Sexuality in ASoIaF

[Elaena Targaryen]

I would like explore the sexuality themes in ASoIaF and the effects for the storylines, the characters and the reader. I think gender themes could be an important connection with this discussion. Also we all know there are many feminist issues to discuss regarding sexuality in ASoIaF so please address anything you want. If there is anything I’ve missed in the OP feel free to discuss it

First, I personally hope to see an asexual character and a lesbian character, while I can see a few candidates for asexuality (whether their heteroromantic, homoromantic, aromantic, etc.) it’s more limited with lesbians so any thoughts on either and do you think GRRM will explore them? I don’t think he’s obligated but I would like it. There are some (only a few really, lol) taboos that have not been covered as well, like orgies or male masturbation, so is there anything you would like included? Are there any sexual issues with morality, equality or taboos that you would like to discuss?

(edit: Lady Lea has pointed out that there has been atleast one instance of male masturbation so I wanted to correct this info)

Next, I wonder who will/could develop in what way including younger characters and do you think Martin will have any surprises here? Like the Blackfish or I’ve seen a poster wonder if Martin will flip our expectations with Sansa and Arya. Something else I’ve noticed on the board is a general acceptance regarding incest with Jaime and Cersei, or Jon and Dany and maybe even the Targaryens, but if a poster ships Jon and Arya the consensus seems negative and I wonder why?

Finally, do you think that, however unpleasant for whichever reason, that each sexual incident or reference seems to keep with that particular character/s and/or situation at that time? Which sex scenes, or scenes of a sexual nature, do you feel were of import for the character and/or the plot, or just insight for the reader? Are there any that you feel where unnecessary?

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm pleased to see this topic. I had privately conversed with Associate Maester, who has excellent input so I hope to see her chime in here.

I have about a billion comments to make, but I'll start with just a few regarding incest.

Something else I’ve noticed on the board is a general acceptance regarding incest with Jaime and Cersei, or Jon and Dany and maybe even the Targaryens, but if a poster ships Jon and Arya the consensus seems negative and I wonder why?

This is something I've wonder as well. I'm not morally opposed to incest but I do find myself cringing at the idea of a Jon/Stark union for some reason. The cringing isn't just because I think it's a fanciful idea, but that the incestuous nature is disturbing. I think what it comes down to is that the incest taboo is so culturally ingrained that it's hard to get past it. The first characters we get to know intimately are the Starks as they had all but two POVs in AGOT. I think because of this, they became the 'good guys', the family used as a model for all other families. The other two POV's, Dany and Tyrion, have this feel of being inserted into our lovely Stark family as an 'other', something different and uncomfortable. Their family practices just didn't coincide with our views of the Starks.

Basically what I'm saying is that as a reader, I easily identified heavily with the Starks simply because they were THE family of the first book. It's like I became part of their family while reading. While I'm not morally opposed to incest nor do I find myself uncomfortable with it when it comes to other people, I am opposed to it on a personal level. I have no desire to participate in the practice with my family, which sort of translates to no desire to see the family I've become closest to in ASOIAF participate in the practice. Does that make sense?

Jon and Dany may technically be related, but it's easier to identify with Jon as a Stark rather than as a Targaryen. Targ is still an 'other'. Now that I'm writing this, I have to wonder if GRRM has some big plan to challenge reader acceptance of conventional taboos by pairing a Stark with a Stark at the end.

Finally, do you think that, however unpleasant for whichever reason, that each sexual incident or reference seems to keep with that particular character/s and/or situation at that time? Which sex scenes, or scenes of a sexual nature, do you feel were of import for the character and/or the plot, or just insight for the reader? Are there any that you feel where unnecessary?

Ok, I know that I said I was only going to comment on the incest question for now, but I have a quick comment on this one. In short, no, I don't think that any were unnecessary. I think sexuality -in any way it's presented, whether violent or loving - is a realistic and major part of how identity is shaped.

[Florina Laufeyson]

About the incestuous acceptance thing. Its an interesting one. But i think regarding the time period Westeros is based on (i dunno around 1100 AD or some junk in real life time?) it wasnt unheard of to marry an extended family member to keep up bloodlines. In fact, it was relatively common. The Jaime/Cersei relationship is kinda squicky mainly because of the fact they are twins. But after a while, i just kinda didnt think about that and took it as a part of the story.

