Sexuality in ASoIaF

[Sword of the Morning Wood]

I think it's interesting that homosexuality doesn't seemed to be looked down upon nearly as much in Westeros as it was in medieval Europe. It's seems almost public knowledge that Renly was a homosexual, but the only thing thing people did with that knowledge was to throw a few snide remarks. If he was living in a homophobic society, his homosexuality would have been a great argument against him being King in ACoK, but no one ever used it, not even his biggest detractors.

I wonder how much it was looked down on. Although Renly's relationship with Loras is pretty much common knowledge at court, he doesn't flaunt it or isn't seen to let it affect his decisions much. I don't know what gay stereotypes were like back then but he also doesn't seem to fall into any negative gay stereotype we have now. I wonder of that would be pretty much ignored if, otherwise, he was a well thought of individual.

Edward II of England was obviously rumored to be gay for a long time but he openly indulged and bestowed favours on his lovers at court and was generally seen to be a weak and incompetent King. It would have been interesting to know how things would gone for him if he'd been a little bit more discreet and a bit of a better King.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I think it's interesting that homosexuality doesn't seemed to be looked down upon nearly as much in Westeros as it was in medieval Europe.

That's true. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say we should keep in mind that homosexuality has been regarded very differently throughout human history. Westerosi gods do not seem to be so very interested in what's going on in their follower's bedchambers, so there's not really a reason for the taboo against homosexuality to become as strong as in medieval Europe.

[Castel]

You know, I've seen some people make a case for Stannis being asexual. I don't know much about asexuality, but I think it's fairly clear that he does have a sexual relationship with Melisandre.

Stannis is probably less asexual and more just plain uncomfortable around women. It might amount to more or less the same thing if the man has other interests, but as we've seen when someone gets close he's like most people.

I hadn't really thought about the lack of actual lesbian characters before. It could be that GRRM hasn't considered it/doesn't want to write them in/doesn't think it makes sense for any of the characters. It could also be that female homosexuality was still far more taboo in the not too distant past than male homosexuality.

Do we even have exclusively male homosexual characters in the story? Because we have confirmation that Renly and Loras were lovers, not that they were exclusively homosexual. The problem is that this can become a terribly arbitrary topic. Does Renly being able to get an erection when he has to consummate his marriage make him not exclusively gay? It's a thing that can only be shown through POV and Martin hasn't given us one. I just think that most people then didn't think about things that way, especially when they were under pressure to have kids and wives.

That's true. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say we should keep in mind that homosexuality has been regarded very differently throughout human history. Westerosi gods do not seem to be so very interested in what's going on in their follower's bedchambers, so there's not really a reason for the taboo against homosexuality to become as strong as in medieval Europe.

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That and the church is much weaker I think

[Lady Lea]

Do we even have exclusively male homosexual characters in the story? Because we have confirmation that Renly and Loras were lovers, not that they were exclusively homosexual. The problem is that this can become a terribly arbitrary topic. Does Renly being able to get an erection when he has to consummate his marriage make him not exclusively gay? It's a thing that can only be shown through POV and Martin hasn't given us one. I just think that most people then didn't think about things that way, especially when they were under pressure to have kids and wives.

I don't know if we have confirmation on anyone being exclusively homosexual. We see Loras and Renly who had a relationship (I don't believe Taena's story btw), JonCon had a crush on Rhaegar, and there's Satin I think. Oberyn is bisexual, I think Lady Nym is either a lesbian or bi. Anyone else?

[Winter's Knight]

I don't know if we have confirmation on anyone being exclusively homosexual. We see Loras and Renly who had a relationship (I don't believe Taena's story btw), JonCon had a crush on Rhaegar, and there's Satin I think. Oberyn is bisexual, I think Lady Nym is either a lesbian or bi. Anyone else?

There was one couple on the Wall in Dance: Alf of Rummywudd and Garth:

“Nor Garth,” said the queen’s man she knew as Alf of Runnymudd, one of the first to exchange his seven false gods for the truth of R’hllor. “Garth’s too clever for them wildlings.”

