Danny will rage at a guy who was a little kid back then. He actually went and smashed Aegons head against a wall and should be held responsible for all the deeds his father, Loch and the Mountain did in KL that day

Not to mention Dany calls somewhere Joff an Usurper as well. Seems like she thinks it is hereditary.

By the way Dany does not refer to the Lannisters, Baratheons and Starks as humans. She refes to them as dogs. Robert did the same towards the Targs, he didn't see them as human. A lot of times in hate speaches the speaker refers to those group of people who he hates as animals, not as humans (dogs, worms, rats etc....), making sure to justify that when dealing with them the usual moral restrictions (don't kill etc..) don't work since they are not human. So every time Dany refers to them as if they were animals I cginge inside.

[Kosh Naranek]

Not to mention Dany calls somewhere Joff an Usurper as well. Seems like she thinks it is hereditary.

By the way Dany does not refer to the Lannisters, Baratheons and Starks as humans. She refes to them as dogs. Robert did the same towards the Targs, he didn't see them as human. A lot of times in hate speaches the speaker refers to those group of people who he hates as animals, not as humans (dogs, worms, rats etc....), making sure to justify that when dealing with them the usual moral restrictions (don't kill etc..) don't work since they are not human. So every time Dany refers to them as if they were animals I cginge inside.

A most excellent point, I wish I could like it. Failing that - :agree: .