I dont like the Jon/Dany ship because its like Ships Pass In The Night. (The whole LETS SHIP PEOPLE WHO NEVER MET BEFORE! thing) And it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me. (When i ship, i ship things that are plausible.) Hell, at first i thought that a crack pairing. With the Jon/Arya ship ive actually seen around, it feels off because while they may not be brother and sister in reality, they believe each other to be and have a more healthy sibling like relationship than Jaime and Cersei. So its off putting a bit.

I have no desire to participate in the practice with my family, which sort of translates to no desire to see the family I've become closest to in ASOIAF participate in the practice. Does that make sense?

Totes makes sense cuz i feel the same way. Its why i like the idea of Jon/Val or Bran/Meera because they wouldnt be marrying within the family that is so much like my own.

Finally, do you think that, however unpleasant for whichever reason, that each sexual incident or reference seems to keep with that particular character/s and/or situation at that time? Which sex scenes, or scenes of a sexual nature, do you feel were of import for the character and/or the plot, or just insight for the reader? Are there any that you feel where unnecessary?

I found the Jaime and Cersei bits to be very important to the plot overall. So much of the central plot surrounds it and their childrens' identities, that its necessary for them to be shown having sexual encounters. If we didnt see any of that, perhaps we would be all "Well what if they really arent doing it and those are Robert's real kids?" etc. Despite how much i didnt like it, Tyrion's misadventures with Shae were pretty necessary to establish just what sort of relationship they had. Dany's deal with Drogo was character development for the both of them. To show what kind of marriage they had.

Jon's encounters with Ygritte are also necessary to show that Jon isnt exactly ironclad with his "no boffing" vow and to help him grow. He bonded with Ygritte and they loved each other. Arianne and Arys Oakheart was necessary to show to what extent he was willing to go for his Dornish princess hes come to love. Enough to toss out his vows.

The ones i felt were unnecessary were like Asha and Qarl the Maid. Yeah it was a bit of an insight to Asha's character but it seemed pretty superfluous. Theon and the captain's daughter was even more unnecessary.

[brashcandy]

Nice topic Elaena!

Next, I wonder who will/could develop in what way including younger characters and do you think Martin will have any surprises here? Like the Blackfish or I’ve seen a poster wonder if Martin will flip our expectations with Sansa and Arya. Something else I’ve noticed on the board is a general acceptance regarding incest with Jaime and Cersei, or Jon and Dany and maybe even the Targaryens, but if a poster ships Jon and Arya the consensus seems negative and I wonder why?

I don't think we're going to see a "flip" so much, as we might just witness Martin continuing to delve deeper into these issues. In ASOS and AFFC we see Sansa beginning to have sexual dreams and thoughts, and it reflects her development into womanhood. Arya has been exposed to this reality already, particularly in Braavos, but she hasn't started to explore her own sexuality and desires. I think with the Stark family, Martin plays it fairly straight (excuse the pun), but doesn't shy away from showing how sex and intimacy complicates the lives of his protagonists.

Finally, do you think that, however unpleasant for whichever reason, that each sexual incident or reference seems to keep with that particular character/s and/or situation at that time? Which sex scenes, or scenes of a sexual nature, do you feel were of import for the character and/or the plot, or just insight for the reader? Are there any that you feel where unnecessary?

On this, I agree with Dr. Pepper. Most have been important in some manner, although some could be considered fairly gratuitous. But how characters respond to intimacy and/or seek it for themselves does tell us a lot about them and their relationships with others.

[OberynBlackfyre]

ok for one, I would like to re-name this post "50 shades of Ice and Fire" (aren't I clever, har har)

then secondly, like to say thanks for posting something this interesting and hope that mods let us keep this thread!!

I think the sexuality in the books is very in the readers faces for a reason. GRRM who is agnostic, was part of anti war movements in his youth, and has hands on knowledge of what goes on in hollywood I feel has so much knowledge on different types of sexual experiences that he shares. Sex for nothing but love, sex for the hell of it, over the top sex, sex to prove a point or for gain, it is really showing the way a certain populous of people would lead sexual lives. The incest between Jaime and Cersei doesn't bother me as much as it would if they were only doing it for the sake of pure blood, rather than actual loving each other. But they do, they (in the beginning), love each other deeply. In a way I find this more acceptable than the Targs.