“How many?” Mully asked.

“Three,” Jon told them. “Black Jack, Hairy Hal, and Garth.”

Alf of Runnymudd let out a howl loud enough to wake sleepers in the Shadow Tower. “Put him to bed and get some mulled wine into him,” Jon told Three-Finger Hobb.

[Scipio Africanus]

I don't know if we have confirmation on anyone being exclusively homosexual. We see Loras and Renly who had a relationship (I don't believe Taena's story btw), JonCon had a crush on Rhaegar, and there's Satin I think. Oberyn is bisexual, I think Lady Nym is either a lesbian or bi. Anyone else?

Whoresbane Umber reputedly gutted a male whore in Oldtown.

Then there was the pederast (no not LF, well...not yet) Septon that the BWB strung up. He liked little boys. Speaking of which, Lyn Cobray also liked young boys and is most likely a homosexual. A lot of shipmates on Big Vic's love boat seem to like boys at least when ze womin aren't around.

[Lummel]

Also in the Second Sons there is the Kings Landinger who has a very special 'friend' back home and another man with a butt boy of his own.

[Lady Lea]

Oh, and didn't Euron molest Aeron or something?

[lilenadheas]

Wrt westeros I views in homosexuality, i'm not sure it is quite as benevolently accepted as we have been led to believe. Cersei's reaction to tommen hanging around loras is vitriolic to say the least. Comments about "real men" abound. Then look at the treatment of satin and jon's working relationship by Bowen marsh and others. Finally, victarion and the maester

[lilenadheas]

Ugh, stupid phone....

Anyway, victarion and the treatment of the master and perfumed boys. I think the roman standard of dominance and submission are more akin to the westeros i attitude. Men buggering are not gay, they are displaying dominance. You have to be a "catcher" so to speak, and If you are, you are looked down upon.

At least, that's the impression I got

[Castel]

Ugh, stupid phone....

Anyway, victarion and the treatment of the master and perfumed boys. I think the roman standard of dominance and submission are more akin to the westeros i attitude. Men buggering are not gay, they are displaying dominance. You have to be a "catcher" so to speak, and If you are, you are looked down upon.

At least, that's the impression I got

Yeah. I think being the "pitcher" may be seen as deviant behavior, but it would be acceptable deviance, while the catcher is considered submissive and lacking honor. The perceived submission and unmanliness would be a big problem.

Honestly, the Romans are weird. I can't pin them down. Either they hate it, or they hate catching or they don't hate catching or they like pitching and hate homosexual sex among equals//

Cersei's reaction to tommen hanging around loras is vitriolic to say the least.

Cersei doesn't even seem to think about homosexuality when trying to pry Tommen from Loras. It's her paranoia acting up. She's just afraid that Tommen will like Loras. (Not like that)

[Lady Lea]

I agree with lilenadheas. Cersei seemed afraid Loras would seduce Tommen or something.

"Someone has to teach him."

Someone will, but it will not be you. "Pray, who did you squire for, ser?" she asked sweetly. "Lord Renly, was it not?"

"I had that honor."

"Yes, I thought as much." Cersei had seen how tight the bonds grew between squires and the knights they served. She did not want Tommen growing close to Loras Tyrell. The Knight of Flowers was no sort of man for any boy to emulate.

[Reader of All Things Good]

Then there was the pederast (no not LF, well...not yet) Septon that the BWB strung up. He liked little boys. Speaking of which, Lyn Cobray also liked young boys and is most likely a homosexual. A lot of shipmates on Big Vic's love boat seem to like boys at least when ze womin aren't around.

I hope you are not implying that pedophilia is the same as homosexuality. Because they are two entirely separate sexual identities.

[lilenadheas]

Yeah. I think being the "pitcher" may be seen as deviant behavior, but it would be acceptable deviance, while the catcher is considered submissive and lacking honor. The perceived submission and unmanliness would be a big problem.