As for the other types of sex, I think it is showing in a very feminist way, the type of control that woman had in an age like this. Sure they were thought of as property and trades, yet in the end, when their lord wanted a wank, who said yes or no? When they need and wanted favor, as Cersei said, "The most powerful weapon is between your legs".

I use Cersei so much because I feel she has had the most explicit sexual life within the books. And also that she herself may be bisexual.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Cersei's scene with Lady Merryweather was an interesting one. It wasnt so much "hey lets have two ladies going at it!" as much as it was insight to Cersei's character and how she perceives herself. Dominating another woman in particular. Also note that Cersei did not really enjoy the event which tells me that shes not really full on bisexual.

[Lady Lea]

Very interesting OP! I'm looking forward to this discussion.

First, I personally hope to see an asexual character and a lesbian character, while I can see a few candidates for asexuality (whether their heteroromantic, homoromantic, aromantic, etc.) it’s more limited with lesbians so any thoughts on either and do you think GRRM will explore them? I don’t think he’s obligated but I would like it. There are some (only a few really, lol) taboos that have not been covered as well, like orgies or male masturbation, so is there anything you would like included? Are there any sexual issues with morality, equality or taboos that you would like to discuss?

You know, I've seen some people make a case for Stannis being asexual. I don't know much about asexuality, but I think it's fairly clear that he does have a sexual relationship with Melisandre.

About lesbians, in this thread there was much discussion on this. I find it very odd that we have two f/f sex scenes and no lesbians (both scenes end with the woman realising that she can only be satisfied by a penis), and we have at least three confirmed gay men and no m/m sex scenes.

Just a note: male masturbation is present in the books. Off the top of my head I can think of a Tyrion chapter where he's locked during his trial.

As for the other types of sex, I think it is showing in a very feminist way, the type of control that woman had in an age like this. Sure they were thought of as property and trades, yet in the end, when their lord wanted a wank, who said yes or no? When they need and wanted favor, as Cersei said, "The most powerful weapon is between your legs".

Actually I think what GRRM wants to show is exactly how inferior a woman's position was in this society and in the institution of marriage. In the end, if the lord wants sex, it's his decision. When Robert wanted to have sex with Cersei, he did. When Ramsay wanted to have sex with Jeyne, he did. If Tyrion wanted to have sex with Sansa, he would have. The woman had no power. Cersei talks about getting power through her sexuality but in the end the scenes where she sleeps with that Kettleblack guy are degrading and actually show that she had no control over the situation.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Very interesting OP! I'm looking forward to this discussion.

You know, I've seen some people make a case for Stannis being asexual. I don't know much about asexuality, but I think it's fairly clear that he does have a sexual relationship with Melisandre.

About lesbians, in this thread there was much discussion on this. I find it very odd that we have two f/f sex scenes and no lesbians (both scenes end with the woman realising that she can only be satisfied by a penis), and we have at least three confirmed gay men and no m/m sex scenes.

Just a note: male masturbation is present in the books. Off the top of my head I can think of a Tyrion chapter where he's locked during his trial.

Actually I think what GRRM wants to show is exactly how inferior a woman's position was in this society and in the institution of marriage. In the end, if the lord wants sex, it's his decision. When Robert wanted to have sex with Cersei, he did. When Ramsay wanted to have sex with Jeyne, he did. If Tyrion wanted to have sex with Sansa, he would have. The woman had no power. Cersei talks about getting power through her sexuality but in the end the scenes where she sleeps with that Kettleblack guy are degrading and actually show that she had no control over the situation.

I think Cersei and Kettleback was way more Cersei's fault for letting things get completely out of control. Ramsay, is a monster and NO woman would be able to tell him no, even now. Tyrion and Sansa were married, just like Robert and Cersei. I never said women were all powerful, but stating that women did not have power in the books is complete folly. Sure Robert had sex with Cersei, because Cersei knew it was she needed to do, but proceeded to undermine him and have NONE of his kids

[The Mother of Dragons]

Next, I wonder who will/could develop in what way including younger characters and do you think Martin will have any surprises here? Like the Blackfish or I’ve seen a poster wonder if Martin will flip our expectations with Sansa and Arya. Something else I’ve noticed on the board is a general acceptance regarding incest with Jaime and Cersei, or Jon and Dany and maybe even the Targaryens, but if a poster ships Jon and Arya the consensus seems negative and I wonder why?

Finally, do you think that, however unpleasant for whichever reason, that each sexual incident or reference seems to keep with that particular character/s and/or situation at that time? Which sex scenes, or scenes of a sexual nature, do you feel were of import for the character and/or the plot, or just insight for the reader? Are there any that you feel where unnecessary?

No matter how unpleasant, sexual encounters are a form of characterization. The way the characters embrace their situation or merely feign interest effects how they change in terms of maturity. Daenerys' first few "rides" with Drogo were unpleasant because it was supposed to be a whetstone for her character. Cersei's slumber party in the Myrish Swamp made her realize she has the ambition of a man but appreciates her woman's body, seeing that she prefers to be the woman in a relationship. Jaime and Cersei's scenes never exactly grossed me out in any way, but they were a bit much sometimes. Jaime refused to wait when he found out Cersei was having her period? Too much, but it did show his devotion to her. I think Sam and Gilly was almost unnecessary, only because I thought of it like "The lame guy gets the wild girl."

For the characters yet to have sex, I think Bran is on the path to asexuality, but is sort of forced to be. He may be only around eleven by the time of A Dance with Dragons, but don't most boys start to realize what they like around then? I feel like this applies even more to A Song of Ice and Fire, since it seems children have less time to be children and have to "grow up" at a younger age. Sansa may have some vile seeds she kept from Cersei in the back of her mind, and if Sansa continues developing the way she is, I can see her using Cersei's favorite weapon ("...the best one's between your legs. Learn how to use it"). Arya seems to be the biggest mystery of all the Stark children. She has never actually thought of someone as handsome, only noted that Jeyne Poole or Sansa thought so. The Gendry-Arya chemistry is there but it doesn't ever develop enough. In A Feast for Crows, Arya notices her budding breasts and dismisses her thoughts about them immediately. Arya is almost the same age as Sansa was when she flowered. Could this change Arya's character in a similar way to Sansa?

[Lady Lea]

I think Cersei and Kettleback was way more Cersei's fault for letting things get completely out of control. Ramsay, is a monster and NO woman would be able to tell him no, even now. Tyrion and Sansa were married, just like Robert and Cersei. I never said women were all powerful, but stating that women did not have power in the books is complete folly. Sure Robert had sex with Cersei, because Cersei knew it was she needed to do, but proceeded to undermine him and have NONE of his kids

Well, exactly, Tyrion and Sansa were married, and so were Robert and Cersei. And that's why they wouldn't be able to say no if their husbands wanted them.

I didn't say women did not have any power in the books, by the way. I said women had no power to say no to their husbands in the marriage bed. Which they didn't, be they married to Ramsay or any other guy.

[Gertrude]

On the subject of incest, I think Stark on Stark is unacceptable to us because it would be unacceptable to them. Targs are a special case - they are other. The Lannisters are shown to be 'wrong' in what they are doing. Not only is it taboo for the general populace of Westeros, we are shown immediately that Jaime and Cersei are not good people, thus reinforcing the association of incest=bad.

When I started reading fan sites or reviews on-line, I was surprised to see so many people have a negative reaction to the sex scenes. Complaints of too graphic or too many. I had to think about it, and then realized that, yes, they are right that it's everywhere. The reason I didn't think too much about it while reading it was that it seemed natural to me. It's something people do, and it all seemed to illustrate whatever point he was trying to illustrate at the time.

I'm going to say something that will get a reaction, but I'm wondering if the people bothered by the amount or graphic nature of the sex scenes are completely comfortable with sex in general? I don't mean comfortable as in, sex, woo hoo! But really and truly comfortable with the concept and not blinded by the titillation of it anymore. Crap, this is coming out so badly, but look - I have been sexually active for a long time now and sex is just another part of my life. It's not 'special'. (again, this is coming out badly - yes, it's super fun and a prefered way to spend the evening, but it's just something you do because it's a normal part of adult life) is this making any sense or am I just going off on a tangent that is completely off base?

Last thing - my favorite 'sex' scene in the book is Tyrion and Sansa. it was just heartbreaking for both of them and the nudity upped the tension wondering how that night was going to end.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

Finally, do you think that, however unpleasant for whichever reason, that each sexual incident or reference seems to keep with that particular character/s and/or situation at that time? Which sex scenes, or scenes of a sexual nature, do you feel were of import for the character and/or the plot, or just insight for the reader? Are there any that you feel where unnecessary?

I think Sam and Gilly was almost unnecessary, only because I thought of it like "The lame guy gets the wild girl."