Honestly, the Romans are weird. I can't pin them down. Either they hate it, or they hate catching or they don't hate catching or they like pitching and hate homosexual sex among equals//

Cersei doesn't even seem to think about homosexuality when trying to pry Tommen from Loras. It's her paranoia acting up. She's just afraid that Tommen will like Loras. (Not like that)

Yeah the Romans were all over the place. Either you're for or against. Make up your damn minds. Weirdos.

As for Cersei, the first time I read it, I thought that too, but as Lady Lea has quoted, there is a hostile homophobic undercurrent. I just finished rereading ACOK (heh), and she seems to disparage Loras quite a bit, with snide homophobic remarks or petty thoughts. I'll try find more quotes, i know there were quite a few.

[Winter's Knight]

Yes, I had the same impression of Cersei's remarks wrt Loras as well-interestingly, she'd have watched the bond grow almost in front of her right? If they initiated romantic relationships when Loras was still young and, she may have had a reason to be fearful

Homosexuality is not really accepted in Westoros: one must remember that Renly is brother to the king and Loras is the favourite son of a powerful lord, people are not likely to bash them to their face or even out loud. And their relationship was clandestine.

Take Oberyn for instance-his bisexuality is hinted at in whispers but never out loud.

[Jaime's Wench]

Homosexuality is really not explored in the series at all. You don't receive a huge sense of homophobia from the characters, like you would perhaps if it was a medieval Christian world. Loras and Renly were a kind of 'leaked secret' but nobody seemed to hold it against Renly as a contender. He continued to be very popular among the people and nobility of High Garden/The Reach.

[Headless Jeyne]

I don't know if we have confirmation on anyone being exclusively homosexual. We see Loras and Renly who had a relationship (I don't believe Taena's story btw), JonCon had a crush on Rhaegar, and there's Satin I think. Oberyn is bisexual, I think Lady Nym is either a lesbian or bi. Anyone else?

Most people think Blackfish is gay, but it's not stated outright.

Eh, I think it is splitting hairs to say there is no confirmation these characters are gay (Loras, Renly, Jon Con etc...) I think it's pretty safe to assume they are. Most guys who are attracted to other guys are gay, not bisexual, and in the case of Oberyn the text makes it pretty clear he is bi. There is nothing in the text to suggest any of the other characters are attracted to women as well (well, maybe Satin, we really don't know anything about him...)

[ServantOnIce]

Cersei's scene with Lady Merryweather was an interesting one. It wasnt so much "hey lets have two ladies going at it!" as much as it was insight to Cersei's character and how she perceives herself. Dominating another woman in particular. Also note that Cersei did not really enjoy the event which tells me that shes not really full on bisexual.

I thought she liked Myrish Swamps? :cool4:

[James Arryn]

It needs to be understood that the medieval perceptions on sexuality were premised on Judeo-Christian ethos.

Prior to/outside that lens, perception on sexuality involves an entirely different mindset. It wasn't regarded as something definative or categorical. Someone mentions Oberyn's sexuality being 'whispered, not shouted' or similar, but that mindset itself is indicative of an idea that it would somehow be confrontational.

No more than someone's tastes within a heterosexual sphere, a non J-C person's identity wouldn't be shaped by whether or not your tastes cross the gender barrier. As people have mentioned, far more significant was how dominant or submissive a person was. But in the ancient world, for example, homosexuality as an inclusive concept was so common that it wasn't even something that needed to be proclaimed or chalenged.

It's not until you get to the J-C cultural dominance that rightness or wrongness is even assosciated, let alone guilt, repression, stereotypes, etc. But then again J-C ideas of orthodoxy permeated so many spheres which were previously not involved as ethical or moral issues; sexuality was just one of them.

Modern ideas are so shaped by that process that even many who see themselves as divorced from religious standards unwittingly incorporate that mindset even unto the question of what needs to be right or wrong, let alone what is.

[Castel]

I hope you are not implying that pedophilia is the same as homosexuality. Because they are two entirely separate sexual identities.

Liking young boys doesn't necessarily make you a pedophile. If they're sexually mature you might well be a homosexual with a particular type. Or a bisexual/homosexual ephebophile. Goddamnit,there are far too many categories for this stuff! It depends on how young they are.