Agree. Fat Pink Mast was totally unnecessary (and imo kind of an unrealistic cliche, I mean c'mon, 'fat nerd loses virginity to hot girl'). Is a girl like Gilly (especially considering the molestation she suffered) really going to relentlessly, forcefully pursue sex with ol' fat, nervous Samwell?

[Florina Laufeyson]

She has never actually thought of someone as handsome

Arya does remark on characters as handsome a few times. Gendry, she finds very strongly built. Jaqen, she repeatedly says hes handsome in her thoughts. The handsome acolyte in the House of the Black and White...yeah she notices. Does she feel anything about it? Remains to be seen. I think its her age that makes her not really think on that much.

Could this change Arya's character in a similar way to Sansa?

Its possible. Arya may think such things as "in the way" of her trying to survive and junk, but who knows. Things do change for girls when puberty hits.

[Gertrude]

I don't think the actual scene was unnecessary, but I could definitely do without that phrase.

[Castel]

Agree. Fat Pink Mast was totally unnecessary (and imo kind of an unrealistic cliche, I mean c'mon, 'fat nerd loses virginity to hot girl'). Is a girl like Gilly (especially considering the molestation she suffered) really going to relentlessly, forcefully pursue sex with ol' fat, nervous Samwell?

• 
  
  

Does Gilly think about how she was molested? It's been a while since I read her chapters but her concerns were less with herself and more with her child. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't react like we'd expect.

As for Fat Pink Mast. It's like Darkstar: a mountain out of a molehill. Honestly I don't even know why it gets so much attention.

[The Lord's Kiss]

Asexual: Areo Hotah

ETA: unless you count whatever he does with his ax as sex *shivers*

[Castel]

Cersei's scene with Lady Merryweather was an interesting one. It wasnt so much "hey lets have two ladies going at it!" as much as it was insight to Cersei's character and how she perceives herself. Dominating another woman in particular. Also note that Cersei did not really enjoy the event which tells me that shes not really full on bisexual.

Cersei's scene was about trying to capture the feeling of power that she thought that Robert got. Or at least that's how I read it. Her goals were never purely sexual so of course, it can't be proof that she's bisexual.

[Hear Us Roar]

Cersei's scene was about trying to capture the feeling of power that she thought that Robert got. Or at least that's how I read it. Her goals were never purely sexual so of course, it can't be proof that she's bisexual.

Yeah and she was not in to it after realizing she wasn't feeling powerful.

[butterbumps!]

As for Fat Pink Mast. It's like Darkstar: a mountain out of a molehill. Honestly I don't even know why it gets so much attention.

Ok, I don't really talk about the FPM that often, but I actually find it uproarious, in part because Roose Bolton's pet leeches are always described as "fat" and "pink." i.e. Arya even says something to the effect of Roose having plump pink babies covered in fat pink leeches. The 10 year old in me somehow overlays the image of these two (independently kind of hilarious) things into a ball of absurdity because of the association.

[Dr. Pepper]

The ones i felt were unnecessary were like Asha and Qarl the Maid. Yeah it was a bit of an insight to Asha's character but it seemed pretty superfluous. Theon and the captain's daughter was even more unnecessary.

I disagree with at least that Asha and Qarl's scene was gratuitous. I think there were more Asha character revelations in that scene than in any other preceding it. Our first encounter with Asha was sexual in nature but it was quickly followed by scenes of her appearing to be snarky and cruel and doing it all to gain daddy's favor. We see her later nearly taunting Theon for his misdeeds at Winterfell. Though there is a sense of confidence and strength, it's quite faint, probably because she's viewed through Theon's POV and thus our perception of her is colored.

However, nothing tells us more about her character than that bit of role-playing. On the surface, it tells us that she is not trapped by the norms of her society. She's sexually liberated, which is a big deal when it comes to women's rights. But the fact that it was a role-play sexual encounter is quite important. Though she is the submissive in that scene, that role has a lot of power. It's clear that consent was given, if not in that moment at least at some point prior. Theon's perception that her swagger was just for show is sort of shattered here. She is Qarl's leader, but she is confident enough in her position of power to relinquish it in a place where she's very vulnerable. That she has men around her who respect her despite her atypical preferences in the bedroom is a big deal, especially in a place like Westeros.

I think Theon's time with the captain's daughter was just as necessary in terms of character development, though I haven't read it recently enough to fully articulate my thoughts.